[3.5] How Difficult is this Save DC?

[Myou]

In an upcoming campaign my character (a custom class that blends rogue and assassin) is going to have a slightly modified death attack. My DM is fine with the new DC but I'm slightly concerned that it might be a little tough (so that it would never fail, making the save mostly irrelevant). Ideally if my character successfully hits an enemy of CR apropriate to his level with a death attack it should rarely fail (maybe ~20% of the time) but higher level foes should have a good chance to survive.

The current DC is; 15 + Assassin level + Int mod.

Is this too high for the lethality we're going for? It's a solo campaign, so being overpowered isn't a problem, but I'd rather my combat didn't hinge entirely on getting guaranteed one-hit kills.

I thought about posting in the homebrew section, but we're playing a RAW campaign in other regards so here seemed most appropriate.

[Llama231]

It seems pretty good to me, but a little overpowered at levels under 10, and weak above it.

[Kroy]

Looks fine, seeing as how assassins DA is underpowered. It's only an additional +5 anyway.

[Myou]

It seems pretty good to me, but a little overpowered at levels under 10, and weak above it.

I'm glad you think so. :3

The study time is the inverse of level/2. Which is meant to counter that efect, so at level one it takes 10 rounds of study to make a death attack, at 20, just 1.

Looks fine, seeing as how assassins DA is underpowered. It's only an additional +5 anyway.

Yeah, we looked at the assassin DC and just said 'no', we're hoping this DC makes it genuinely lethal. (But not totally broken.)

[Fax Celestis]

Class features are usually 10 + 1/2 level + Ability modifier, so 10 + level + modifier is kinda high.

[Myou]

Class features are usually 10 + 1/2 level + Ability modifier, so 10 + level + modifier is kinda high.

Even the normal assassin gets their full level (and is thought underpowered), 1/2 level is hideously weak for a death attack.

[Fax Celestis]

Even the normal assassin gets their full level (and is thought underpowered), 1/2 level is hideously weak for a death attack.

The normal assassin also only has ten levels. At 20th level, a DC of 15 + 20 + Int (say, +8) for a DC 43 is obscene. If you instead use 10 +10 + 8 for 28, it's more reasonable.

EDIT: on example, a DC 43 means that a 20th level fighter (or other class that has Fortitude as a strong save) gets a +12, and has likely another +8 from Con, for a +20 mod. Even a natural 20 can't beat a 43. Toss on a cloak of resistance +5, sure, and you're getting a result between 26 and 45: that's a successful save on a 18, 19, or 20.

Characters with a weak save have pretty much no chance at all.

[TempusCCK]

In a solo campaign though, CR gets all funky, I don't mess with it unless I absolutely have to.

But if you look at a Balor's +22 fort save, at level 20, he needs to roll a 16 to hit the DC 38 Fax is talking about. Pretty dang high. But that's assuming you jack up the INT, which, if you're going to be death attacking alot, you will. and this is against a monster that you should, by all accounts, be taking on with three friends by your side.

But even say, a Formian Queen(linky: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/formian.htm#queen) is CR 17, and a little closer to what you are supposed to be facing single handedly, only has a +19 Fort save, meaning she has to roll a 19 to make your save.

If you fight a Fighter of equal level, and he has, say, an equal mod in Con that you do in INT, so making his fort mod +20, he still has to roll an 18 to not be killed by you.

There are other examples that might not be so good, but two randomly chosen of various CR's and a character class with a good save make it seem like it's a bit overpowered. However, this doesn't exactly equate to sure fire victory against these foes, it does show that your DC is a bit tough IF you jack up INT.

Take it for what you will, there's only one of you, so I say keep it as is, it will help level the playing field quite a bit. It's about having the fun anyway.

Ninja'd by Fax's Edit, and I had the wrong numbers...

[Myou]

The normal assassin also only has ten levels. At 20th level, a DC of 15 + 20 + Int (say, +8) for a DC 43 is obscene. If you instead use 10 +10 + 8 for 28, it's more reasonable.

EDIT: on example, a DC 43 means that a 20th level fighter (or other class that has Fortitude as a strong save) gets a +12, and has likely another +8 from Con, for a +20 mod. Even a natural 20 can't beat a 43. Toss on a cloak of resistance +5, sure, and you're getting a result between 26 and 45: that's a successful save on a 18, 19, or 20.

