[4e] Drowning: man wut?

[Inyssius Tor]

So: you can survive for thirty full rounds underwater without any trouble. After that, you must make an Endurance check (DC 20+amount of rounds over 30), or lose a healing surge.

Completely independent of that, you must make a different Endurance check (DC 20) to "maintain", every round you take damage.

What does "maintain" mean?

Is it just the "...or lose a healing surge" thing again?

Am I interpreting that right?

[Oracle_Hunter]

OK, the DMG section in full.

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An adventurer can handle three weeks without food, three days without water, and three minutes without air outside of strenuous situations. After that, such deprivation is a significant test of a PCs’ stamina.

At the end of the time period (three weeks, three days, or three minutes), the character must succeed on a DC 20 Endurance check. Success buys the character another day (if hungry or thirsty), or round (if unable to breathe). Then the check is repeated at DC 25, then at DC 30, and so on. When a character fails the check, he loses one healing surge and must continue to make checks. A character without healing surges who fails a check takes damage equal to his level.

In strenuous situations, such as combat, going without air is much harder. A character holding his breath during underwater combat, for example, must make a DC 20 Endurance check at the end of his turn in a round where he takes damage.

Note this important Errata though:

In the table, replace “Hold breath (each round after 5): 10 + 1 per round” with “Hold breath (each round after 3 minutes): 20 + 5 per round.”

Add to table “Hold breath (maintain in a round you take damage): 20”

So, first you get 3 minutes of free held breath. Then, on Round 31 you take a DC 25 Endurance check. Round 32, this becomes a DC 30 and so on.

If you succeed on your check on a given round (or you are still in your first 30 rounds) but you take damage in combat, you must make an additional DC 20 Endurance check at the end of that round.

If you fail any of these checks, you lose 1 healing surge. In the event you lack a healing surge lose, you take damage equal to your level.

So long as you need to hold your breath, you keep taking escalating Endurance checks until you die.

[Inyssius Tor]

Ah, got it. Thought so.

Next time, on man wut theater: the Stealth rules!

[skywalker]

So... A level 3 fighter with 48 HP (toughness, 16 CON) and durable (the feat) survives 59 rounds underwater without making any checks... Correct?

When someone reaches 0 HP from drowning, do they go unconscious? And do they start making death saving throws?

EDIT(In response to your edit): I thought they might simply die. They have been drowning, after all. Conceivably, you could stave off death forever, simply by making your death saving throws (and with the bonuses some characters get to saving throws, it's not inconceivable).

I don't think taking damage triggers an endurance check itself. Because once you've started taking damage... You're out of saving throws.

Personally, I don't think it's that high. Only 6 minutes, which I'm sure plenty of people can do. The world record for longest breath held underwater without breathing oxygen beforehand is 10 minutes and a few seconds. Now, that's static, they aren't doing anything during that time. But 6 minutes doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility on a hero renowned for toughness like the 4e D&D fighter.

It was more an exercise in the math and also an attempt to gear up for running Thunderspire Labyrinth (there's an underwater river with no ability to surface for a while).

[Inyssius Tor]

...yes? Why wouldn't they? Damage is damage.

EDIT: And yes, that is awfully high.

EDIT EDIT: Actually, wait one second. The damage you take from drowning should itself trigger a "hold breath after taking damage" check (right?), which would bring your super-unlucky Threepwood's life span down to a slightly less crazy level.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Read the DMG quote again; "strenuous situations" trigger the additional DC 20 check. Drowning alone is not a particularly strenuous situation, while underwater combat is.

As for the Fighter:

He starts taking checks after 30 rounds. If he wants to voluntarily fail them then he starts losing 1 Healing Surge per round. Once he is out of Healing Surges, he starts losing HP and will begin making Death Saves in 16 turns (if he takes no other damage).

Yes, this means that it's very hard to drown to death a character, but think about what kind of shape a Bloodied, 0 Surge Fighter is going to be in once he's fished out. He's done for the day, at least.

As for infinite death saves - well, as far as I know nobody can get +9 to Saving Throws forever. Bad comes to worse, some water animal can start gnawing on your face until you get to Negative Bloodied.

