Possible to build a really good melee build using small race?

[MustacheFart]

Hey all.

I've been searching google and various sites for a while but I haven't found anything really in the way of melee builds dedicated to utilizing a small character. All the good builds I've found COULD be played with a small race but are recommended with either a human or something larger.

I know by being a small race you do less weapon damage (smaller melee weapons, ranged weapons, and fists). I also know that some small races even have a racial penalty to str (melee bread and butter I guess) but despite all that, I still don't see what they can't be just as effective.

I really like the idea of a small underestimated quirky guy being able run up and physically destroy those bigger than him especially those way way bigger than him. To me the concept just seems both funny and like it would be very enjoyable to play.


So, is it possible to build a melee power house packed inside a tiny dude? So far the only way I know that a small race can be decent in melee is going the rogue sneak attack route. However, that obviously does not fit the concept of charging in and destroying.

I recently had an idea of making a small guy who runs in, uses pounce to get a full attack, and then using the various tactical feats geared toward small characters, jumps underneath the monster - hiding* out while sticking the guy each round until the big guy goes down. Seemed like a very fun idea but here are the problems I am running into:

1) the monsters gotta be at least 2 size categories bigger than you in all cases I've found. That right there excludes all the medium creatures/npcs out there but I guess you could make yourself tiny so it'd work on them too.

2) Seems very situational, where if it doesn't go just right, I'll get squashed like a bug rather easily.


Any possibly ideas or even better yet, builds... would be very appreciated.

[The Glyphstone]

There's the Shrinking Killer Gnome build, Rogue baseline that uses a bunch of feats like Confound the Big Folk combined with Reduce Person/Compression to basically get full SA and tons of random bonuses against any opponent of Medium or larger (which is to say 90+% of them).

[Draz74]

Presenting: The Other Killer Gnome

It's somewhere on these boards, too, but I linked this one because it won't be getting purged in the very near future.

[Zergrusheddie]

Well, on your idea to get a smaller character; Reduce Person could easily work. Have the Wizard cast it on you at the start of the fight and have it made Permanent at higher level.

Now, about making a small character:
Rogue would work damn fine, as 90% of the damage done is not weapon damage. A Barbarian Halfling/Gnome would also be interesting; basic Charger build but use a Longsword 2 handed. You lose some weapon damage, but the brunt of the Charger's damage is from getting a high ratio through Leap Attack and such. Also, Longswords are the most popular weapon in the game so finding +1's or +2's won't be hard.
Bardblade would also work, as would anything that uses TWF and has some extra damage bonus.

Best of luck
-Eddie

[Arcane_Snowman]

The Psychic Warrior specializing in killing his opponent using Strength of My Enemy might possibly be the most viable method.

The "easiest" way is to accomplish that would possibly be building it around the Lightning Mace feat from Complete Warrior, which allows you to get an additional attack on a critical strike, provided you have a mace in each hand, get Improved Critical, Linked Power (for two times Strength of My Enemy) Psychic Weapon Master and wield two crystal maces. You'll be critting on 17-20 (hopefully something will be able to increase this somehow) and getting additional attacks, all of which will be able to drain your opponents strength, until they drop.

[Dogmantra]

Well, it's not really a tank or anything, but you could (shock horror!) be okay with a monk. Yes, I said it: monk. Advantages are that you get extra AC, and that Strength is okay being low-ish, because you would be loosing stunning fists all over the place, rather than trying to beat him down. I'm sure there's also a feat that gives wisdom to hit (and/or damage) in lieu of Strength. It could be fun!

[MustacheFart]

The Psychic Warrior specializing in killing his opponent using Strength of My Enemy might possibly be the most viable method.

The "easiest" way is to accomplish that would possibly be building it around the Lightning Mace feat from Complete Warrior, which allows you to get an additional attack on a critical strike, provided you have a mace in each hand, get Improved Critical, Linked Power (for two times Strength of My Enemy) Psychic Weapon Master and wield two crystal maces. You'll be critting on 17-20 (hopefully something will be able to increase this somehow) and getting additional attacks, all of which will be able to drain your opponents strength, until they drop.

Also if I remember correctly, to get an extra attack from lightning maces you just need to roll a threat! You don't have to actually confirm it! If you read the feat it says something like, "each time you threaten on an attack roll or something..." I'll look it up later.