Characters with a weak save have pretty much no chance at all.

Hmmm, you're right, we didn't take the level progression into account.

If the DC were just 10 + level + Int that probably would be better, you're right.

Then foes with good saves would need about an average of 15 on their roll, yes?


Looking at the Tarrasque base saves shortly before we worked on the class probably wasn't a good idea. xD

[ericgrau]

CR avg. fort save	DC
1	3.00		-
2	4.35		-
3	4.58		-
4	6.45		-
5	7.47		-
6	8.08		16 + Int
7	8.67		17 + Int
8	9.19		18 + Int
9	12.13		19 + Int
10	11.63		20 + Int
11	13.75		21 + Int
12	15.42		22 + Int
13	14.17		23 + Int
14	15.92		24 + Int
15	15.75		25 + Int
16	17.09		-
17	19.57		-
18	19.50		-
19	22.10		-
20	24.22		-

A CR appropriate challenge is lower than his level. CR equal to his level in a solo campaign would count as "overwhelming". So if he has an int of 16 and the monsters are 4 CR below his level, the death attack has a 70% chance of succeeding, whereas normally it'd be 45%. Subtract 5% per additional CR. So an "overwhelming" foe would have a 50:50 survival rate, vs. 25% using the standard death attack. However these are based on average fortitude saves.

I didn't include the max fort saves, but they vary between 3 and 7 higher than the average, i.e. 15-35% lower chance of death attack success. It may be up to the DM to simply make sure he uses high fort save foes for his major baddies if he wants to avoid easy kills.

EDIT: And if your int is higher than the 16 (+3) I used in the example, chances of success increase of course. A 20 int (+5) would give the 80% success rate you want against normal foes, but even higher against really weak foes and against strong foes you'll still be at 60%+ success. And if you face multiple foes they'll be weaker individually for nigh-auto-success but you'll still have to fight the rest.

[Myou]

In a solo campaign though, CR gets all funky, I don't mess with it unless I absolutely have to.

But if you look at a Balor's +22 fort save, at level 20, he needs to roll a 16 to hit the DC 38 Fax is talking about. Pretty dang high. But that's assuming you jack up the INT, which, if you're going to be death attacking alot, you will. and this is against a monster that you should, by all accounts, be taking on with three friends by your side.

But even say, a Formian Queen(linky: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/formian.htm#queen) is CR 17, and a little closer to what you are supposed to be facing single handedly, only has a +19 Fort save, meaning she has to roll a 19 to make your save.

If you fight a Fighter of equal level, and he has, say, an equal mod in Con that you do in INT, so making his fort mod +20, he still has to roll an 18 to not be killed by you.

There are other examples that might not be so good, but two randomly chosen of various CR's and a character class with a good save make it seem like it's a bit overpowered. However, this doesn't exactly equate to sure fire victory against these foes, it does show that your DC is a bit tough IF you jack up INT.

Take it for what you will, there's only one of you, so I say keep it as is, it will help level the playing field quite a bit. It's about having the fun anyway.

Ninja'd by Fax's Edit, and I had the wrong numbers...

Well now I don't know what to think! xD

I certainly won't be pumping my Int exclusively as my character has to do everything, so he suffers from MAD, so a bonus of +5 there is probably more likely than +8.

You've reminded me of a few points of reasoning that my DM and I went over, and the requirement for studying the foe means that it's not as if it's a guaranteed kill anyway.

I think I'll wait and see what others say for now. But we'd rather it be a litlle high than too low.

[Myou]

CR avg. fort save	DC
1	3.00		-
2	4.35		-
3	4.58		-
4	6.45		-
5	7.47		-
6	8.08		16 + Int
7	8.67		17 + Int
8	9.19		18 + Int
9	12.13		19 + Int
10	11.63		20 + Int
11	13.75		21 + Int
12	15.42		22 + Int
13	14.17		23 + Int
14	15.92		24 + Int
15	15.75		25 + Int
16	17.09		-
17	19.57		-
18	19.50		-
19	22.10		-
20	24.22		-

Note that a CR appropriate challenge is lower than his level. CR equal to his level in a solo campaign would count as "overwhelming". So if he has an int of 16 and the monsters are 4 CR below his level, the death attack has a 70% chance of succeeding, whereas normally it'd be 45%. Subtract 5% per additional CR. So an "overwhelming" foe would have a 50:50 survival rate, vs. 25% using the standard death attack. However these are based on average fortitude saves.

