[3.5] Whack & Smack (help needed at char optimization)

[Eloel]

I'm currently playing in a D&D3.5 arena game, where everyone starts out at level 8. I'm limited to Core + 1 of the "Complete" books + 1 any official 3.5 book + Underdark. Starting gold is 5k. How would you go about creating a (strictly no-magic) character, that could whack a VoP Druid?. I can't take VoP myself, and I can't use ANY magic. (think AMF)

A barbarian/frenzied berserker/bear warrior leading into Warshaper for +5 reach & +4 str/con looked good to me, but couldn't really make the build.

I may have to hit an AC of around 60 at times.

[Draz74]

Unfortunate that one of your two free sourcebooks has to be a Complete. I was going to say Raptoran Warblade. But you can't use both Tome of Battle and Races of the Wild ...

Is there any nonmagical way in any of the Completes to pick up flight? Preferably with a hefty Jump bonus attached?

Well, anyway, Warblade is worth looking into. Totally nonmagical warrior. Max out Concentration and Jump checks, dual-wield kukris, and smack things with Ruby Nightmare Blade, Insightful Strike, Emerald Razor, and Death from Above. With the Blood in the Water stance enhancing them all.

Emerald Razor, in particular, sounds like it will be a favorite. It lets you make a normal attack, as a standard action, against the target's Touch AC instead of normal AC. "AC 80? More like 15. "

This is more fun to play, but probably less effective in an arena, than the Dungeoncrasher or Ubercharger builds that other people will now be recommending ...

[Seffbasilisk]

I'd go with Complete Warrior and the Magic Item Compendium.

Go Barbarian/FB.

Grab an Heartseeking Amulet. 3/day that lets you make a melee attack a touch attack.

Win init, Rage, Frenzy, Charge, use Amulet, power attack for full...

I have a ECL 20 goliath build that used that set up and ended up doing over 600 damage per blow.

[Eloel]

Unfortunate that one of your two free sourcebooks has to be a Complete. I was going to say Raptoran Warblade. But you can't use both Tome of Battle and Races of the Wild ...

Is there any nonmagical way in any of the Completes to pick up flight? Preferably with a hefty Jump bonus attached?

Well, anyway, Warblade is worth looking into. Totally nonmagical warrior. Max out Concentration and Jump checks, dual-wield kukris, and smack things with Ruby Nightmare Blade, Insightful Strike, Emerald Razor, and Death from Above. With the Blood in the Water stance enhancing them all.

Emerald Razor, in particular, sounds like it will be a favorite. It lets you make a normal attack, as a standard action, against the target's Touch AC instead of normal AC. "AC 80? More like 15. "

This is more fun to play, but probably less effective in an arena, than the Dungeoncrasher or Ubercharger builds that other people will now be recommending ...

I'm not sure there's anything that can grant me flight. I can use a reach weapon, be large, have the extended reach thingy, and get 20ft range. The highest map is around 40-50ft high, so that leaves me with 15-20ft to jump :)
(The high AC is touch AC&Flatfooted AC, so Emerald Razor won't help)



On a related-y note, would DFA's breath weapon work in AMF?

[Eloel]

I forgot to state MIC is banned for anything but weap enchantments. And we're in AMF.

[Keld Denar]

Ewww...you need to hit AC60 at ECL8...GL mang.

I'd look into something more like Grappling. Grabbing is a touch attack, and druids typically have less than stellar touch ACs.

Using just CW and Races of Stone you could go:

Ranger1/Barb2/Fighter2/Deepwarden2/BearWarrior1

Blackbear form gives you Imp Grab, but you probably won't use it. For feats, take IUS, Imp Grab, and since you'll be medium sized, maybe Cleaver Wreastler (normally bad, but in this case maybe good?). Other than that, nab Endurance(prereq) > Steadfast Determination is good.

You need more levels and more books. If you could pop off something like WS Ranger5/MasterofManyForms2/NaturesWarrior1, you could shift into a Furbolg and then grab and constrict with your NW Serpents Coils. That would be ideal....

[Eloel]

Rechecking it, it's only 45, the 60 was another build quite a few levels above.
35 Touch & Flat-footed.