[Kurald Galain]

Conceivably, you could stave off death forever, simply by making your death saving throws (and with the bonuses some characters get to saving throws, it's not inconceivable).

I don't think it's possible to consistently get more than a +3 on saving throws so far.

Personally, I don't think it's that high. Only 6 minutes, which I'm sure plenty of people can do.

No they can't. It takes some training to get to two minutes. Given the overall power level of 4E, six minutes is frankly ludicrous. Then again, so is going three days without water, or six without food, all without getting any adverse condition at all. Chalk it down to another instance of WOTC not doing their research, or for that matter, their math.

Actually, wait one second. The damage you take from drowning should itself trigger a "hold breath after taking damage" check (right?),

That's probably not what they intended. But it's not very well written so could conceivably be read that way.

[Oracle_Hunter]

No they can't. It takes some training to get to two minutes. Given the overall power level of 4E, six minutes is frankly ludicrous. Then again, so is going three days without water, or six without food, all without getting any adverse condition at all. Chalk it down to another instance of WOTC not doing their research, or for that matter, their math.

Dude, at the end of that six minutes you're basically moments from death, not A-OK. Sure it's a little action hero-y but we're not talking about walking though lava or something silly like that.

Oh, and I forgot to include this:

A character with 0 or fewer hit points who continues to suffer from one of these effects keeps taking damage as described above until he dies or is rescued.

So at the end of 6 minutes, the Fighter would have 8 rounds (1 1/3 minutes) before hitting Negative Bloodied and dying, death saves or no.

[Arros Winhadren]

It's a good thing Threepwood was already mentioned so that I didn't have to do it. Of course I must now make a 4e rogue who can hold his breath for 10 minutes.

[Kurald Galain]

Dude, at the end of that six minutes you're basically moments from death, not A-OK.

No, at the end of six minutes is the first moment you start feeling any adverse effects at all. (edit) fine, three minutes, then, for any character no matter how untrained. Still ridiculous.

This is essentially WOTC saying "don't worry about drowning, ever, just like you don't have to worry about food, sleep or light, ever".

[Oracle_Hunter]

No, at the end of six minutes is the first moment you start feeling any adverse effects at all.

This is essentially WOTC saying "don't worry about drowning, ever, just like you don't have to worry about food, sleep or light, ever".

No, three minutes is your grace period. Here, I'll repost:

Spoiler

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An adventurer can handle three weeks without food, three days without water, and three minutes without air outside of strenuous situations. After that, such deprivation is a significant test of a PCs’ stamina.

At the end of the time period (three weeks, three days, or three minutes), the character must succeed on a DC 20 Endurance check. Success buys the character another day (if hungry or thirsty), or round (if unable to breathe). Then the check is repeated at DC 25, then at DC 30, and so on. When a character fails the check, he loses one healing surge and must continue to make checks. A character without healing surges who fails a check takes damage equal to his level.

In strenuous situations, such as combat, going without air is much harder. A character holding his breath during underwater combat, for example, must make a DC 20 Endurance check at the end of his turn in a round where he takes damage.

The very next 6 seconds, he's taking a DC 20 Endurance check or losing a Healing Surge. And then a DC 25, and then a DC 30... well, I think you see how little time a Heroic character can hope to survive unscathed past the 3 minute mark.

Hell, let's take a naked 1st level Dwarven Paladin (18 CON, Durable) and dunk him in water. If anyone is tanky, it's him.

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Round 31: DC 20 vs. +11 Endurance (9+); HP 23, Surges 16
Round 32: DC 25 vs. +11 Endurance (14+)
Round 33: DC 30 vs. +11 Endurance (19+)
Round 34: DC 35 vs. +11 Endurance (24+)

So, exactly 3 and 2/5 minutes after being submerged, the Dwarf begins to irrevocably drown. 16 rounds later (1 3/5 minutes) he's on his last legs with 0 Surges. 23 rounds later (2 3/10 minutes) he's unconscious and he will last no more than another 11 rounds (1 1/10 minutes).

