D'n'D Sci-Fi game with SAGA Edition Force Power rules.

[SilverSheriff]

Hi guys, I've been thinking of running a Science Fiction based Dungeons and Dragons game for a while now since my local DM has started running his, I've been thinking of taking the Star Wars Saga Edition Force Power rules and implementing them into my game instead of using Magic or the dreaded Psionics.

Do you think this is a viable option?

[archmage45]

Wait... you're planning on running a D&D style sci-fi game using the Saga Edition rules...

So you're playing Star Wars?

[Kiero]

Hi guys, I've been thinking of running a Science Fiction based Dungeons and Dragons game for a while now since my local DM has started running his, I've been thinking of taking the Star Wars Saga Edition Force Power rules and implementing them into my game instead of using Magic or the dreaded Psionics.

Do you think this is a viable option?

Why not use the whole system?

[SilverSheriff]

Wait... you're planning on running a D&D style sci-fi game using the Saga Edition rules...

So you're playing Star Wars?

No, I'm playing Dungeons and Dragons but implementing the Force Power Rules from page 90 of the Star Wars Saga Edition Handbook to replace Magic and Psionics.

Why not use the whole system?

Because Star Wars is boring with the whole galaxy being mapped out and all and Saga Edition is very, very limited and inflexible compared to other incarnations of the D20 system.

[Kiero]

Because Star Wars is boring with the whole galaxy being mapped out and all and Saga Edition is very, very limited and inflexible compared to other incarnations of the D20 system.

I said system, not setting. Saga Edition is far from inflexible compared to "you can't really multiclass or deviate from your core conceit" 4th edition.

[SilverSheriff]

I said system, not setting. Saga Edition is far from inflexible compared to "you can't really multiclass or deviate from your core conceit" 4th edition.

It's inflexible in a 'Homebrewing is hard because everything is pretty much covered in the 5 core classes as long as it sticks to a sci-fi basis' Saga Edition.

[Kiero]

It's inflexible in a 'Homebrewing is hard because everything is pretty much covered in the 5 core classes' Saga Edition.

That's a problem why? You can do it perfectly well with just four of the core classes, if "melee-focused mystic" doesn't fit what you're doing.

What's inflexible about four or five core modules that you can build together any way you like? That's a lot more flexible, IMO, than twenty marginally different classes, which can't really be customised, attempting to represent all the most common archetypes.

[Darth Stabber]

Agreed. Besides, all of the rules changes that were good in 4e are already in swse. Seriously don't reinvent the wheel, SWSE need not be so fluff important. If remove all references to wookies, millennium falcons and tatooine, you have a generic sci-fi, with force powers, doing anything else, and your working harder than you have to be.


Setting != System

[SilverSheriff]

maybe I'd actually like to have more than 19 skills?

It's inflexible in a 'Homebrewing is hard because everything is pretty much covered in the 5 core classes as long as it sticks to a sci-fi basis' Saga Edition.

fixed previous post.

[Kiero]

maybe I'd actually like to have more than 19 skills?

I'll leave aside the question of why you'd want more, rather than less skills, since that's about preferences.

What's so difficult with breaking some of them out into their components? They're not exactly opaque and difficult to gauge.

[Mando Knight]

Agreed. Besides, all of the rules changes that were good in 4e are already in swse.

Eh... SWSE doesn't have a good system for status effects. Everything falls under the Condition Track, which causes characters to drop to near-uselessness rather quickly if the opponent switches to stun attacks. (or a single Force Stun... one of my characters was a rather tough guy, but was knocked down three steps on the condition track by one Force Stun...)

Pants_Guy, you have a problem with the number of skills in SWSE? But they all make sense. (except for Intimidation and Diplomacy being rolled into one stat)

[Darth Stabber]

I'd like to ask why you would use 3.x skill system if you could possibly avoid it, the 3.5 d&d Skill list is believe is far to compartmentalized, and certain skill should just be combined. Examples
Spot + Listen + Search = perception
Hide + move silently = Stealth
Balance + climb + jump + tumble + swim + maybe escape artist = probably 2 skills.
Open Lock + disable device = security

starwars combines some skills quite well, and the new skill system is so much slicker than 3.5's, one of parts of 4e that is better than it's predecessor (not so many of those).

[SilverSheriff]

Because some people, me and my group included, like their biscuits nice, big and crunchy.

[Kiero]

Because some people, me and my group included, like their biscuits nice, big and crunchy.

Don't you mean small, overly-granular and abrasive?

[Darth Stabber]

So if you want to play with rules that are not designed for what you are trying to do, instead of a ruleset which is remarkable similar but more elegantly designed for your particular applications be my guest. I'm not going to call you stupid (though I may think it), but since you obviously have access to the SWSE rules, it seems re-goshdarn-diculous to shoe horn your game into the 3.5 system. Trust me there is every bit as much crunch in SWSE as there is in D&D, but everything is far more flexible. I would say with the way talents work in SWSE that there is actually more crunch per class than D&D has, since you get to make choices about class features as opposed to taking the rote class features of 3.5 classes. Yes you could use rogue as a scoundrel replacement, but scoundrel has more options than rogue in the first place. You could end up with similar results between the two classes, but scoundrel has the option to be something entirely different.