[Iku Rex]

How is the druid getting AC 45 in an AMF? Wild Shape is (Su). So is the armor and deflection bonus from VOP. Buff spells won't work. He can't use magic items.

I'm calling shenanigans.

[Eloel]

How is the druid getting AC 45 in an AMF? Wild Shape is (Su). So is the armor and deflection bonus from VOP. Buff spells won't work. He can't use magic items.

I'm calling shenanigans.

High Wis, 1 level of Monk, Saint.

[Eloel]

I think I'll go unarmed (grappling) route (since I can't enchant weapons anyway). What are good feats for me to take?

[olentu]

How is the druid getting AC 45 in an AMF? Wild Shape is (Su). So is the armor and deflection bonus from VOP. Buff spells won't work. He can't use magic items.

I'm calling shenanigans.

Actually if I am remembering correctly all exalted feats are supernatural abilities. I am not however looking at my copy of the BoED so I am reasonably but not totally sure on the matter.

[Iku Rex]

High Wis, 1 level of Monk, Saint.

Still not seeing AC 45 in an AMF.

[Iku Rex]

Actually if I am remembering correctly all exalted feats are supernatural abilities. I am not however looking at my copy of the BoED so I am reasonably but not totally sure on the matter.

Some of the VOP abilities are (Ex). But the relevant ones are Ability Score Enhancement and Natural Armor, and you don't get those with 6 character levels (ECL 8 saint). Even if the druid is ECL 10, +1 natural armor and +2 Wis won't help that much in getting AC 45.

[olentu]

Some of the VOP abilities are (Ex). But the relevant ones are Ability Score Enhancement and Natural Armor, and you don't get those with 6 character levels (ECL 8 saint). Even if the druid is ECL 10, +1 natural armor and +2 Wis won't help that much in getting AC 45.

I am not talking about vow of poverty in particular. Since I dug up my copy I mean that the BoED says that exalted feats are supernatural in nature, rather then them being extraordinary abilities. And I would say that the most reasonable interpretation is that all exalted feats are supernatural abilities similar to how psionic feats are supernatural abilities.

[Eloel]

I am not talking about vow of poverty in particular. Since I dug up my copy I mean that the BoED says that exalted feats are supernatural in nature, rather then them being extraordinary abilities. And I would say that the most reasonable interpretation is that all exalted feats are supernatural abilities similar to how psionic feats are supernatural abilities.

I see now. That's nice.
Would anyone care to help me decide what to get with the last 5k (and other money I may earn)?

[Iku Rex]

I am not talking about vow of poverty in particular.

No, but I am. Like I said, some of the VOP abilties are (Ex).

Maybe you'll believe the FAQ:

The Book of Exalted Deeds states on page 39 that exalted
feats are supernatural abilities and not extraordinary
abilities like other feats. Does that mean that I lose the
benefits from my exalted feats in an antimagic field?
Correct. Unless specifically stated otherwise, the benefits
granted by exalted feats are considered supernatural abilities
and thus don’t function in areas of antimagic.
Some of the special abilities granted by the Vow of Poverty
(and described under “Voluntary Poverty” on pages 29–31) are
specifically described as extraordinary (such as the natural
armor bonus gained at 8th level). These abilities are retained in
areas of antimagic, even if other abilities from the same feat (or
from other exalted feats) are not.

[olentu]

No, but I am. Like I said, some of the VOP abilties are (Ex).

Maybe you'll believe the FAQ:

I in general do not believe the FAQ is necessarily correct, I consider the FAQ as only the FAQ authors interpretation of the rules.

So my reasoning about the feats is this (using vow of poverty as an example) the benefit of the feat is that the character gains the voluntary poverty stuff. The only way to interpret exalted feats granting supernatural abilities that makes sense to me is that the ability granted by the feat is the benefit of the feat outlined in the benefit section as no other section really fits. So basically the character has a supernatural ability that says "This character gains the benefits listed in the voluntary poverty stuff." Then when in an antimagic field the ability granted by the benefit line goes away and so the character no longer gains the benefits listed in the voluntary poverty stuff.


If the voluntary poverty stuff was granted by an extraordinary ability I would say that only the supernatural voluntary poverty stuff would be lost but since a supernatural ability is granting the benefits voluntary poverty stuff when the supernatural ability goes away the benefits of the voluntary poverty stuff is no longer granted to the character.


