PC Wealth By Level

[asphen fox]

Just wondering... The PC Wealth By Level table in DMG already takes in to account the stuff that you spent in your "previous adventures" right? So if you, let's say, have a flashback where you use a character of lower level, you can use the PC Wealth By Level and use all the money you can get in that level with any adverse effects on what you already bought before doing the flashback, right?

[Tsotha-lanti]

I can't see how the flashback could change the already-established present/future, so the answer to your confusing question is probably yes.

[Ceaon]

There are no hard rules for this, since a flashback poses several problems (death, new items that disappear again etcetera), but the Wealth by level doesn't include used up items like potions or wands. It is the wealth a PC of that level should have available to him at that current level.
So I'd suggest that during a flashback a character (or the DM) chooses the items he most recently acquired (after the level of the character during the flashback), gets rid of those, and maybe add some potions or wands of that level to compensate.

[Fixer]

So, wait, if you suddenly find yourself flashing back to your former self and you get yourself killed... what effect would that have on causality?

OH NOZ! Time/Space Continuum is destroyed. Please roll up new characters while the GM hits the reset button.

[shadowfox]

The WBL table represents what the PCs should have at that level. I think it's based on average treasure from averaged challenges. Personally, I'd assume that PCs can make more money than what's on the table usually, and, therefore, can afford disposable items. Also, it might be assumed that they Craft items as well, and maybe even have a profession or other skill to make odd change with.

If you're going to do a flashback, and are planning on the PCs being active, have them make their character at that lower level and buy accordingly.

[Saph]

So, wait, if you suddenly find yourself flashing back to your former self and you get yourself killed... what effect would that have on causality?

My guess it it means you got a Raise Dead. :)

- Saph

[bosssmiley]

Just wondering... The PC Wealth By Level table in DMG already takes in to account the stuff that you spent in your "previous adventures" right? So if you, let's say, have a flashback where you use a character of lower level, you can use the PC Wealth By Level and use all the money you can get in that level with any adverse effects on what you already bought before doing the flashback, right?

Clarify this please. Your wording leaves the intent of your question vague. Do you mean a narrative flashback?

(from what I can infer) You appear to be confusing narrative continuity with game mechanics. Check with your DM what his take on WBL in character flashbacks, time travel situations, or due to level loss is. Most will take the (reasonable) position that things expended in a ~narrative flashback~ do not count against your characters WBL in the normal timescale.

[AslanCross]

I'm in Asphen Fox's party. The DM allowed him to have a "past adventure" where he assassinates someone so he can qualify for the assassin level he just took. Due to our lousy schedule, we're barely even able to keep up with our current campaign (Eyes of the Lich Queen) and our DM doesn't want to drag everyone into his mission. She's running a solo adventure for him where he can actually qualify.

[ericgrau]

I think it's a rough guideline for the DM to shoot for.

If I were DMing I think I'd try to set things up so player would probably get around WBL, but depending on what happened they might go above or below. Hopefully not by too much. I'd do something similar with your flashback and it seems like there are also be meta-game issues similar to time travel to deal with.

[Fax Celestis]

...but the Wealth by level doesn't include used up items like potions or wands.

...Since when?

[Person_Man]

I personally hate flashbacks as a narrative device. But that's just because I watch too much anime.

[vegetalss4]

...Since when?

i believe he means, that it don't include used up items like potions or wands. that already have been used.

[Fax Celestis]

i believe he means, that it don't include used up items like potions or wands. that already have been used.

Aaaaaaaaaaah. Yeah, okay.

[Wanderlust]

I'm in Asphen Fox's party. The DM allowed him to have a "past adventure" where he assassinates someone so he can qualify for the assassin level he just took. Due to our lousy schedule, we're barely even able to keep up with our current campaign (Eyes of the Lich Queen) and our DM doesn't want to drag everyone into his mission. She's running a solo adventure for him where he can actually qualify.

Very cool idea. I once played a character who took the Hunter of the Dead PrC, and this would have been a great way to roleplay the whole 'you must have been drained by an undead' prerequisite. As it played, we joked that my character had been bitten by a zombie squirrel in a park. I think the ongoing jokes were worth it.

[monty]

And this is why time travel makes people's heads explode.

[Keld Denar]

I personally hate flashbacks as a narrative device. But that's just because I watch too much anime.

I think they make 12 step programs for that.

Regardless, WBL is more of a guideline for gauging PC strength in comparison to the monsters. If PCs have excess of WBL, then the DM should either ramp up challenges slightly or deduct wealth. If the PCs are behind the WBL scale, the DM should reduce the challenge of encounters, due to the fact that things like AB vs AC, DCs vs Saves, and the ability to overcome DR can make a big difference in monster difficulty.