I didn't include the max fort saves, but they vary between 3 and 7 higher than the average, i.e. 15-35% lower chance of death attack success. It may be up to the DM to simply make sure he uses high fort save foes for his major baddies if he wants to avoid easy kills.

EDIT: And if your int is higher than the 16 I used in the example, chances of success increase of course. A 20 int would give the 80% success rate you want against normal foes, but even higher against really weak foes and against strong foes you'll still be at 60%+ success. And if you face multiple foes they'll be weaker individually for nigh-auto-success but you'll still have to fight the rest.

He indeed will makes major foes have high saves and he'll also be putting me against encounters with a CR appropriate for a party my level (and some higher than that), not a single character my level.

Just to clarify, I'm playing a custom base class that gets a death attack from level 1, so with a 15 base DC the total DC at level 6 would be 19 21 + Int. At 20 it would be 35 + Int.

[monty]

He indeed will makes major foes have high saves and he'll also be putting me against encounters with a CR appropriate for a party my level (and some higher than that), not a single character my level.

Just to clarify, I'm playing a custom base class that gets a death attack from level 1, so with a 15 base DC the total DC at level 6 would be 19 + Int. At 20 it would be 35 + Int.

15+6=21, not 19. Unless you're using some funky non-linear progression, of course.

[Myou]

15+6=21, not 19. Unless you're using some funky non-linear progression, of course.

That's what I get for deciding to ask the forum at 2am. xD
Yes, 21, not 19, thank you. (Where did I get 19?!)

[monty]

That's what I get for deciding to ask the forum at 2am. xD
Yes, 21, not 19, thank you. (Where did I get 19?!)

Aw, I was hoping it was going to be the funky non-linear option

[Myou]

Aw, I was hoping it was going to be the funky non-linear option

Hey, it's still funky! Just wait 'til you see his afro!

[ericgrau]

He indeed will makes major foes have high saves and he'll also be putting me against encounters with a CR appropriate for a party my level (and some higher than that), not a single character my level.

Just to clarify, I'm playing a custom base class that gets a death attack from level 1, so with a 15 base DC the total DC at level 6 would be 19 21 + Int. At 20 it would be 35 + Int.

Oh in that case you're right at the 80% mark for normal fights. 55% for overwhelming (BBEG?) fights. Both are give or take 15-35%, and I suspect the DM would want to tailor major foes to have a high fort save not the average fort save.

[angus cotton]

Just to clarify, I'm playing a custom base class that gets a death attack from level 1, so with a 15 base DC the total DC at level 6 would be 19 21 + Int. At 20 it would be 35 + Int.

Good googly moogly!

Assuming a +12 int mod at level 20, that is a DC of 47 at level 20. Why even play?

[Myou]

Oh in that case you're right at the 80% mark for normal fights. 55% for overwhelming (BBEG?) fights. Both are give or take 15-35%, and I suspect the DM would want to tailor major foes to have a high fort save not the average fort save.

Good googly moogly!

Assuming a +12 int mod at level 20, that is a DC of 47 at level 20. Why even play?

I seem to be getting some very conflicting advice here. o.o
If Ericgrau is right then it's perfect, if angus is then it's certainly not.

Although I'm not likely to get a +12 int mod, I'm not sure how I'd get my int that high.

The googly mooglying made me giggle though. :3

[Flickerdart]

It all depends on what INT you have. Keep it around 20 (+5) and you'll be fine. If you use 5 Wishes and a +5 Tome as well as a +5 item to raise that INT, you'd be dishing out some serious hurt.

In other words, if you optimize it, it'll be overpowered. If you don't, it won't.

[Myou]

It all depends on what INT you have. Keep it around 20 (+5) and you'll be fine. If you use 5 Wishes and a +5 Tome as well as a +5 item to raise that INT, you'd be dishing out some serious hurt.

In other words, if you optimize it, it'll be overpowered. If you don't, it won't.

I'm probably not going to get five wishes of the tome in a solo campaign though. My DM won't just pass those out.

