The Best Bow in Core [3,5]

[drevil]

I have a Core Cleric Archer lvl16 with 250.000gp.
I only want to do alot of damage.

Which bow should I buy?

My idea is:
+1 Flaming Frost Shock Holy Composite Longbow (Mighty +10 STR)
with a Greater Magic Item buff.

How does upgrading magic weapons work?
For instance; what does upgrading from +1 to +2 longbow cost?

[Eloel]

Oathbow is great, if you enchant it further.

[drevil]

Interesting.
How can I enchant Oathbow further?
Greater Magic Weapon only?
Or can I somehow give it the Fire, Shock, Frost ability.

I have 250.000gp to spend on a single bow.
Surely, there is another more damage dealing bow in core?

[Otodetu]

How does upgrading magic weapons work?
For instance; what does upgrading from +1 to +2 longbow cost?

Subtract the price of the old enchantment from the cost of new enchantment cost

so upgrading from +1 (2000) to +2 (8000) will cost 6000

[kamikasei]

Upgrading a weapon: work out the cost of the new item if it was being made from scratch and deduct the cost of the existing weapon. So, a +1 weapon costs 2000gp, a +2 8000; upgrading a +1 to a +2 costs 6000. a +1 flaming sword becoming a +2 flaming frost sword goes from +2 to +4 total, a difference of 24,000gp.

[Otodetu]

I have 250.000gp to spend on a single bow.
Surely, there is another more damage dealing bow in core?

the great bow deals 1d10 as opposed to 1d8, and the range is a bit better, costs a feat though.

If you have 250.000 to spend on a bow after all your other gear then you surly play a very high powered game... If not then i would suggest equipping your characters with other random magical items before dumping the cash on a single weapon.

[drevil]

On lvl 16, we start with 260.000gp (according to DMG).
I wanted to use about 100.000gp on equipment, and 160.000gp on a bow.
And then I wanted to pimp the bow further as we play.

Thats why I am trying to find the most effective damage dealing bow in core.

People of giantitp, help a brother-noob!

[Eldariel]

Oathbow is trash. I've used one, and it's frankly worse than a +1 Holy bow which also happens to cost a crapton less (especially since Greater Magic Weapon trivializes the enchantments), and is enchantable better. Really, your build is pretty much about as good as it gets in Core; Seeking is also worthwhile unless you have Improved Precise Shot, but since you probably do have it, Seeking is rather wasted too. So yea, Holy Flaming Frost Shock bow is fine; just hope you don't run into foes resistant to all 3 elements and it might do something useful.

Get a bunch of magical Bane: Important Enemy Type-arrows for that and you'll be set.

[drevil]

Bane arrows is a very good idea.


+1 Flaming Frost Shock Holy Composite Longbow (+10 STR)

The most effective damage dealer in core?
At best (with buff and Gr.Bracers of Archery), "only" 30 damage each arrow?
Boots and Rapid Shot is nice, but still, I think there is something missing.

I know people out there can trump a noob like me!

[RavKal]

Yeah, the bane weapon enhancements are good. I wouldn't get the greatbow, since it costs a feat for some minor dmg/range bonuses. You're a cleric, abuse your spells. You could probably find some way to pimp out just a plain old bow if you tried.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi,

I would not say that an oathbow is "trash", but for a level 16 character with a STR modifier of +10, it is no longer the best option available...

Since you are a cleric, you might be able to create the bow completely by yourself with the necessary item creation feat and crafting skill.
In that case, you could go for a +9/+10 equivalent item bonus. That would cost 162,000 or 200,000 plus the masterwork STR +10 bow cost, but
1) either your DM allows the widespread notion that you can save a lot of your wbl by just making you pay the material cost (half of the total cost) or
2) you have the advantage in all cases to get the weapon for the headline price deducted from your wbl; you'll never be dependent on a huge metropolis to buy it from someone.

With +9/+10 enhancement equivalent, you could get:
+1 enhance, frost, shock and holy (the stuff you listed, not necessarily flame, since you can get that from the party wizard's flame arrow), for a total of +5.
Then, add in seeking - it is worth more than just the precise shot feat, since you also get the effect against total concealment (a problem you'll possibly often encounter at high levels).
Then, add in three/four different bane enchantments. It depends on the campaign, but among the truly remaining challenging opponents of the highest levels are: dragons, undead and evil outsiders (and potentially constructs in a +10 enhancement weapon).
That could net you around a total of +7d6+2 per hit against some opponents.