Edit: I can not really think of anything super fight wining to get that will work in an antimagic field, but one thing to ask the DM is what sort of masterwork tools you can get as a +2 circumstance bonus to a skill might be useful.

[PinkysBrain]

Lets see ... no magic, uber AC ... what OMG broken mechanics remain ... hulking hurler, fear, poison and martial scripts (consumables are really good in arena fights) and various bag of rat tricks (Avalanche of blades + cleave, that sort of stuff) come to mind.

Apart from Hulking Hurler are there any other good non magical AoE attacks? (So you can ignore his AC.) All the martial manoeuvres are too high level.

[Eldariel]

Pick CWar and...let's think about the other book in a moment. Be a Centaur Hulking Hurler. Centaur has +2 LA and 4 Racial HD, but Monstrous Humanoid HD seems to have full BAB. You'll have to take a Fighter-level here for the bonus feat.

You max Str, and I dunno about anything else. Then you enter Hulking Hurler on level 8 (you really want the second level of it though to get Area Attack and third for Overburden Heave). As a base, you can have Str 18+8 Race + 1 level = 27 (provided that you truly can't boost it with items). You get a carrying capacity of 1038 with this. That means that you can throw 9d6+Str damage rocks. In two levels, the numbers would multiply (and in three, you'd get Barbarian-level and then be able to enter War Hulk if you picked Miniatures Handbook, but that's not relevant now), but for now that'll have to do for now.

If you have any form of Level Adjustment Buyoff or some such, you'll be golden (could you pick Unearthed Arcana as your book and get LA buyoff?). Either way, what you want is the Throw Trick "Area Attack", which means that instead of having to try to beat opponents' stupid AC, you make them make a save vs. obscene numbers (~30) or take a crapton of damage. It also means you need to just approximately guess where they are instead of trying to locate them.


Right now your attack bonuses are:
6 BAB + 8 Str + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Mw. - 1 size = +15; these numbers have seen better days. When attacking with an Improvised Weapon (that is, a rock), your bonuses become +11, which just sucks. You're also a fine melee character with Power Attack though so I wouldn't despair. Just keep a Guisarme handy to trip anyone; chances are you'll have the highest Str in the house (you can match a Raging Orc Barbarian starting with 18).

Next level though, you get Area Attack which is gonna be the key. Now, the big question is the second book. You could pick Complete Adventurer for Brutal Throw, Miniatures Handbook for War Hulk, Races of Stone for Reckless Rage, Unearthed Arcana for Flaws, LA buyoff, Whirling Frenzy and all that (pick this if you can get all those; flaws would allow you to go straight Barbarian and massively increase your efficiency and LA buyoff would get you Area Attack this level already).


For the record, with the Barbarian-level and LA buyoff, you'd have:
Carrying Capacity: 1836 lb
Damage: 13d6+10

Much better already. You'd also have two loose feats for e.g. Improved Unarmed Strike + Improved Grapple, Combat Expertise + Improved Trip, Improved Bull Rush + Shock Trooper, Dodge + Mobility (heading into Elusive Target), Improved Overrun, Quick Draw (for throwing multiple rocks per turn), etc. Also remember that as a quadroped, Centaur has +4 resistance against Trip, Bull Rush, etc. and +4 from Large, which means that combined with your massive strength, you should be fine against all those modes of attack. Just rack up your Con and Dex and try to make attacking your inconvenient for the opponent.


In short, I suggest the following:
Centaur Barbarian 1/Hulking Hurler 2 (1 point of LA bought off already, second will be bought off on level 9), 4 racial HD

Feats:
1. Power Attack
F. Weapon Focus: Javelin
F. Point Blank Shot
3. Open
6. Open

Flaws could be e.g. Feeble ('cause your stats are big enough to mostly ignore it anyways) and Pathetic: Cha ('cause who needs Charisma anyways). You haven't outlined stat generation, so I can't help there, but basically just max Str, get high Con and Dex and do whatever with the mental stats. And you'll want to buy a cart (that you can easily drag since you're a quadroped; your drag-load is something like 15600lb when not Raging).

After finishing Hurler, you could go to Frenzied Berserker or whatever; anything that increases your Str is good.