4e- Readied Actions... huh?

[Asbestos]

Ok, so, not really used to using readied actions in 4e yet (normally play a Warlord, I *need* to go whenever I can) but I was playing a Wizard in the last session and something came up...

The party is currently in that annoying zone created by a Goblin Hexer but I just offed him using my Flaming Sphere. Now, there are other guys in there and I want to hit them with my Force Orb, but that cloud is giving me a -4 to hit them and I don't want to waste it. So, I spend an action point and use it to ready an action to shoot in my Force Orb the moment the cloud dissipates (since it won't do so until the Hexer's turn comes up.) However, when I'm on the player side of the DM screen I suffer from intense tracking laziness, so I forgot the initiative order. Anyway, the Hexer's turn comes before mine so when the cloud dissipates in the next round and I shoot in the Force Orb (which I rolled a flipping 1 on) but... then what?

According to the Rules I move up the initiative ladder so my turn is now before the triggering event... What happens to the full set of actions I would have in this round? Do I lose it? (Since I can't really act before I acted...) We had a minor disagreement over it, the DM saying that by RAW I didn't get any actions at first (which means I just spent an action point in order to give up an entire round of actions????) but gave in a little and let me use my minor and move actions (which is good because my Sphere would have gone away without me using a minor to keep it going) but said I had already spent my standard action (even though it was from the action point earlier).

Basically, what happens if the triggering event of the readied action doesn't happen until the next round of combat and occurs before your turn in the initiative order, when do you get to use your full set of actions for that round?

[NecroRebel]

Um. I'm not sure where you're losing actions, but the way I would rule it is this:

Your initiative is 20, the goblin's is 15. Normally, you'd take your actions on 20, then wait until 20 to act again. However, you took a full round on 20, then a standard on 15. Now, on 20, you essentially are forced to delay your turn until 15, when you take your full action load.

So, on turn X, when you readied your action, you could spend a minor, move, and standard action on your turn and one extra standard from the action point.

Then, on turn X+1, and every turn thereafter, you could spend a minor, move, and standard action on the goblin hexer's turn.

So, you've gained one extra standard action from the action point. No actions were lost at all.

Edit: Oh, I think I misread your problem. Hold on while I reread a bit.

...So the Hexer is on 20 and you're on 15, on 15 you ready, then you are then forced to delay on 15... So turn X you take full actions, but on X+1 you can't act, then on X+2 you act on 20. Huh.

On the one hand, you are spending an action point to lose a turn, but on the other you're spending an action point to move up on the initiative order. Whether or not that balances out is dependent on the characters and situations, but being able to move up on initiative with no penalty would be too good, so it has to be there. Your DM was right by my reading.

[Nonah_Me]

My reading of the situation would be that you get your full range of actions. A readied action is still technically one you've already paid for; on the table listing action types on the DM's screen, a readied action has the cost of one standard. You spent an action point so that you could pay that cost. The economy of actions is still upheld.

[Another_Poet]

This is my understanding:

(using a chart to illustrate)

OtherPC - Round 1
OtherPC - Round 1
HexGob - Round 1
Goblin2 - Round 1
Your PC - Round 1

----

OtherPC - Round 2
OtherPC - Round 2
HexGob - Round 2
Goblin2 - Round 2
Your PC No thanks I'll ready an action...

----

OtherPC - Round 3
OtherPC - Round 3
Your readied action - Round 2!
HexGob - Round 3
Goblin2 - Round 3

----

OtherPC - Round 4
OtherPC - Round 4
Your PC - Round 3!
HexGob - Round 4
Goblin2 - Round 4

In other words, I would agree with your DM that when you choose to wait to act it pushes the rest of your actions back. You don't technically "lose" any actions, but you delay them, and certainly don't get to take two turns in a row (or almost in a row).

[Edge of Dreams]

Technically, you didn't actually lose an action!

Here's two examples to show how readying might or might not cause you to "lose" actions.