- Giacomo

[drevil]

Thanks, sir!

But dont you think its better to make arrows of bane instead?
Its cheaper.
I dont want to use a feat on Item Creation, because clerics dont get much feats.

Do you think Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration is handy for high level cleric Archers?
Harm, Holy Word ect still requires Spell Resistance.

Other good Core Bows? Keep 'em coming!

[Sir Giacomo]

Yes, you can of course also get arrows of bane, but you'd run out of them after a while (depends, again, on the campaign). Maybe replace two of the bane enchantments with an axiomatic power, and then get more specific bane arrows.

Concerning the feats in general:
In case your DM thinks you can lower the item cost this way and thus have more items for your wbl, the item creation feat is certainly worth it.

Concerning the spell penetration feats:
You can get prayer bead item that will add +4 to your caster level, which already does the trick quite well.
Harm and holy word are touhc/40ft range spells, so that may oppose your archery theme somewhat.

For other core bows:
You could also try the crossbow route and dual-wield repeating crossbows with the feats as human: exotic weapon proficiency repeating Xbow, point blank shot, rapid shot, two-weapon fighting, improved twf, greater twf
With boots of speed (haste) and a divine power buff up, you'd have a total of 9 attacks, possibly with two +7 equivalent crossbows.
But that would not make use of your high STR score. You'd get more criticals though, with the improved critical feat.

- Giacomo

[Zen Monkey]

Are you playing a Dex-based archer or a Wis-based Zen Archer? The answer will affect the range at which you're firing, which affects the decision about which type of bow is best. If you need to be within 30' of your target, then a bow with a better range doesn't matter.

[Eldariel]

Hi,

I would not say that an oathbow is "trash", but for a level 16 character with a STR modifier of +10, it is no longer the best option available...

Meh, it's trash in the sense that it costs way too much for what it does. If it was equivalent of a +2 weapon in price, it'd be awesome (and at +3, decent) - it just costs 7000 more than that. The enhancement bonus is almost entirely negated by Greater Magic Weapon starting from level 11 (with a Cleric in party; at that point you get +4 from Greater Magic Weapon and it lasts 16 hours). The 2d6 is negated by the fact that it's not, among others, Holy. Also, you generally want to name Big Bad Evil Guys and those have the annoying tendency of escaping when things begin to peter out, in which case you'll have a Mw. Longbow for 7 days.

At +3 weapon, I might use it, but as things stand, it's just eww. Except the phrase of Elven. That part is cool.


Generally you also shouldn't get a +10 weapon. That just costs too much and if it ever gets broken/destroyed/whatever, you'll cry; in this case, a +6-+7 weapon gets all the worthwhile abilities already so that's where you'll want to stop. When buying a +10 weapon, you'll have to ask yourself if the last enhancements are worth the growing price. In the case of Banes, for example, arrows are so much cheaper. Adding Bane: Anything to a +7 (that is, +1 Holy Frost Shock Seeking for example - good point on Flame Arrow, although the two could stack) bow costs 30000gp. By contrary, a stack of 50 Bane Arrows costs you mere 8000gp You could easily get 150 Bane arrows for the price you'd enhance your bow, and still have ~5000gp laying around. Chances are, unless the campaign solely focuses on one creature type (in which case, getting Bane: That Type is naturally worth it), you won't get to even use 150 arrows of any given type. And additional Banes cost even more; 34000gp for the next and 38000gp for the last.

[drevil]

This is CORE.
Zen-Archery is not CORE.


I am in a neutral good alignment group.
What is the most usual encounter types at high level?
Dragons, Evil Outsider and Undead? (I know its abit difficult to answer)

Have we found the best damage dealing bow in CORE?



NOT RELATED TO ORIGINAL POST

I would really like to increase my cross-class spot/listen skill.
Is there a CORE-way to make it a class skill? :)
(I did buy Eyes of the Eagle)

If I max diplomacy out with ranks and magic, I can get +35diplomacy.
Can the this skill be used in a battle?
It says that using a full-round action on the skill gives you -10.
1D20+25 can always make "Hostile" become "indifferent".
50% will even become "friendly".
How does it work?