Also couldn't you put wounding on your two crystal maces to drain their con at the same time? Or is wounding only slashing? I can't remember.

-----------

Is there a way to do such a build with unarmed strikes? I kinda envisioned a rabid freak-out tiny tot who just opens up a whirlwind of punches (claws would be even better), kicks, and what have you.

Is there a way to get unarmed damage to count as 1 size bigger (medium in this case) other than the mighty arms graft + battlefists? That totally is out of the character concept for me and too cheesey.

[Arcane_Snowman]

Also if I remember correctly, to get an extra attack from lightning maces you just need to roll a threat! You don't have to actually confirm it! If you read the feat it says something like, "each time you threaten on an attack roll or something..." I'll look it up later.

You are completely correct

Is there a way to do such a build with unarmed strikes? I kinda envisioned a rabid freak-out tiny tot who just opens up a whirlwind of punches (claws would be even better), kicks, and what have you.

Is there a way to get unarmed damage to count as 1 size bigger (medium in this case) other than the mighty arms graft + battlefists? That totally is out of the character concept for me and too cheesey.

Greater Mighty Wallop from Races of the Dragon makes a Bludgeoning weapon (unarmed strike?) count as being 1 size category larger/3 caster levels, with Monks unarmed strike progression this equates to a LOT of damage, with the Unarmed Swordsage Variant you'll get quite a lot of good stuff.

Edit: as a different alternative, you could try a Totemist (will definetly get you claws)/ Totem Rager build: Totemist3/Barbarian 3/Totem Rager 8/Frenzied Berserker 5/Horizon Walker 1
-2 strength will have some consequence on your damage/hit potential at first, but later it won't be that big of a problem, you'll still mash face quite adequately.

[Frosty]

if you'resmall, you should focus on damage that is not reliant on size. I'd suggest a Bardblade or Bardsader. Be a kobold, pump up your Dragonfire Inspiration to dizzying heights, and then scare people with your TWF that does +4d6 <energy> damage with each attack at like level 5. And best of all,allof your allies get to do that bonus damage with each attack!

[Atamasama]

Here's something you can do in a 3.5 campaign.

Make a fighter-rogue and pump up strength, constitution, and charisma. Try to get the charisma fairly high. Specialize in the most damaging 2-handed weapon you can for a character of your size. Then get Improved Feint as soon as you can. Keep your Bluff skill maxed every level also.

The goal of this character build is to charge in to attack the enemy on the first round, then each subsequent round after that you use Improved Feint as your movement action, which allows you to add sneak attack damage on your next hit during your standard action (because a feint makes someone flat-footed). That way you can charge in and pound on someone with sneak attack damage without having to wait for party members to flank and without having to take the time to stealth.

The reason I advocate a 2-handed weapon is because you can't use a second weapon when doing the feint-and-strike (dual weapons require a full attack and you can't use a movement action in that round).

Your character would be an in-your-face, scrappy dirty fighter. For fun, get lots of ranks in Intimidate also, which your high charisma will help with.

[lord_khaine]

you did not mention anything about a ToB fobia, so thats what i will suggest you could use.
there 2 ToB things that i think would be usefull for your idea, you could either use the Giant-killing stance, that gives you +2 to hit and +4 to damage against everything larger than you, or you could use Shadow Blade, and get your Dex Bonus to damage.

this is of course in addition to all the other nice stuff you get from ToB.

[Eldariel]

Umm, how about just being a Rogue, forgetting about Feinting and being Invisible, casting Grease (from a Wand) under the opponent, flanking the opponents or whatever and full attack TWF Sneak Attacking their faces?

Really, past the first few levels, your Str is meh and your weapon damage doesn't mean a crap. Here're the real damage sources of the game:
-Power Attack
-Precision Damage (such as Sneak Attack)
-Spells (that is, buff spells)
-Str buffs


The Str penalty is annoying, but if you have splatbooks, you can just ignore that crap and use Dex for attack and damage instead. So yes, you can build just about any kind of melee fighter as a small character and be just fine. And as linked, you can even make being small an additional source of damage with some books (such as Races of Stone and Tome of Battle).