(And the wishes and tome don't stack. )

[Flickerdart]

I'm probably not going to get five wishes of the tome in a solo campaign though. My DM won't just pass those out.

(And the wishes and tome don't stack. )

You can buy all that stuff since it's priced in the DMG. Also, huh, they're both Inherent bonuses, so they wouldn't stack, right. So just +5 item and +5 tome. Still +10, plus you can probably glean some unnamed bonuses from somewhere.

[Myou]

You can buy all that stuff since it's priced in the DMG. Also, huh, they're both Inherent bonuses, so they wouldn't stack, right. So just +5 item and +5 tome. Still +10, plus you can probably glean some unnamed bonuses from somewhere.

Actually, by RAW I'm pretty sure you can't pay to have Wishes cast, because I think it says somewhere that spells costing more than 3,000gp to have cast for you are not normally available.

And I know it says that nowhere can you spend more than 100,000 gp in one go. So nowhere in the world can sell you a +5 Tome.

Still, treasure might give me a tome if I'm lucky, but I won't hold my breath.

[monty]

Also, items never give odd enhancement bonuses. You want a +6 item, not +5.

[ericgrau]

I seem to be getting some very conflicting advice here. o.o
If Ericgrau is right then it's perfect, if angus is then it's certainly not.

Although I'm not likely to get a +12 int mod, I'm not sure how I'd get my int that high.

The googly mooglying made me giggle though. :3

I assumed the 20 int you specified. Now the question is what will your int really be?

EDIT: Assuming a base of 16 and a +6 item, that's a 22 int by mid levels: at least level 9 and probably 13-14ish. A +5 tome is very expensive and won't come into play until at least level 14 and probably 17-18ish. That bumps it to 27 int. An assassin's dagger adds another +1 to the save DC for a relatively cheap 18,000gp. I'm assuming standard wealth by level for everything, by the way, which might not be true in your seemingly high powered campaign. From there it's a matter of whether or not int will be your primary stat or if dex will be. Ya, your death attack helps a lot, but you gotta be able to fight well without it, especially against groups. If int is your primary stat you would pump it every 4 levels to get even more.

So if we assume a 24 int is reasonable (base 16, +6 item, +2 tome) and you wield an assassin's dagger (+1 save DC), then your DC's are 3 points too high. i.e. 95% success instead of 80%. But they're as much as 2 points too low at low levels. Maybe you could talk with your DM about it; he should have a better idea about what kind of treasure you'll be getting.

To get a +12 int mod in core I think you'd need an 18 base int, +5 levels, +5 tome, +6 item = 34. If you really wanted to push the limit you could be a venerable grey elf for 39, but that comes with a -8 penalty to con.

[Eldariel]

Don't forget Ability Focus effectively adding two to that, so Int 10 will be sufficient.

[Myou]

Also, items never give odd enhancement bonuses. You want a +6 item, not +5.

Very good point, I've certainly never seen a +5 headband.

I assumed the 20 int you specified. Now the question is what will your int really be?

EDIT: Assuming a base of 16 and a +6 item, that's a 22 int by mid levels: at least level 9 and probably 13-14ish. A +5 tome is very expensive and won't come into play until at least level 14 and probably 17-18ish. That bumps it to 27 int. An assassin's dagger adds another +1 to the save DC for a relatively cheap 18,000gp. I'm assuming standard wealth by level for everything, by the way, which might not be true in your seemingly high powered campaign. From there it's a matter of whether or not int will be your primary stat or if dex will be. Ya, your death attack helps a lot, but you gotta be able to fight well without it, especially against groups. If int is your primary stat you would pump it every 4 levels to get even more.

So if we assume a 24 int is reasonable (base 16, +6 item, +2 tome) and you wield an assassin's dagger (+1 save DC), then your DC's are 3 points too high. i.e. 95% success instead of 80%. But they're as much as 2 points too low at low levels. Maybe you could talk with your DM about it; he should have a better idea about what kind of treasure you'll be getting.

To get a +12 int mod in core I think you'd need an 18 base int, +5 levels, +5 tome, +6 item = 34. If you really wanted to push the limit you could be a venerable grey elf for 39, but that comes with a -8 penalty to con.

Well, my starting Int will be 18, so that makes it abut right at lower levels, but too difficult at higher levels. Perhaps if my DM withholds Int-boosting items?