[Sir Giacomo]

Hmm

Eldariel has a good point on the bane thing. Yep, rather get them as arrows and keep the bow cheaper overall.

Then, your spot class skill idea: in core, it is only possible via multi-classing (a level of ranger perhaps), or even a LA creature (like centaur with +2 LA, meaning you get a centaur Cleric of only 10th level I think - but hey, you also get +8 to STR and darkvision, among other goodies...).
To save some rank costs, you could use the loremaster prestige class (and not lose caster levels) and get the skill rank secret, but that would still mean spot remains a cross-class skill.

Diplomcay indeed works as you said - but watch out, since
- 1 round total time of use means you cannot do anything else WHILE a high-level opponent can unleash the fury on you. Whether you can maintain your diplomacy skill in that case is up to the DM and necessitates normally a quite steep concentration roll (depending on the opponent's action)
- with your roll, you can (as given as an example in the skill description) calm an opponent, but the moment someone attacks again (or you attack), the diplomacy effect is gone. There is no "duration" attached to the resulting state of the diplomacy check, so the diplomacie'd npc or creature will at any moment be able to revert to different behaviour when something new comes up (like your hidden allies appear, or other opponents appear asking why said diplomacie'd opponent has stopped fighting etc.)

- Giacomo

[ericgrau]

I have a Core Cleric Archer lvl16 with 250.000gp.
I only want to do alot of damage.

Which bow should I buy?

My idea is:
+1 Flaming Frost Shock Holy Composite Longbow (Mighty +10 STR)
with a Greater Magic Item buff.

How does upgrading magic weapons work?
For instance; what does upgrading from +1 to +2 longbow cost?

First off, consider what your main goal is:
Cleric: +18 AB = 12 (BAB) + 1 (weapon focus) +4 (greater magic weapon) + 1 (Heroes' Feast)
Fighter: +19 AB = 16 (BAB) + 2 (greater weapon focus) + 1 (+1 weapon)
The fighter also gets higher stats b/c he doesn't need as much wisdom, 1 more damage and 5 more misc. feats to play with. The difference is that, as a cleric, you can buff your buddies as well. Including your fighter buddy, giving him a whopping +23 AB.

With 250k gold and an archer focus, I'd blow half to get a +7 bow and 100 +2 arrows: There's holy (+2), merciful (+1), wounding (+2), frost (+1) and shock (+1). Net +5d6 + 1 con (which is worth more than 2d6). Look up merciful. I don't like flaming because too many creatures are immune, but that can be your next enchantment. The nice thing about arrows are that you can swap in the ones you want to use other situational enchantments people have suggested like bane.

For more attacks get boots of speed unless there's a friendly mage to haste you, rapid shot, and maybe multishot.

The best way to upgrade your spot modifier is to show the DM the spot and hide rules. It is a DC 0 spot check to see something, +1 per 10 feet of distance. Someone engaged in battle, etc. is a DC -20 spot check. If a creature does not have cover or concealment - either because it doesn't exist or the creature isn't using it b/c he doesn't know you're coming - he cannot hide. There, now you only need to get enough spot ranks (if any) to see normal creatures, and as for stealthy ones you didn't have much chance of finding them anyway. You could try scouting with spells like detect evil, though, which penetrates certain objects like wooden doors and certain thin cover.

[Draz74]

Yeah -- your bow looks good. Now pick up an array of +2-equivalent arrows.

Besides the Bane people have been recommending (which is great!), you can make your arrows Seeking in case you ever need it. And a small handful of Arrows of Distance is definitely good to be prepared with.

One of the big advantages of archers is that they can customize their weapon to match the combat situation, since magic arrows are so cheap. I love it!

[drevil]

First off, consider what your main goal is:
Cleric: +17 AB = 12 (BAB) + 1 (weapon focus) +3 (greater magic weapon) + 1 (Heroes' Feast)
Fighter: +19 AB = 16 (BAB) + 1 (+1 weapon) + 2 (greater weapon fcocus)
The fighter also gets 2 more damage from feats, higher stats b/c he doesn't need as much wisdom. You could grab another +1 from prayer or the like, but it wouldn't be worth spending a round on it unless you have prep time before the fight. The difference is that, as a cleric, you can buff your buddies as well. Including your fighter buddy, giving him a whopping +22 AB.