So yes, you can make any type of melee warrior (and any class) work for a small character. Except probably Monk ('cause unlike everyone else, their damage comes from die size), but since you wouldn't want to play a Monk anyways (It's a trap!), that doesn't really matter. So every melee type is just fine as small and some are actually better off small than large.

The biggest drawback is that Enlarge Person doesn't make you Large which means worse reach so lockdown isn't all that good for small character (although you can still threaten 10' with a Spiked Chain, so even it's workable).

[Tempest Fennac]

Something else that might work based on Atamasama's idea. Play as a Generic Warrior, http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Generic_Classes , and take Hide, Move Silently and Bluff as class skills. This would let you Feint and you'd be able to take feats which grant Sneak Attack if you keep MS and Hide maxed out. Being able to take Favoured Enemies would help as well. For instance, I'd build the character like this:

(Using a 32 Point Buy): Str: 14, Dex: 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 12.

Maxed Hide, MS and Bluff.

(I know having higher Cha would help with Feinting, but I needed a Wis of 14 for Combat Focus, which would let you access Combat Vigor, which grants Fast Healing, and Combat Stability, which makes it easier to resist trips and bull rushes).

1: Power Attack, Sneak Attack.
2: Heavy Armour Proficiency.
3: Favoured Enemy (Undead).
4: Favoured Enemy (Construct).
6: Combat Focus, Combat Stability.
8: Improved Sneak Attack.
9: Combat Vigor.
10: Favoured Enemy (Elemental).
12: Favoured Enemy (Plant).
14: Cleave.
15: Greater Sneak Attack.
16: Favoured Enemy (Abberration).
18: Favoured Enemy (Evil Outsider), Favoured Enemy (Dragon).
20: Favoured Enemy (Giant).

It may work better if you take the heavy armour proficiency later (Generic Warriors don't automatically get it for some reason). The FE choices are based initially on things which can't be SAed.

[BobVosh]

Why is everyone suggesting SA? For the most part all you lose is 1 average damage per for being small. You make up for this by being small and getting +1 to hit. So just PA for one more. Net +1 damage.

Superchargers and pretty much any build that uses the human extra feat is fine with stronghearted halfling.

Also I know it isn't terribly optimized, but you can do a lot of the fun mounted stuff with halfling outrider, and do it in dungeons.

[Tempest Fennac]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a is useful if you want an animal companion and your class doesn't give you one.

[Triaxx]

Play a Kobold. Now you have the bite attack. Now be a druid. Four levels and you're an invincible melee warrior. Next challenge?

[Tempest Fennac]

Phanatons get less of a Str penalty then Kobolds and they have a 1d4 Bit attack as well. I know Totamists are a poor choice for them because they have a Con penalty, but I know there's an ability which gives you 3 Bite attacks at level 2 if you take that class. That could be useful. Phanatons are on page 32 of http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Races.pdf .

[Darrin]

So, is it possible to build a melee power house packed inside a tiny dude?

Is Basset King's 1d2 Crusader on this forum somewhere? I think infinite damage might just fit your criteria...

The Other Killer Gnome has already been mentioned... there was a thread last year where Person_Man was trying to get a PC as small as possible, fine or diminuative, to take advantage of a Confound the Big Folk/Gnome Quickblade/Iajutsu focus combo.

I think hengeyokai, the shapeshifter humanoids in Oriental Adventures, might fit the bill, if you can figure out how a humingbird can hold a quickblade.

A small-sized Totemist 20 sounds more like what you want. Throw on Superior Unarmed Strike, Hidden Talent for Expansion, maybe a template or two like Feral + Mineral Warrior.

[Tempest Fennac]

That was mentioned a while back. It was a few months ago, though.

[Behold_the_Void]

Riding dog and two-handing a lance with power attack and spirited charge seems to work well, even if your GM likes to run dungeon crawls since you'll still actually fit.

[Eldariel]

Also, small guys can ride Medium Dragons. Great for supermount builds.

[Olo Demonsbane]

My brother wanted to make characters to fight each other, but he was worried that I would easily beat him. So I suggested that he be an awakened gorrila with 3 levels (geshalt) and I be a halfling with 5 levels (geshalt). After he agreed, I utterly destroyed him with my fighter/ranger/samuri/cleric/wu jen. It was pretty awesome.