Ex. 1

Round 1
Bob's first turn, he readies the action "hit the dragon when it attacks me"
Dragon's first turn, attacks bob, bob takes his readied action and is placed before the dragon in initiative

Round 2
Bob's second turn
Dragon's second turn

Bob didn't lose any actions.

Ex 2

Round 1
Dragon's first turn.
Bob's first turn, he readies the action "hit the dragon when it attacks me"

Round 2
Dragon's second turn, attacks bob, triggering the readied action. Bob's initiative count changes to before the dragon

Round 3
Bob's second turn
Dragon's third turn

Bob has lost a turn.... or has he?

Actually, if you think about the turn order not in rounds but as a cycle, you see this in Ex. 2

(start of round 1) Dragon -> Bob (rnd. 2) -> Dragon (rnd 3.) -> Bob -> Dragon (rnd 4) -> Bob -> Dragon.

Notice how the Dragon never actually gets 2 turns in a row? The "round" structure is deceiving.

Now, if you ready or delay multiple times in one combat, such that your initiative count goes all the way around the cycle, yes, you can end up losing actions. But most of the time, readying an action once will only alter the order of turns among you, your allies, and your enemies, without a net loss of actions

Example with 3 participants, Alice and Bob, who are allies, and a Dragon

Alice -> Dragon -> Bob (readies for when dragon attacks) -> Alice -> Dragon (triggers readied action) -> Alice -> Bob -> Dragon -> Alice -> Bob -> Dragon -> Alice -> Bob -> Dragon -> etc.

Alice acts once *before* each turn of the Dragon. Bob acts once *after* each turn of the Dragon. At one point, Bob and Alice switch positions, but it is still true that Alice acts exactly once before each turn of the dragon and Bob acts exactly once after each turn of the dragon.

Before the readied action and trigger, Bob takes his Xth action after Alice and the Dragon each take their Xth action. After the readied action and trigger, Bob is taking his Xth action after the Dragon's Xth action and after Alice's X+1th action. So he's lost a third of a round, if you care to think of it that way, or you can think of it as Alice having gained a third of a round. Weird, huh?

Also, in regards to your flaming sphere: sustaining it keeps it going until the end of your next turn. You sustained it, then readied an action. A few people's turns later you took your readied action. Since your "next turn" has not happened yet, the sphere keeps going. A few more turns later, your "next turn" starts, so your sphere can be sustained at that point. Your sphere has actually gained half a round of duration, which is very strange indeed.

[Artanis]

It's important to note that readying an action does not use up your entire turn, just a standard action. So on your turn you can do all your normal stuff, minus that standard action.

Then, the cloud dissipates, and you use the readied action to use Force Orb, and what Another_Poet describes is what happens:

Original init order:

You
PC 1
Goblin


Turn 1:

You: *normal turn minus the standard action you ready*
PC 1: *does stuff*
Cloud dissipates
You: *use readied action*
Goblin: *does stuff*

Turn 2 onward:

PC 1: *does stuff*
You: *does stuff*
Goblin: *does stuff*


Also: "Tracking laziness" is no excuse. Find a scrap of paper and write down the init order if you have trouble keeping track.

[Asbestos]

Chart is almost correct, let me clean it up a little.

This is my understanding:

(using a chart to illustrate)

OtherPC - Round 1
OtherPC - Round 1
HexGob - Round 1
Goblin2 - Round 1
Your PC - Round 1

----

OtherPC - Round 2
OtherPC - Round 2
HexGob - Round 2
Goblin2 - Round 2
Your PC-Round 2 Action Point!- Ready an action

----

OtherPC - Round 3
OtherPC - Round 3
Your readied action - Round 2(2.5? Since its the action point from 2?)
HexGob - Round 3
Goblin2 - Round 3

----

OtherPC - Round 4
OtherPC - Round 4
Your PC - Round 3!
HexGob - Round 4
Goblin2 - Round 4

In other words, I would agree with your DM that when you choose to wait to act it pushes the rest of your actions back. You don't technically "lose" any actions, but you delay them, and certainly don't get to take two turns in a row (or almost in a row).