With 250k gold and an archer focus, I'd blow half to get a +7 bow and 100 +2 arrows: There's holy (+2), merciful (+1), wounding (+2), frost (+1) and shock (+1). Net +5d6 + 1 con (which is worth more than 2d6).

I have Boots of Speed and Rapid Shot :)
The Cleric use 1 round of buff: Divine Power and Divine Favor (Quicken from Rod of Metamagic, minor).
Cleric: +33 AB = 16 (BAB) + 7 (DEX) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) +3 (greater magic weapon) + 1 (Heroes' Feast) +3 (Divine Favor) + 2 (Bracers of Archery)
Not to mention all the magic and healing!

Merciful is a great idea! Wow!
But wounding is not available on bows! Only on melee weapons.

Thanks!

[Eldariel]

Isn't your Greater Magic Weapon +5 by now? CL 16+Bead of Karma each morning = CL20 for your buffs (and the Ioun Stone for an extra +1 for CL21 buffs).

Also, add Quickened Righteous Might (through Metamagic Rod of Quicken stored in your Glove of Storing - free action to pick it to hand and put it away meaning you can just let hand go off the bow as a free action, acquire Rod as a free action, cast the quickened Righteous Might as a swift action, put rod away as a free action and make a full attack) to that buff suite round 2.


And your Spot is as good as it's about to get. You can try the Mw. Tools, ask if you could further get your Eyes of the Eagle enchanted (for a better modifier) and so on, but you're limited to cross-class without multiclassing or non-core feats. That said, Spot is a Wisdom-based skill and a Cleric's Wisdom should be skyhigh on those levels (I'd guess around 30), so you've got fine modifiers to make up for it being crossclass. Core doesn't offer means of acquiring new class skills outside multiclassing.

[ericgrau]

I have Boots of Speed and Rapid Shot :)
The Cleric use 1 round of buff: Divine Power and Divine Favor (Quicken from Rod of Metamagic, minor).
Cleric: +33 AB = 16 (BAB) + 7 (DEX) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) +3 (greater magic weapon) + 1 (Heroes' Feast) +3 (Divine Favor) + 2 (Bracers of Archery)
Not to mention all the magic and healing!

Merciful is a great idea! Wow!
But wounding is not available on bows! Only on melee weapons.

Thanks!

I didn't include AB stuff that both classes had in common before. Alright then, a quickened divine favor puts you 2 points of AB above the unbuffed fighter. Actually 1 point if you don't grab weapon focus. Plus the MAD and less feats. Don't forget to pick up precise shot, btw. Your DM really needs to toss a targeted dispel magic or AMF at you . I'd refrain from divine power in combats of ~4-5 rounds or less, as you can't afford the casting time.

You'll be better off dealing damage instead of healing except in emergencies, and even then try to only use your strongest heals. For between battle there's CLW wands. Btw, divine casting is my weak point: what do clerics have besides buffs, healing and removing status effects? Do you use touch range SoD's a lot?

[Eldariel]

Well, with enough work (or Shapechange), the Cleric has all Wizard's spells. Of course, all the non-Shapechange means are non-core so meh. To answer what actual Cleric does:
-Self-buffing as shown here.
-Heal (the spell, not style; it's the only worthwhile healing effect in existence as it heals so much damage that it can actually negate multiple effects from the opponent)
-Area buffs/debuffs and ally buffs (Death Ward, Spell Resistance, etc.)
-Devastating area spells, such as Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictum/Word of Chaos (these are absolutely insane with some CL buffs - no save lose), Control Weather, et co.
-Spot removal like Slay Living, Harm, Hold Monster, Cause Fear, etc.
-Utility like Air Walk, Plane Shift, Word of Recall, Wind Walk, etc.
-Miracle. Seriously, the spell, unlike Wish, doesn't always have an XP cost. The better use of it, replicating Cleric-spells of 8th level or lower and non-Cleric spells of 7th level or lower doesn't cost any XP. It's an incredibly awesome spell and I can't say enough good about it. That said, it's a 9th level spell so that is to be expected.

[drevil]

Eldariel:
good points! Bead of Karma increases the Greater Magiv Weapon enchant.
Can I use Masterwork Spotting Tool and Eyes of the Eagle at the same time?
Both occupy the same area, dont they?
But its a good idea!

ericgrau:
I dont see how a Fighter Archer can challenge a Cleric Archer.