[monty]

Phanatons get less of a Str penalty then Kobolds and they have a 1d4 Bit attack as well. I know Totamists are a poor choice for them because they have a Con penalty, but I know there's an ability which gives you 3 Bite attacks at level 2 if you take that class. That could be useful. Phanatons are on page 32 of http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Races.pdf .

Yeah, but then you're not a kobold.

[ericgrau]

Yes, you get a +1 size bonus to AB to counter the strength penalty and a +1 size bonus to AC on top of that. Plus if you're a halfling you get another +1 dex bonus to AC or if you're a gnome you get +2 con. If you fight with a longsword you'll be 2 points of damage behind, or 2.5 damage behind if you fight with a great sword. No big loss, for a lot of gain. Small creatures work very well in melee. In fact, larger creatures need a strength bonus or con bonus or bonus feat or etc. (which they have) just to balance it out and match them. But I'd much rather have a small creature than an elf or half-elf in melee; maybe even a human depending on how bad you need that feat.

At range things get even better, as they eat maybe 1 or 2 damage for [+1 AB and +2 con] or [+2 AB and +2 AC] vs., well, not much for the large races.

Their one major weakness is special attacks: grappling, trippling, disarming, etc. That'd be a problem if it comes up in your games.

If you weapon finesse you'll even be 1 or 2 points ahead on AB, but your damage will suffer so I wouldn't do that on a fighter/barbarian/ranger/paladin. It works for rogues, but rogues aren't a primary melee class since they're super fragile and the mid BAB cancels some of your extra damage.

So, short answer, small races are at least as good as big ones in melee, sometimes better, unless you're trying to build a control fighter.

[AslanCross]

Tome of Battle's Setting Sun and Stone Dragon schools have options that give you the ability to grapple with larger enemies. The Setting Sun throws allow you to use Dex instead of Strength when tripping, so there's a lot of potential there.

[Curmudgeon]

I also think you should focus on damage that's not dependent on your size. Precision damage (sneak attack, skirmish) fits that bill. There's also Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle), which basically gives you the unarmed damage of a small size Monk -- regardless of your size. Add Improved Natural Attack for one size increase and you're in pretty good shape. The various ways to get 10' of movement with a full attack for skirmish damage (DC 40 Tumble check, Travel Devotion feat, Belt of Battle, & c.) combine well with this. And you can use a mostly Rogue build with 3 levels of Scout to get both nearly full sneak attack and full skirmish damage: just take Swift Ambusher (Complete Scoundrel).

[Waspinator]

Anything Tome of Battle related sounds like a good choice, due to a lot of maneuvers doing damage independent of your weapon dice or size.

[MustacheFart]

Wow, thanks all! You all have definitely given me some great ideas and a lot of good input.

I have a couple questions that indirectly has to do with this subject.

What is the size of a house cat? Also whats rule on mounts - do you have to be just one size smaller?

Basically, I really think the idea of riding in on a house cat is pure gold. I mean it would need to be about that size. Any bigger of a cat and you lose the coolness I think lol.

[Curmudgeon]

What is the size of a house cat?

A cat is tiny (1' - 2'); a kitten is diminutive (6" - 1'). See here.

Also whats rule on mounts - do you have to be just one size smaller?

No, but you'll have double troubles with Ride: restricted usage if you're more than one size smaller, and constant penalties for an animal not normally suited to the task.

If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a -5 penalty on your Ride checks.

You can attempt to mount or dismount from a mount of up to one size category larger than yourself as a free action, provided that you still have a move action available that round.

[MustacheFart]

A cat is tiny (1' - 2'); a kitten is diminutive (6" - 1'). See here. No, but you'll have double troubles with Ride: restricted usage if you're more than one size smaller, and constant penalties for an animal not normally suited to the task.

Okay, so if I played a small character that uses reduce person to become tiny, I could then take the wild cohort feat, get a house cat, train it to be a mount, and ride it into combat?


Also I remember see a collar for animals that decreases their size by two categories I think. If I'm right I could have that active on the cat making him fine? Then I could carry him around in my backpack unseen (kitty is fragile). When I wish to use him, I could pull him out, remove the collar, and mount up.

All that said, how do pounce work with a lance, a mount, and ride by attack?