If everything goes perfectly, the toughest 1st level character is dead in 84 rounds - 8 2/5 minutes. A 1st level wizard (CON 14 to be generous) is absolutely dead in 7 1/5 minutes. Hours this ain't.

EDIT:
Thought experiment - 10th level naked Dwarven Paladin in a dunk tank.

Spoiler

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Baseline = +16 Endurance, 77 HP, 16 Surges
Starts Drowning at Round 35; loses 10 HP per round
-3 HP at Round 42, -43 HP at Round 46.
Optimistic Survival Time: 4 3/5 minutes.

that's a perverse result.

Apparently you learn Super Drowning Skills as you level. Doesn't anyone at WotC check the maths for their systems?

[Inyssius Tor]

Kurald: Um, where in god's name are you getting that from?

"A level 3 fighter with 48 HP (toughness, 16 CON) and durable (the feat) survives 59 rounds underwater without making any checks... Correct?"

He gets 30 rounds for free, after which he starts losing saves like he built a temple to Lady Luck.

His +3 Constitution modifier and +2 feat bonus give him 14 surges, bringing it up to 44 rounds.

He then starts losing three HP a round. By round 60, even if we disregard the extra-check-if-you're-damaged bit, he is unconscious at 0 HP with no surges.

That's not "no ill effects".

That is, in point of fact, quite a bit closer to "butt****ed."

[Colmarr]

I just re-read this section, and am a little confused:

Success buys the character another day (if hungry or thirsty), or round (if unable to breathe). Then the check is repeated at DC 25, then at DC 30, and so on. When a character fails the check, he loses one healing surge and must continue to make checks. A character without healing surges who fails a check takes damage equal to his level.

Nowhere does it say that the bolded checks are made 1/day or 1/round (an argument could be made that that is what the errata means, but I'm not sure that argument is rock-solid).

It is entirely possible that if you fail a check to hold your breath, you lose a healing surge and immediately make another check, and continue doing so until you succeed at a check (potentially blowing through all your surges and hp in a single round of failed checks).

To clarify, in round 31 you make DC 20 Endurance checks until you pass one. Each one you fails costs you a healing surge until you have none left, then they cost you hp equal to your level. When you pass a check, you're safe until round 32, at which point the process starts again; only this time the DC is 25...

In other words, you've got your 30 free rounds, but if you're level 1 and untrained in endurance, you'll likely be dead in the next round or so (because you can't make Endurance checks that high).

Opinions?

[Tsotha-lanti]

Opinions?

Because there is no indication that the frequency changes, there is no reason to assume that the frequency changes. Unless previous information is overturned, it applies.

[Asbestos]

No, at the end of six minutes is the first moment you start feeling any adverse effects at all.

This is essentially WOTC saying "don't worry about drowning, ever, just like you don't have to worry about food, sleep or light, ever".

Where do people get this when there are most certainly rules printed for all that and as people have demonstrated above you can totally die from it. Where is this idea coming from?

[Kurald Galain]

Where do people get this when there are most certainly rules printed for all that and as people have demonstrated above you can totally die from it. Where is this idea coming from?

Since the drowning rules make it practically impossible to drown, you don't have to worry about it (and likewise, other rules or the existence of very low level items make it practically impossible to starve, etc). Of course, restricting players just wouldn't be fun.

[Colmarr]

Because there is no indication that the frequency changes, there is no reason to assume that the frequency changes. Unless previous information is overturned, it applies.

But in this instance, there is no frequency. Nowhere does it say "take one check a round". It says (paraphrased) "take a check on round 31. If you succeed you don't need to check until round 32. If you fail then..."

[Oracle_Hunter]

Since the drowning rules make it practically impossible to drown, you don't have to worry about it (and likewise, other rules or the existence of very low level items make it practically impossible to starve, etc). Of course, restricting players just wouldn't be fun.

Really? Practically impossible?

How quickly would you like someone to drown if less than 10 minutes is "practically impossible?"

[Mad Wizard]

Where do people get this when there are most certainly rules printed for all that and as people have demonstrated above you can totally die from it. Where is this idea coming from?