Cleric: +35 AB = 16 (BAB) + 7 (DEX) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) +5 (greater magic weapon) + 1 (Heroes' Feast) +3 (Divine Favor) + 2 (Bracers of Archery)

If a foe is able to cast a good dispel magic on a cleric, imagine what the foe can do to a fighter!

Divine Magic is awesome:
Buff: Divine Fvr, Divine Pwr, Shield-o-Faith, Wind Walk, Rightous M, Feast
Defence: Healing, Spell resistance, Remove Disease/Poison, Dispel, Teleport
Damage: Harm, Flame Strike, Balde Barrier
Scrying (useful in high level)
Summon: Gate, Summon Monster, Planar Ally

This is ADDITIONAL to the stuff fighter is capable of doing.

My favorite spell is Holy Word.
Combine it with Greater Spell Penetration, Bead of Karma and Ioun Stone +1CL, and you can paralyze everything (exept some dragons) without any saves.
And their Spell Resistanse is a mere bagatelle.


So the current bow is:
+1 Flamin, Frost, Shock, Merciful, Holy Composite Longbow
Arrows: Bane [dragon, evil outsider, undead], seeking

Thanks!

[ericgrau]

For clarification, everything below is semi-unimportant tangent stuff. I think you got what you came for .

My cleric education
Outside of miracle and domains, is there any way for a cleric to replicate arcane spells? Or is that everything?

Greater spell penetration only applied to overcoming SR, not caster level in general. A bead of karma costs 20k gp, takes a standard action to use and lasts 10 minutes. Basically 1 fight if you get a buff round or a really long fight, or a round wasting trap if you use it when you don't. The ioun stone is the only way I see to get a permanent +1 caster level, and it's a whopping 30k.

With holy word it seems like only extremely weak creatures will be paralyzed. It seems others would immediately run away if smart. Dragons, giants and golems have too many HD to be affected at all. Even so it's still an effective control spell. Does he have other control spells like this?

For the level their direct damage seems kinda weak. Does the high AoE or anything else about them tend to compensate at all?

Spell resistance seems to have too short of a duration to be frequently useful.

A lot of the utility spells seem cool.

Fighter vs. Cleric archer
Mostly addressed above, relatively unimportant and probably irrelevant in the kinds of games your DM runs anyway. But as for the last statement you do have +12 AB in buffs listed.

Spot
It's up to your DM whether he allows a MW spotting tool at all, and whether or not he lets it stack. It seems fishy to me, I mean what is it? The PH already has a 1000gp spy glass, so I don't think it's binoculars. Is it glasses for people who have normal vision?? That you wear under goggles? See what I mean? I wouldn't allow any of it but your DM might allow it all. FWIW you could stack both skill focus and altertness. Heroism could add +2. A stone of good luck could add +1, but at 20k it's expensive. See also previous comments. Seriously it seems like 90% of the time this is the only skill some DM's use out of all ~40 and then they jack up the DCs on everything that moves. Skill checks, especially above DC 10 are supposed to be for things of heroic difficulty. You're not even supposed to need ranks for basic uses. Y'know what, maybe all heroes are near-sighted and really could benefit from a pair of MW glasses.

[Battleship789]

I dont see how a Fighter Archer can challenge a Cleric Archer.

Cleric: +35 AB = 16 (BAB) + 7 (DEX) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) +5 (greater magic weapon) + 1 (Heroes' Feast) +3 (Divine Favor) + 2 (Bracers of Archery)

If a foe is able to cast a good dispel magic on a cleric, imagine what the foe can do to a fighter!

Your Cleric's BAB is wrong. It should be a 15, for a total bonus of +34.

Let me shed some light:

Fighter 20: +37 AB = 20 (BAB) + 7 (DEX, assuming that the relevant stat is identical) + 1 (PBS) + 5 (+5 weapon) + 2 (Greater Weapon Focus) + 2 (Bracers of Archery)

Without magic, i.e. both dispelled or in an AMF (assuming the dexterity of each stays the same):

Cleric 20: +24 AB = 15 (BAB) + 7 (DEX) + 1 (PBS) + 1 (MWK weapon)
Fighter 20: +31 AB = 20 (BAB) + 7 (DEX) + 1 (PBS) + 1 (MWK weapon) + 2 (GWF)

In both cases, the Fighter has a higher AB and an extra iterative attack. In the first example, this extra attack is only 2 points lower than the Cleric's final attack, at +22 for the Fighter, compared to a +24 for the Cleric. In the "no magic" example, the extra attack is higher than the Cleric's final attack: a +16 for the Fighter as opposed to a +14 for the Cleric.