Useless rules != crunch
rules that allow for clever customization/optimization = crunch

There is nothing not crunchy about SWSE, and you stubborn adherence to keeping D&D rules in a scifi setting when wizards offers not one but 2 sci-fi d20 games (starwars and D20 Future) is nothing short of obstinate. It bothers me to no end when people make say that non D20 game aren't crunchy, when they just haven't figured out how to utilize the crunch.

Seriously, not meaning to flame or offend but unless there is a serious mitigating reason why D20 Future or SWSE wouldn't work, your just retreading the ground that wizards already made a nice paved rode through. But hey, it's not my game, if you want to waste your time and your players be my guest, I hope it works out well for you.

[SilverSheriff]

SAGA edition is a soggy biscuit at best compared to other d20 games, I constantly end up making characters that, at level 10, have 12 skills at the most and supplementing many skills with force-based talents most notably from the sense talent tree.
I also end up making him ridiculously powerful in skills, combat and force usage.
He often takes care of all the combat in a couple of rounds before other players have had a chance to properly plan their battle tactics.

I have an uncanny ability for optimization with the Saga rules and that might well have spread around by now which is exactly what I don't want, I want my players to be challenged.

[Mando Knight]

I constantly end up making characters that, at level 10, have 12 skills

I find that suspect... you do realize that characters don't get skills for multiclassing, right? I can't really see how you can optimize for combat, Force, and skillmonkeying simultaneously at level 10... care posting the build?

That said... standard D&D 3.5 rules can be broken even further than SAGA can... see Wizards, Clerics, and Druids.

[SilverSheriff]

I find that suspect... you do realize that characters don't get skills for multiclassing, right? I can't really see how you can optimize for combat, Force, and skill monkeying simultaneously at level 10... care posting the build?

I'll post the build soon.

That said... standard D&D 3.5 rules can be broken even further than SAGA can... see Wizards, Clerics, and Druids.

thats why I plan to take the Force Using Rules and transplant them into D'n'D 3.5 without Psionics or Magic.

[Mando Knight]

thats why I plan to take the Force Using Rules and transplant them into D'n'D 3.5 without Psionics or Magic.

And then you run into this peculiar problem: Force Powers are built to compete with soldier-types that wield 3 dice weapons with hundred-meter point blank ranges and autofire, not 1dx or 2d6 melee weapons. Force becomes the end-all, be-all like 3.5's magic/psionics are.

[SilverSheriff]

And then you run into this peculiar problem: Force Powers are built to compete with soldier-types that wield 3 dice weapons with hundred-meter point blank ranges and autofire, not 1dx or 2d6 melee weapons. Force becomes the end-all, be-all like 3.5's magic/Psionics are.

Not if the 2d6 melee weapons and +2 Armour are everyday civilian level weapons and the 3dX weapons just require a permit and a psychological screening to acquire.

[Kiero]

SAGA edition is a soggy biscuit at best compared to other d20 games, I constantly end up making characters that, at level 10, have 12 skills at the most and supplementing many skills with force-based talents most notably from the sense talent tree.
I also end up making him ridiculously powerful in skills, combat and force usage.
He often takes care of all the combat in a couple of rounds before other players have had a chance to properly plan their battle tactics.

I have an uncanny ability for optimization with the Saga rules and that might well have spread around by now which is exactly what I don't want, I want my players to be challenged.

I'm already rather dubious about this claim. Saga Edition's balance comes a lot through opportunity cost; pursue one course of being good and you hamper another.

A human Noble or Scout with a high intelligence could start with 10 or 11 Trained Skills before doing anything else. But unless you've got random rolled stats, that's points in Intelligence that aren't in far more important ones for a Force-user - namely Charisma and Wisdom.

You've also immediately lost a point of BAB, which may be important for your combat effectiveness. If you're not starting with either of those, then you're wasting Feats on Skill Training, which are Feats not spent on something else.

Using Skill-substitution Talents (like Force Perception and Force Pilot) are Talents not spent on things that are useful to a combat or Force-oriented build. Even if you're multiclassing for the "free" Talents (which also means losing BAB again) you couldn't have more than about seven Talents by 10th level. And you'd have few Feats besides the single multiclass ones you'd be getting, which aren't that good, and your Character Feats.

So as Mando Knight says, it sounds like you may have misconstrued the multiclassing rules.

[Darth Stabber]

Ditto the previous post, There is no compelling reason a soldier with a heavy repeating blaster can't keep up with or even outperform a jedi (especially if there is more than one target). If you waste your talents on any of the skill replacement force talents (except maybe intuition), you are seriously lax in either lightsabers, or Force powers. I would venture as far as to say that SWSE has more viable playable character builds in the main book, than D&D does in core. And if you don't like what is possibly the most elegant product ever to bear the d20system tag, then d20 Modern and the d20 Future splatbook exist, again much better because you are not trying to adapt the middle ages to space. Some one has done it for you, don't reinvent the wheel if you don't have to.

Your previous claim of being master skill monkey, weapon master and master of force powers is dubious, very dubious. honestly you either have a GM that is not paying attention, a group-wide fundamental misunderstanding of the rules, a completely incompetent play group, Free feats and talents that the GM just gives, or some combination. There is no way that you are out skill monkeying the the skill monkey classes, Stand as a peerless melee combatant and have a decent lvl of mastery over the force. I could be wrong about this, and I have to see your build to know for sure, but from your description of your Char you are doing something way wrong and i suggest a healthy dose of RTFM, and i think you will find that your opinion of SWSE is founded on misinterpretation. And you will see why every one on this thread thinks the Idea is rediculous.