Thus, you aren't "entitled" to WBL. Instead, its more of a yardstick by which you measure your relative power with relation to level appropriate challenges.

Naturally, optimization of build/play style and openess of item access skews this a fair bit as well. Stronger character archtypes (wizards/druids/etc) can generally make due better with less, but pretty much everyone is gear dependant to some point, thus the underlying reason why Vow of Poverty is Terribad(TM).

[MCerberus]

I think Keld hit the nail on the head. It's not something that should be religiously followed. If the PCs get ahead/behind of the curve enough to be a detriment to game play, you can have an extra treasure chest filled with goodies or Rust Monsters.

[Mando Knight]

So, wait, if you suddenly find yourself flashing back to your former self and you get yourself killed... what effect would that have on causality?

OH NOZ! Time/Space Continuum is destroyed. Please roll up new characters while the GM hits the reset button.

Snake! You can't do that! You'll create a Time Paradox! You'll change the future!

You either end up with this, or this.

[Fax Celestis]

Stronger character archtypes (wizards/druids/etc) can generally make due better with less, but pretty much everyone is gear dependant to some point, thus the underlying reason why Vow of Poverty is Terribad(TM).

To be fair, there are some cases in which VoP is usable and even actually fairly strong. These cases are usually where the class in question is essentially able to Make Their Own Stuff Without It Actually Being Gear (such as, say, a Totemist or Incarnate).

[JaxGaret]

Why exactly do you even need to run this extra solo session? The outcome is not in doubt, and it doesn't affect the current predicament of your characters, does it?

If you're doing it just for fun, that's understandable, go right ahead. But it's really not necessary. You could simply say "My character killed a guy offscreen for the Assassin's Guild."

Or, better yet, your DM can wise up and drop roleplaying requirements such as those.

[monty]

To be fair, there are some cases in which VoP is usable and even actually fairly strong. These cases are usually where the class in question is essentially able to Make Their Own Stuff Without It Actually Being Gear (such as, say, a Totemist or Incarnate).

Or druids, but that should go without saying.

Really, you can say "druids are good with X," and as long as X doesn't nerf their class features, it's true for anything.

[Fax Celestis]

Really, you can say "druids are good with X," and as long as X doesn't nerf their class features, it's true for anything.

Druid: The Other White Meat Factotum.

[AslanCross]

The whole thing's planned out already, might as well go ahead with it. Just that Asphen here is being reeeeally paranoid about the whole thing (he always is, despite being the most fastidious optimizer in the party).

[asphen fox]

Actually, It's Ultimate Geasser who's the ultimate optimizer in the group. I just like keeping my character above average. <_<

[Sir Giacomo]

i believe he means, that it don't include used up items like potions or wands. that already have been used.

? Of course used up charged items count against your wbl. Say, by level 5 you used the complete 50 charges of your wand of enlarge , then the 750gp would of course be included in your wbl of 10th level.

- Giacomo

[Douglas]

The WBL table on page 135 is actually derived from the numbers in the table on page 54 of the DMG. The numbers in that table make it clear that characters are assumed to be using a certain amount of expendable items, and those expenses are not part of expected WBL. For example, 1st level characters are expected to use up 100 gp before reaching level 2, 5th level characters are expected to use up 1332 gp between reaching levels 5 and 6, 10th level should use up 2329 gp during that level, and a 19th level character is supposed to use 23283 gp worth of expendable items before reaching level 20. In total a new level 20 character is expected according to the table to have used 120,453 gp worth of expendable magic items during his entire career up to that point. None of this is included in his 760,000 gp WBL.

[only1doug]

? Of course used up charged items count against your wbl. Say, by level 5 you used the complete 50 charges of your wand of enlarge , then the 750gp would of course be included in your wbl of 10th level.

- Giacomo

How on earth would you adjudicate that for someone generating a new character to join an existing party?

roll up a 12th level character and subtract the amount of used charged items from your wealth by level. What do you mean how much would you have used, its obvious, all 12th level monks have used exactly 54567732 wand charges, which leaves you with 3 gp to spend on equipment.

[Riffington]

First, Keld Denar is completely correct. WBL is just one means of estimating how tough of a challenge the characters can handle.

That said, there's a strong case to be made either direction regarding wealth:
On the one hand, you want to encourage players to hang on to their stuff. They should not feel "oh, if I use up my wand, then I'll just get more treasure later to compensate". Or (worse yet), "Gosh, I better get rid of this flaming sword. That way, the DM will have to give me an item that's more useful to my build"

On the other hand, if players don't have an item, then it's obviously not helping them stand up to stronger challenges.

Regarding this "flashback", I wouldn't count anything against WBL. Maybe he had a different magic knife and left it in his victim. That kind of dramatic behavior should be encouraged during flashbacks (more than during regular play).