With splat books, the Cleric outshines the Fighter, though in core only it seems that the fighter actually wins this. (Though I may be missing some information for the Cleric. )

[olentu]

Your Cleric's BAB is wrong. It should be a 15, for a total bonus of +34.

Let me shed some light:

Fighter 20: +37 AB = 20 (BAB) + 7 (DEX, assuming that the relevant stat is identical) + 1 (PBS) + 5 (+5 weapon) + 2 (Greater Weapon Focus) + 2 (Bracers of Archery)

Without magic, i.e. both dispelled or in an AMF (assuming the dexterity of each stays the same):

Cleric 20: +24 AB = 15 (BAB) + 7 (DEX) + 1 (PBS) + 1 (MWK weapon)
Fighter 20: +31 AB = 20 (BAB) + 7 (DEX) + 1 (PBS) + 1 (MWK weapon) + 2 (GWF)

In both cases, the Fighter has a higher AB and an extra iterative attack. In the first example, this extra attack is only 2 points lower than the Cleric's final attack, at +22 for the Fighter, compared to a +24 for the Cleric. In the "no magic" example, the extra attack is higher than the Cleric's final attack: a +16 for the Fighter as opposed to a +14 for the Cleric.

With splat books, the Cleric outshines the Fighter, though in core only it seems that the fighter actually wins this. (Though I may be missing some information for the Cleric. )

I believe he is including magic and as such is including his casting divine power for full BAB.

[Eldariel]

For clarification, everything below is semi-unimportant tangent stuff. I think you got what you came for .

My cleric education
Outside of miracle and domains, is there any way for a cleric to replicate arcane spells? Or is that everything?

Greater spell penetration only applied to overcoming SR, not caster level in general. A bead of karma costs 20k gp, takes a standard action to use and lasts 10 minutes. Basically 1 fight if you get a buff round or a really long fight, or a round wasting trap if you use it when you don't. The ioun stone is the only way I see to get a permanent +1 caster level, and it's a whopping 30k.

With holy word it seems like only extremely weak creatures will be paralyzed. It seems others would immediately run away if smart. Dragons, giants and golems have too many HD to be affected at all. Even so it's still an effective control spell. Does he have other control spells like this?

For the level their direct damage seems kinda weak. Does the high AoE or anything else about them tend to compensate at all?

Spell resistance seems to have too short of a duration to be frequently useful.

A lot of the utility spells seem cool.

Holy Word-line is extremely effective against high-powered low HD opponents, such as Liches, Beholders, the like. However, they're most fearsome when coming from NPCs and when used in conjuction with Bead of Karma. They're definitely not a Solve Everything-tool, but CL-1 creatures are already pretty boned when it resolves, and if your CL is...oh, say 21, you could easily break a Balor or a Pit Fiend with it.

Clerics definitely aren't Warmages; I never understood peoples' fascination with Flamestrike. Level 5 glorified Fireball. Blah. A Cleric should rather just layeth the smackdown at that point. Clerics are much better at plain killing things or inconveniencing them; they don't have battlefield control like the Arcanists, but they are very proficient in SoLs/SoSs/debuffs though. They do have some battlefield manipulation spells like Obscuring Mist and Darkness, but nowhere near the level of Web or Solid Fog. Other areas they excel in are obviously undead (both, creating and destroying), summons (mostly just the Planar Ally-line), and all the defensive spells (Spell Immunity, Resist X, Protection from Mind Control [and alignment], Shield Other, Restorations, Heal, Remove Condition, Freedom of Movement, etc.). But offensively they mostly pack SoL-type effects.


And they're the natural buff machines; with access to Beads of Karma, you can wake up every morning and cast Greater Magic Weapon, Death Ward and Magic Vestment for all of everyone's equipment at a ridiculously high Caster Level that's unlike to ever get dispelled and grants superb bonuses. That's also why Clerics like DMM: Persist so much; they can cast all the buffs they want in the morning with Beads of Karma in effect then. That makes for nice Spell Resistance ~33 on level 15, for example (without DMM, Spell Resistance loses much of its allure unless you get an actual chance to prepare for an encounter).