But, I do effectively lose actions then. I basically spent an action point to move up the initiative and then only make a standard action in that round. Is moving up the initiative really so unbalancing that it requires a sacrifice of a whole set of actions? (remember, that standard was paid for the round previously)

@Artanis: Yes, 'tracking laziness' is a lame excuse, as this little incident has taught me.

[Izmir Stinger]

When you ready an action, you only waste the action if the trigger does not occur (or you choose to ignore it) before the end of the round. If the round ends before the triggering event occurs, you loose the action. If you want to perform and action that you think will be triggered next round before your initiative, the proper tactic is to delay your initiative until the next round, then take a turn and ready an action.

Defining a trigger for your action that isn't guaranteed to occur is a risk. If this happens, you can always ready the same action again, and take the same risk again. You can only ever loose that one standard action, though. Yous guys misunderstanding of the rules screwed you out of a whole turn. That isn't how it is supposed to work.

You can prevent loosing the standard action with logical qualifiers in your trigger, depending on what you are trying to do. By RAW, you define the trigger. It gives simple examples, but there is nothing specifically prohibiting stuff like this:

Desired Result: Get combat advantage against monster M, but I am the first one to get to him. I want to attack before monster M's turn, and Jimmy is the last ally that comes before him in the initiative order.
Action: Use power X on monster M
Trigger: An ally moves into a position flanking monster M with me OR the end of Jimmy's turn, whichever comes first.

Desired Result: Help Jimmy the rogue hit this monster with one of his awesome daily powers, but something might change between now and then forcing him to take a different action. In that case help Frankie hit him, cause he is already here
Action: Aid Another
Trigger: Jimmy becomes adjacent to this enemy OR the end of Jimmy's turn, whichever comes first.

Desired Result: Get the Hell out of Dodge safely. I can do so in this direction, but it is difficult terrain due to a zone that might or might not dissipate before my next turn. It is not as optimal, but I can go that way if my allies manage to kill or disable that monster. Either way, I need to move before Monster Y's turn because he is going to chase me and I only have 3 hit points
Action: Run
Trigger: The zone causing difficult terrain dissipates OR someone causes monster M to become incapable of making attacks of opportunity OR the beginning of monster Y's turn, whichever comes first.

[Yakk]

1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 1 is the initiative order.

#5 can ready his action. Suppose #5 waits on #1 doing something...

1 2 3 4 5 1 * 2 3 4 1 5 2 3 4 1

5 moved his standard action from where it was to the * location. He then lost 2 units of initiative, and he gave up a single move and minor action, in exchange for moving his standard action to the time he wanted it.

Alternatively, he gives up a standard, move and minor action in exchange for a boost of 3 slots to his initiative.

Remember -- someone that goes first in a round has basically an entire round's extra actions over someone who goes last.

As the delay goes up, things get worse:

1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 * 4 1 2 3 5 4 1 2 3 5 4 1
Here 5 gave up 3 units of initiative, or gained 2, depending on how you look at it.

But yes, you get to do your action at just the right time, in exchange for losing in the action budget.

[Edge of Dreams]

Is moving up the initiative really so unbalancing that it requires a sacrifice of a whole set of actions?

Changing the initiative order is not what makes readied actions powerful or even useful. The power of readied actions is in interrupting your opponents actions and plans.

For example, "I ready an action to shift back 1 square the next time an opponent moves adjacent to me" can cause an opponent to waste a turn by moving up to you and then not being within melee range to hit you.

Or how about "I ready an action to shoot the creature the next time it becomes visible" to deal with a creature that keeps popping behind cover or switches back and forth between invisible and visible.

Of course, readied actions were even more useful back in 3.5 when you could use them to interrupt spellcasting and things like that.

[Artanis]

he gave up a single move and minor action

Are you sure about this? The text sounds to me like readying is a standard action, but that they still have their move and minor left that they can use on that turn. They still lose out on actions overall due to the init being messed with, but they don't lose that entire turn. As an illustration:

Normal turn: "I move ten feet to the left and shoot him."
Turn with readying an action: "I move ten feet to my left and get ready to shoot him."