I'll be putting my points into Dex mainly.

Don't forget Ability Focus effectively adding two to that, so Int 10 will be sufficient.

I wasn't plannning no taking that, but I guess I could do, yeah.


Perhaps the best strategy at higher levels would be for my DM to start giving BBEG creatures a bonus to their saves from an item or something like that?

[Fax Celestis]

*jacks ericgrau's table*

For calculating DCs, I'm going to assume Int 18, every stat boost goes into Int, and a circlet of intellect +2/+4/+6 at 6th, 12, 18th. I'll put these numbers in parentheses.

{table=head]CR | avg. fort save | 15 + level + Int | Chance of Passing | 10 + 1/2 level + Int | Chance of Passing
1 | 3.00 | 16 (20) | 35% (15%) | 10 (14) | 65% (45%)
2 | 4.35 | 17 (21) | 35% (15%) | 11 (15) | 65% (45%)
3 | 4.58 | 18 (22) | 30% (10%) | 11 (15) | 65% (45%)
4 | 6.45 | 19 (23) | 35% (15%) | 12 (16) | 70% (50%)
5 | 7.47 | 20 (24) | 35% (15%) | 12 (16) | 75% (55%)
6 | 8.08 | 21 (26) | 35% (15%) | 13 (18) | 75% (50%)
7 | 8.67 | 22 (27) | 30% (10%) | 13 (18) | 75% (50%)
8 | 9.19 | 23 (29) | 30% (5%) | 14 (20) | 75% (55%)
9 | 12.13 | 24 (30) | 25% (10%) | 14 (20) | 90% (60%)
10 | 11.63 | 25 (31) | 35% (5%) | 15 (21) | 80% (50%)
11 | 13.75 | 26 (32) | 35% (10%) | 15 (21) | 90% (60%)
12 | 15.42 | 27 (34) | 40% (10%) | 16 (23) | 95% (40%)
13 | 14.17 | 28 (35) | 30% (0%) | 16 (23) | 90% (45%)
14 | 15.92 | 29 (36) | 30% (0%) | 17 (24) | 90% (45%)
15 | 15.75 | 30 (37) | 25% (0%) | 17 (24) | 90% (45%)
16 | 17.09 | 31 (39) | 35% (0%) | 18 (26) | 95% (45%)
17 | 19.57 | 32 (40) | 40% (0%) | 18 (26) | 100% (35%)
18 | 19.50 | 33 (42) | 35% (0%) | 19 (28) | 100% (45%)
19 | 22.10 | 34 (43) | 40% (0%) | 19 (28) | 100% (30%)
20 | 24.22 | 35 (44) | 45% (0%) | 20 (29) | 100% (25%)
[/table]

From this, you can see at the later levels that your foes have very little chance of success...and even from the start, they need an 18 or better to make it. Also, remember that taking Ability Focus will reduce these scores by 10%, meaning that essentially from 7th level on, your death attack will never fail with a 15 + level + Int save.

However, using just 15 + Level gives an average 35% chance of failure, which isn't too powerful.

[Myou]

*jacks ericgrau's table*

For calculating DCs, I'm going to assume Int 18, every stat boost goes into Int, and a circlet of intellect +2/+4/+6 at 6th, 12, 18th. I'll put these numbers in parentheses.