As far as access to Wizard-spells goes, it's mostly a non-Core addition to them; with Anyspell-spells learnable from the Spell-domain or Initiate of Mystra-feat, you get to pick any Wizard-spells whatsoever of levels 2- and 5- for standard and Greater version of the spells. Then there're means to acquire extra domains and make domains spontaneous. And of course, there's the stupidity that is Shapechange, but it's pretty much worth ignoring as it's just as stupid as advertised. Mostly through those means; the domain slot on each level makes a huge difference as you can make a veritable battlefield control Cleric with just those slots, or borrow much of the Wizards' awesome spells in Time Stops, Moment of Prescience, Contingency, etc. Domains serve to greatly versatilize Cleric (who is already nothing if not versatile, being a healer, an offensive spellcaster and a melee warrior...oh, and Diplomat too if he feels like it).

[ericgrau]

^ Thanks Eldariel, I found that enlightening. Then pieces of it started falling out of my brain so I copy-pasted the whole thing into my notes. I think I need to look more into the SoL's/SoD's, but I'll probably put that off until later.

I believe he is including magic and as such is including his casting divine power for full BAB.

Say you get ~30% more hits as a rough estimate on divine power (e.g., 60% hits => 80%). That means it's break even in a 4 round combat. i.e., you could have just attacked for 4 rounds instead of 3 and had the same effect. i.e., you think you're equal to a full BAB class, but really you're right back where you started minus a spell slot. In a 9 round combat you effectively get a (8*130%)/9-100%=15.6% boost on average, which really is only as good as +2 AB not +4. So this really only fully works if you have a buffing round before combat, and it half works if you have a really long combat. And most combats are not that way.

The real qualm I'd have with his post is he's assuming that the fighter has a +5 weapon. He's better off getting damage enchantments instead. Since the cleric has damage enchantments and a +4 weapon (seriously, is he really gonna use a 20k gold 1/day item in the morning to get his GMW to +5??), that's where the cleric pulls ahead. However, a ridiculous amount of the cleric's AB comes from magic. +8, or +12 with divine power. If a fighter gets some of the same buffs b/c, well, ever friggin' party I've ever heard of has a caster, or if both characters lose all buffs somehow, that's how the fighter pulls ahead. GMW is an arcane spell too, plus if he doesn't have a party cleric for heroes' feast then an arcane caster for heroism will provide a higher bonus anyway.

Dang it, I said I wasn't gonna do this b/c it wasn't that important for the OP. Now look what happened.

[olentu]

^ Thanks Eldariel, I found that enlightening. Then pieces of it started falling out of my brain so I copy-pasted the whole thing into my notes. I think I need to look more into the SoL's/SoD's, but I'll probably put that off until later.



Say you get ~30% more hits as a rough estimate on divine power (e.g., 60% hits => 80%). That means it's break even in a 4 round combat. i.e., you could have just attacked for 4 rounds instead of 3 and had the same effect. i.e., you think you're equal to a full BAB class, but really you're right back where you started minus a spell slot. In a 9 round combat you effectively get a (8*130%)/9-100%=15.6% boost on average, which really is only as good as +2 AB not +4. So this really only fully works if you have a buffing round before combat, and it half works if you have a really long combat. And most combats are not that way.

The real qualm I'd have with his post is he's assuming that the fighter has a +5 weapon. He's better off getting damage enchantments instead. Since the cleric has damage enchantments and a +4 weapon (seriously, is he really gonna use a 20k gold 1/day item in the morning to get his GMW to +5??), that's where the cleric pulls ahead. However, a ridiculous amount of the cleric's AB comes from magic. +8, or +12 with divine power. If a fighter gets some of the same buffs b/c, well, ever friggin' party I've ever heard of has a caster, or if both characters lose all buffs somehow, that's how the fighter pulls ahead. GMW is an arcane spell too, plus if he doesn't have a party cleric for heroes' feast then an arcane caster for heroism will provide a higher bonus anyway.

Dang it, I said I wasn't gonna do this b/c it wasn't that important for the OP. Now look what happened.

I was only commenting on this line

Your Cleric's BAB is wrong. It should be a 15, for a total bonus of +34.

about BAB and why he used 16 as a level 16 cleric rather then 15 as a level 20 cleric.