[3.5e] Epic PrC levels before character level 21?

[Thespianus]

My DM and I were discussing this the other day: Would it be "dangerous" to allow 10 level PrC-classes to progress beyond level 10 before the character reaches character level 21?

The reason this came up was that it seems kind of odd from a role playing perspective to force a dedicated Unseen Seer at character level 15 (say Rogue 3/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 10) to stop progressing as an Unseen Seer for 5 levels just to gain the epic levels required to continue as an Unseen Seer.

Also, if a gish character wanted to keep progressing as an Eldritch Knight one might just allow that, instead of forcing the character to go Eldritch Knight 10/Abjurant Champion X to keep the good BAB progression, etc.

But the question is if ignoring this rule from Epic Handbook, and allow PrC-class levels beyond 10 before Epic levels, will cause the game to explode, or something? What PrCs would cause the game to break? Would any?

Thanks for any input. :)

[BobVosh]

I never thought so, but I'm sure someone knows of a few PrC that it would just go OMG broken.

As for unseen seer...I doubt it.

[Crazy Scot]

I would agree with Bob in that they probably wouldn't be broken as long as certain precautions are followed. Precautions like not earning Epic feats or abilities usually only associated with epic characters before 21st level. If it is just a continued progression of a non-epic PrC, with no "epic" abilities, I personally don't see a problem with it, but would have to defer to the DM for their interpretation. If the DM doesn't want to go down that road, perhaps a home-brewed PrC could be spun up to fill the gap.

[Thespianus]

Yes, I forgot to say that no, there's no Epic stuff allowed before level 21, merely the "normal" progression for the PrCs, just continued beyond level 10.

So, the Eldritch Knight would continue to gain new spells at level 11, 12, 13, etc, with the same BAB progression as before he reached 10 levels of ElKn.

Basically, it would allow for Ftr1/Wiz5/ElKn14 instead of Ftr1/Wiz5/ElKn10/Abjurant Champion 4, or so.

Bounding from PrC to PrC to pick up various abilities might create very powerful characters, but I like the PrC to be a dedicated specialization for the character, and not just a way to get new abilities. Not that I dislike mixing PrCs, as long as it makes some kind of sense, but I kinda thought it felt wierd that there was such a limit on the 10 level PrCs: "No more Arcane Trickster for you! Come back when you've reached epic levels, then there's no problem at all!" ;)

My DM is thinking along the same lines, so it's likely that we'll house rule it like this, but before doing so, I figured I should check for opinions here. It would suck if we somehow would end up with a character that woke up one morning and realized he could break the world. :)

[Curmudgeon]

Oh, a whole bunch of prestige classes will cause the game to come off the rails if you progress past level 10 pre-Epic. The Ur-Priest would get new daily 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells with just one more level, for instance; that's way scary.

I'd exercise extreme caution in breaking this rule.

[Saph]

Oh, a whole bunch of prestige classes will cause the game to come off the rails if you progress past level 10 pre-Epic. The Ur-Priest would get new daily 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells with just one more level, for instance; that's way scary.

I doubt this'd be a problem for most games, to be honest. The abilities a PrC gets beyond level 10 are usually up to the DM anyway, as the vast majority of PrCs don't have epic progressions.

- Saph

[Thespianus]

Oh, a whole bunch of prestige classes will cause the game to come off the rails if you progress past level 10 pre-Epic. The Ur-Priest would get new daily 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells with just one more level, for instance; that's way scary.

I'd exercise extreme caution in breaking this rule.

Yeah, I can see how PrCs that give out spells and spell progression in a class specific spell progression table ( instead of the "normal" version with "+1 level of existing spellcasting class"/level) could end up crazily strong. You're right, that type of spell progression needs to be curbed somehow.

It won't be a problem for our campaign, I'm pretty sure, as those PrCs probably won't be used, but yes, you are absolutely right that those classes needs to be managed one way or the other.

[Draz74]

Mystic Theurge would be a lot more popular if you could take it to L14.

[monty]

Mystic Theurge would be a lot more popular if you could take it to L14.

I doubt it. You're still a spell level and a half behind the pure caster the whole time.

[Thespianus]

In the case of the Ultimate Magus PrC, a Wiz3/Src2-character would end up casting like a 15th level Wizard and a 15th level Sorcerer (Wix3/Sorc2/UM15), with a caster level of 20, if my math is correct.

It doesn't sound insane, even if the amount of low level hurt the dude would be able to throw around is indeed impressive. ;)

But I'm sure this could be made to break like crazy if unleashed into the realm of the Char Op boards ;)

I guess the Eldritch Theurge (Wiz3/Warlock3/ET14) would rise to similar levels, Wizard 17/Warlock 16 or so. I can see that being vaguely on the strong side as well. ;)

[Dacia Brabant]

True Necromancer has 14 levels pre-epic so it's not unprecedented. I'd just be careful with it.

[Draz74]

I guess the Eldritch Theurge (Wiz3/Warlock3/ET14) would rise to similar levels, Wizard 17/Warlock 16 or so. I can see that being vaguely on the strong side as well. ;)

Hmmm ... doesn't Eldritch Disciple only need 1 level dipped in Warlock to get started? So it could end up casting like Cleric 19, Warlock 16. Yikes.

[Waspinator]

Mystic Theurge would be a lot more popular if you could take it to L14.

Mystic Theurge would be one of the easier prestige classes to extend. The ones that give various class features throughout their span would be hard due to having to basically invent new class features to fill the space. Mystic Theurge? Just extrapolate the attack bonus and save progressions and keep adding lines of "+1 arcane spellcasting / +1 divine". Outside of extreme cheese, you'll always still be behind both full-time wizards and clerics in their respective spellcasting "trees".

[Darth Stabber]

Had A problem like that with a Cerebramancer, Ended up taking the excess lvls in psion(shaper), since most of my wizard(div ban evo)) stuff was utility, buffs and no save type stuff(enervation in particular, actually had arcane thesis on that one). once epic hit I had to wait a while for epic spell casting, but epic psionics held it's ground wonderfully, and the two in concert are a joy to behold. If i could have continued cerebramancer I would have had a much easier time. As a GM I would allow gish prcs to continue progression, especially if the class in question has no other class abilities to confuse the issue. Me thinks i wand to try to make a gish incarnum/psionic prc. Just try to mash together the one they each have with arcane. That could work out very well. Yes i think that i just may brew that when i get my incarnum book back.

[tyckspoon]

Me thinks i wand to try to make a gish incarnum/psionic prc. Just try to mash together the one they each have with arcane. That could work out very well. Yes i think that i just may brew that when i get my incarnum book back.

For early styled gish classes like Mystic Theurge where the 'class features' generally consist of only '+1 existing class casting' you can pretty much just sub out any references to arcane/divine casting with psionics. This seems to be exactly how the Cerebremancer was created, in fact, and you could quickly make a divine version by leaving the divine half alone and replacing the arcane portion with manifesting instead. Eldritch Knight works well that way too (Psion/Slayer/Eldritch Knight makes a quick SRD-only gish if this is allowed, with BAB 16 and manifester level 18 by level 20. Although you could also run PsyWar/Slayer up to 20 and get a more martially-oriented version.) Later gish/theurge classes that have actual class features would be more challenging.