I don't think that it's so much that you CAN'T drown, it's more that you can survive for a ridiculously long time without any problems. Most people can only hold their breath for about a minute underwater, IIRC, and that's without any strenuous activity.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I don't think that it's so much that you CAN'T drown, it's more that you can survive for a ridiculously long time without any problems. Most people can only hold their breath for about a minute underwater, IIRC, and that's without any strenuous activity.

Some Wiki for you.

Seems that untrained people hold for 1-2 minutes (longer in water) but trained folks can reach 9 minutes. Since nobody in D&D can actually hold their breath for 9 minutes, I'm willing to give them a pass for the extra minute. It was clearly added for the "Rule of Three" mnemonic they were trying for.

If you used the proposed Healing Surge Fix then everyone can hold for 3 minutes, and most can then go for another minute or two if forced before drowning. Drowning takes less than a minute once it starts.

Or, you can use the Improved Healing Surge Fix, which makes the Stress Save (Endurance DC 20) in addition to any other checks you made this round - potentially allowing for the loss of 2 surges per round. That basically cuts the post 3 minute period by half, and it can start working during the 3 minute period too.

[Kurald Galain]

Seems that untrained people hold for 1-2 minutes (longer in water) but trained folks can reach 9 minutes.

Really. And are they wearing plate armor at the time?

[Asbestos]

Really. And are they wearing plate armor at the time?

That would more affect ability to swim than say, ability to hold one's breath. You could probably put swimming with too much weight under that strenuous activity bit that gets special rules.

[FoE]

We're debating how long it would take for a person to drown under real-life circumstances in an alternate reality populated by self-regenerating trolls, fire-breathing dragons, living plants and walking dead people?

[Zeful]

Really. And are they wearing plate armor at the time?

They could and it would only effect their ability to swim, not hold their breath.

[Deepblue706]

We're debating how long it would take for a person to drown under real-life circumstances in an alternate reality populated by self-regenerating trolls, fire-breathing dragons, living plants and walking dead people?

It's called verisimilitude. Just because the game isn't realistic doesn't mean the mechanics should be completely departed from an appearance people can at least think to be based on reality.

However; I'm no expert on holding my breath, so I'm not going to speculate on the details.

[skywalker]

We're debating how long it would take for a person to drown under real-life circumstances in an alternate reality populated by self-regenerating trolls, fire-breathing dragons, living plants and walking dead people?

My original thought was that a fighter (who is presumably renowned throughout the region for being tough, he is a hero after all) who can hold his breath for that long isn't that strange. I can hold my breath 2 minutes, and I have asthma.

What I was originally trying to figure out was the lethality of the underground river in Thunderspire Labyrinth, where the river circulates through airless tunnels for 10 minutes before emptying into an underground lake. I was trying to figure out if it simply meant "going into the tunnels in this river means death" or if there was a way to conceivably survive. And the answer I got from my math was "possibly, but somebody better be there to fish your unconscious body out of that lake."

The Super Drowning Skills are really annoying, tho. I thought the 3rd level fighter lasted longer than the 4th... Really dumb.

[Reverent-One]

It's called verisimilitude. Just because the game isn't realistic doesn't mean the mechanics should be completely departed from an appearance people can at least think to be based on reality.

True, but from the sounds of it, it's not that a PC can survive longer than is possible in reality, just longer than most, which isn't too unbelievable. Adventurers are supposed to be better than the average person.

[Asbestos]

What I was originally trying to figure out was the lethality of the underground river in Thunderspire Labyrinth, where the river circulates through airless tunnels for 10 minutes before emptying into an underground lake. I was trying to figure out if it simply meant "going into the tunnels in this river means death" or if there was a way to conceivably survive. And the answer I got from my math was "possibly, but somebody better be there to fish your unconscious body out of that lake."

... Swim in the direction the water is flowing? That might knock a little bit of time off. It'd be like one of those watery races for your life though, like in Tomb Raider (the original, remember those watery tunnels? awful)

[Yakk]

Naw -- swimming would become strenuous activity, and wouldn't change you speed that much if the water is moving at any speed.