{table=head]CR | avg. fort save | 15 + level + Int | Chance of Passing | 10 + 1/2 level + Int | Chance of Passing
1 | 3.00 | 16 (20) | 35% (15%) | 10 (14) | 65% (45%)
2 | 4.35 | 17 (21) | 35% (15%) | 11 (15) | 65% (45%)
3 | 4.58 | 18 (22) | 30% (10%) | 11 (15) | 65% (45%)
4 | 6.45 | 19 (23) | 35% (15%) | 12 (16) | 70% (50%)
5 | 7.47 | 20 (24) | 35% (15%) | 12 (16) | 75% (55%)
6 | 8.08 | 21 (26) | 35% (15%) | 13 (18) | 75% (50%)
7 | 8.67 | 22 (27) | 30% (10%) | 13 (18) | 75% (50%)
8 | 9.19 | 23 (29) | 30% (5%) | 14 (20) | 75% (55%)
9 | 12.13 | 24 (30) | 25% (10%) | 14 (20) | 90% (60%)
10 | 11.63 | 25 (31) | 35% (5%) | 15 (21) | 80% (50%)
11 | 13.75 | 26 (32) | 35% (10%) | 15 (21) | 90% (60%)
12 | 15.42 | 27 (34) | 40% (10%) | 16 (23) | 95% (40%)
13 | 14.17 | 28 (35) | 30% (0%) | 16 (23) | 90% (45%)
14 | 15.92 | 29 (36) | 30% (0%) | 17 (24) | 90% (45%)
15 | 15.75 | 30 (37) | 25% (0%) | 17 (24) | 90% (45%)
16 | 17.09 | 31 (39) | 35% (0%) | 18 (26) | 95% (45%)
17 | 19.57 | 32 (40) | 40% (0%) | 18 (26) | 100% (35%)
18 | 19.50 | 33 (42) | 35% (0%) | 19 (28) | 100% (45%)
19 | 22.10 | 34 (43) | 40% (0%) | 19 (28) | 100% (30%)
20 | 24.22 | 35 (44) | 45% (0%) | 20 (29) | 100% (25%)
[/table]

From this, you can see at the later levels that your foes have very little chance of success...and even from the start, they need an 18 or better to make it. Also, remember that taking Ability Focus will reduce these scores by 10%, meaning that essentially from 7th level on, your death attack will never fail with a 15 + level + Int save.

However, using just 15 + Level gives an average 35% chance of failure, which isn't too powerful.

Wow, thank you very much for such an excellent breakdown of the statistics, that's really helpful! =O

Looking at the table it seems to me that 15 + level + Int is slightly weaker than we wanted. I can't really afford to put all my stat increases into intelligence, so really I'd need Ability Focus to maintain that DC too.

Perharps adding half of my Int modifier and reducing the base DC by 1 would work?

*Steals your stolen table!* >:D

{table=head]CR | avg. fort save | 14 + level + 1/2 Int (round down) | Chance of Passing
1 | 3.00 | 15 (17) | 35% (30%)
2 | 4.35 | 16 (18) | 35% (30%)
3 | 4.58 | 17 (19) | 30% (25%)
4 | 6.45 | 18 (20) | 35% (30%)
5 | 7.47 | 19 (21) | 35% (30%)
6 | 8.08 | 20 (22) | 35% (30%)
7 | 8.67 | 21 (23) | 30% (25%)
8 | 9.19 | 22 (25) | 30% (20%)
9 | 12.13 | 23 (26) | 25% (30%)
10 | 11.63 | 24 (27) | 35% (20%)
11 | 13.75 | 25 (28) | 35% (25%)
12 | 15.42 | 26 (29) | 40% (30%)
13 | 14.17 | 27 (30) | 30% (20%)
14 | 15.92 | 28 (31) | 30% (20%)
15 | 15.75 | 29 (32) | 25% (15%)
16 | 17.09 | 30 (34) | 35% (15%)
17 | 19.57 | 31 (35) | 40% (20%)
18 | 19.50 | 32 (36) | 35% (15%)
19 | 22.10 | 33 (37) | 40% (25%)
20 | 24.22 | 34 (38) | 45% (30%)
[/table]

By the look of it, that results in a DC that's quite appropriate up to about level 15, a little high for a few levels, but then appropriate again at levels 19 & 20.

If the DM gave monsters Great Fortitude if their chances would be a bit too low then that would even it out nicely for monsters with lower saves or plot-relevance I think.

Ability Focus would throw it off a little, but at the cost of a feat it wouldn't be too bad and would allow me to keep the DC that high while putting a few points into Dex.

What do others think?

[Talic]

If you want to make it more powerful, without going too much into advanced statistics, you can do one of two things.

1) Change it to a reflex save (the assassin's aim is always true, but the exceptionally swift may roll just enough out of the way to thwart the killing strike).

Pro: Reflex doesn't go up as severely as Fort as CR's increase.
Con: High Reflex creatures, rogues, and others will be resistant to the strike.
Interesting: It would be pretty much the only Reflex save-or-die effect out there.

2) Change it to a Will save (the assassin's strike borders on the mystic, and directly assaults the energies powering the target's life).

Pro: Will saves REALLY increase slowly as CR's increase.
Con: Almost too slowly. This makes many incredibly tough creatures child's play.