[3.5] CA: Sublime Chord and Argent Savant

[Optimystik]

So I took a gander at a friend's Complete Arcane recently, and two PrCs caught my eye: Sublime Chord and Argent Savant.

...am I reading this correctly? A bard that can cast 9th level sorcerer spells and increase her caster level with a perform check? And the SC levels stack with Bard levels for determining spells known, caster level etc.? The other songs seemed seemed meh, although Timeless Song was nice as a non-mind-affecting Will save. What am I missing that makes this class worse than I see it?

As for Argent Savant, pretty much the same thing - the class looks sweet at first blush but I just know there's something about it I'm missing. I guess losing a caster level might not be worth the small boost to damage and defenses, but I find force damage to be the most useful in the game next to divine and positive. Zap, bye-bye ghosts.

So I guess what I'm asking is, why aren't these more popular? What am I missing?

[Keld Denar]

Um....Sublime Chord is probably THE most popular Bard PrC class....ever! Sooooooo many builds go something like Bard9/Virtuoso1/SublimeChord2/Virtuoso8, using Virtuoso to continue on your SC casting. SC doesn't really get much good OTHER than casting, so why not use another PrC to advance that, and get other good class features.

Argent Savant is actually pretty bad. It loses a caster level, and focuses on doing something that wizards and sorcs do worse than others....damage. Leave the damage to the classes that ONLY have that option, like Barbarians. You have more important things to do, like telling the universe to sit down and shut up. Read up on the GOD style and Batman style of wizard play, and you'll see how poor MM spamming really is.

[Optimystik]

Um....Sublime Chord is probably THE most popular Bard PrC class....ever! Sooooooo many builds go something like Bard9/Virtuoso1/SublimeChord2/Virtuoso8, using Virtuoso to continue on your SC casting. SC doesn't really get much good OTHER than casting, so why not use another PrC to advance that, and get other good class features.

Ah, so it IS good! I thought so!
I assumed otherwise because I didn't see many builds that mentioned it. i guess I just didn't look hard enough

Argent Savant is actually pretty bad. It loses a caster level, and focuses on doing something that wizards and sorcs do worse than others....damage. Leave the damage to the classes that ONLY have that option, like Barbarians. You have more important things to do, like telling the universe to sit down and shut up. Read up on the GOD style and Batman style of wizard play, and you'll see how poor MM spamming really is.

Well I wasn't thinking so much missile spam as I was the "Hand" spells. Although both could certainly be fun, I see your point about being the Batman or the Buffer. But consider an AS that also used a spell like etherealness or a similar item to be incorporeal most of the time - she'd have strong defense against the one thing that can harm incorporeal creatures, namely force damage, thanks to Ablate Force. And on top of that, with Unbind Force she could unravel force walls and spheres instead of having to float around them or disintegrate them, possibly even blasting something on the far side. Not OP certainly, but I could see it being handy.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

SC is really good, but only because it takes Bard from "Jack-of-all-Trades" to Sorcerer. It's really best combo'd with another PrC to give you both Bard abilities and 9th level spells, otherwise, it's not really any better than Sorc(with appropriate PrCs).

[Peppercat]

I know this is quite old but, try warmage as base class and then get on to argent savant. I've tried it once, but with the frost (ice) adaptation and it worked just fine (:

[Chronos]

And the SC levels stack with Bard levels for determining spells known, caster level etc.?

Just the caster level. Once you start taking Sublime Chord levels, you don't get any more spells known or per day as a bard. You do, though, get spells known and per day as a Sublime Chord, which is better.

[Starscream]

I like Argent Savant actually, but only the first three levels. Doubling the duration of the Hand spells is pretty cool, and combining the defense bonus with Greater Mage armor essentially allows you to wear full plate without and spell failure chance.

The prereqs are pretty easy as well. A decent wizard is sure to have ranks in Spellcraft and Arcana, and anyone interested in this class will have a bunch of Force spells anyway.