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    Default [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    As outlined in the Evaluation Methodology thread, this thread is for discussing, editing and evaluation the Dreamer base class for Project C.U.T.E..

    Note: This class is considered a "core" C.U.T.E. class. Therefore, voting for inclusion is not needed; only review and editing.

    The Dreamer is meant to be a defensive caster as well as a healer, as well as a summoner. She uses her reality-altering powers and summoned critters to defend her friends, and her Happy Thoughts to heal them if they get injured.

    Remember kids: Do not compare the Dreamer to any core D20 class, as kids won't be using them until they grow up, and by then they'll have lost their CUTE powers. The point of this thread is to set a benchmark to compare all other CUTE classes to; not to balance it against existing D20 material.

    The Dreamer
    All healthy kids know the value of a healthy imagination. Imagining the world as it should be is what kids do best. However, some kids can't seem to work out the difference between the real world and their imaginings. These children go through life in a sort of daze, being quite pleasant to those stuck in the 'real world' but always seeming just a little off.
    Adventures: Dreamers go on adventures entirely because that's what they imagine they should do. The reasons in their imaginations might vary, but all dreamer adventurers are simply along for the ride because they think they're meant to be.
    Characteristics: Dreamers are so good at imagining things that they can sometimes bring these unrealities into being, if only for a short while. Dreamers can use these powers to aid their comrades in rather odd ways.
    Alignment: A dreamer can be of any alignment, although seldom are evil, per se. They may act as if they were evil, but most dreamers like this are actually neutral, simply playing along.
    Religion: Dreamers are mostly too caught up in their imaginations to revere any specific deity.
    Background: Dreamers, sadly, often have very troubled lives. Many dream in order to escape the reality of their life. Many, however, simply dream because they can, to the frustration of parents and teachers who try to get them to live in the real world every now and then.
    Races: All children dream. Dreamers are more likely to spring up in the cultured races than the savage ones, as savages who daydream all the time often get themselves killed early on.
    Other classes: Dreamers get along with anyone, up to and including the villain of the story. Many classes see dreamers as useful for their ability to warp reality, although quite often they get annoyed by their inability to come down to earth for any prolonged period of time.
    Role: Dreamers can take the role of healer, spellcaster, warrior, rogue, whatever takes their fancy at any particular time.

    Game Rule Information
    Abilities: A dreamer's most useful ability is her Wisdom score, as it modifies her Imagine checks. Dreamers can also benefit from a high Charisma score, especially when trying to convince others that what they imagine is actually real.
    Alignment: Any
    Hit die: d6

    Class skills
    The dreamer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Imagine (Wis), Play (Cha), Perform (Cha) and Use Magic Device (Cha).
    Skills points at first level: [4 + Int modifier] * 4
    Skill points at every other level: 4 + Int modifier

    Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Dreamers are proficient with the pencil, the ruler, the book and the skipping rope. Dreamers are not proficient with any type or armour or shields.
    Out Of It: Dreamers are in an almost constant daydreaming daze. While they can see the real world well enough, they take a -2 penalty of Search, Spot and Listen checks, but in return recieve a +2 bonus on Will saves and Imagine checks.
    Happy Thoughts: Good vibes can be a very potent thing when they come from a dreamer. Once per day per rank of Imagine a dreamer possesses, she may heal her allies of their wounds. Both the dreamer and her target must hold hands and take a full-round action concentrating on all things good and fun and fluffy. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity, although if either are attacked the dreamer must make a Concentration check as if casting a first level spell. At the end of the round, the dreamer makes an Imagine check against a DC of 10, healing her target of 1d6 points of damage if she succeeds. If she beats the DC by five or more, she heals another 1d6 points of damage for every five she beats the DC by.
    Alternatively, the dreamer may take a full-round action on her own to instead heal all allies within 30 ft. of 1 damage per dice of damage she would normally heal.
    At tenth level, the dreamer's healing dice increase to d8, and the damage she heals using the secondary use of this ability increases to 2 per dice she would normally heal.
    A Dreamer may not have more uses of Happy Thoughts per day than three more than her Dreamer level (4 uses maximum at level one, five at level two, and so on).
    No, No, That Went Wrong!: At second level, a dreamer may reattempt any saving throw, skill check, attack roll or damage roll once per day. She must declare that she is using this ability before the results of the action are announced, and must take this new roll, even if it's worse than the first one.
    At sixth level, and every fourth level thereafter (10th, 14th and 18th) the dreamer may use this ability an additional time per day.
    Imaginary Friend: At fourth level, a dreamer's imaginary friend becomes a little more real, although still invisible to everyone but the dreamer. This is similar to the Unseen Servant spell, with the dreamer's class level as the caster level. Unlike an ordinary Unseen Servant, however, the dreamer's imaginary friend is intelligent (Mental scores all equal to the dreamer's Charisma score -2) and can converse with the dreamer or any of her imagined constructs (see below). The dreamer can also see her imaginary friend perfectly, which often takes on a humanoid form. Unlike a regular Unseen Servant, an imaginary friend can move up to 30 ft. in a round.
    If an imaginary friend ceases to exist for any reason, a dreamer can call it back into being as a move-equivalent action. The imaginary friend "appears" adjacent to the dreamer when this happens.
    Imagination Made Flesh: At seventh level a dreamer can emulate a Summon Monster III or Summon Nature's Ally III spell, with a caster level equal to her class level, up to three times per day. The creatures summoned by this ability are only about 50% real. If a monster rolls a Will save to disbelieve (DC 13 + dreamer's Charisma modifier), they only take 50% damage from the summoned creatures. In addition, they are of the Construct type, not their original creature type. The dreamer's imaginary friend may order the creatures around just as the dreamer can.
    This ability gain one extra use per day at levels 10, 13, 16 and 19.
    At fourteenth level, the dreamer may instead choose to emulate the IV versions of the spells. In addition, the save DC increases by 1.
    It's Not Meant To Go That Way!: At twelfth level, a dreamer can choose to disbelieve a course of events once per day. If she makes a DC 25 Imagine check, she can reverse all the effects that transpired since her last turn. All spells and abilities are still used, but their effects are nullified. This ability can even return a dead ally back to life, providing they died after her last turn.
    At twentieth level, a dreamer can use this ability twice per day.
    Dream Avatar: At seventeenth level, a dreamer gains the ability to transform into a being of awesome power as a full-round action. This can be a superhero, an angel, or even a rather large stuffed toy. She becomes Large, gains a +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution, and gains either a +20 bonus on her base land speed or a fly speed of 30 with good maneuverability. The dreamer also gains a +4 competence bonus to Will saves and Imagine checks.
    While manifest as her Dream Avatar, a dreamer can choose to emulate Summon Monster V or Summon Nature's Ally V when using her Imagination Made Flesh ability. The DC to disbelieve increases by 1 again, and the summoned creatures become 70% real instead of 50%.
    This ability lasts a number of rounds equal to half her ranks in the Imagine skill. She can use this ability a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom modifier - 1 (minimum once per day).

    Saves: Good Will, bad Reflex and Fortitude
    BaB: 3/4 HD, as Cleric.
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    Okay, first order of business: I don't think allowing the Dreamer to gain new uses of Happy Thoughts by multiclassing and just taking ranks in Imagine is a good idea.

    Currently, a Dreamer 1/Storybook Hero 19 would have 24 uses of Happy Thoughts per day, if she maxed out her ranks in Imagine. This was a problem that plagued the bard in 3.0...
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    [*]Happy Thoughts is usable far too often. The Dreamer, as it stands, makes a better healer than the cleric at low levels.

    Try making it usable equal to one-half ranks in Imagine per day, instead of at the 1:1 ratio it currently stands at.

    Oh, and put in a proviso stating "Uses not to exceed levels in Dreamer +1".
    [*]It's Not Meant To Go That Way! is gamebreakingly powerful, especially at 12th level. Perhaps kicking it up to sixteen would be a better choice, or shortening the duration of negation. Perhaps even simply "resetting" things as they were before the ability at 12th, changing that to keeping expended at 16th, and then granting an extra use at 20th.

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    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    I forgot to put what the Dreamer is actually for... I'll put that into the first post.

    The Dreamer is meant to be the main healer. As there will be absolutely no clerics, I don't see why it's a problem that they're more powerful.

    Sorry about not making the purpose clear... it's better now, I hope.
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    Alright, then it's perfectly fine since you have no other real source of healing.

    I'm still concerned with the It's Not Meant To Go That Way! though.

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    I suppose just resetting things at twelfth level, wasting spell slots at sixteenth level and getting an extra use at twentieth wouldn't be too bad.

    But we should get more opinions before I go and edit things, naturally.

    I am, however, putting a rule in Happy Thoughts which states that the Dreamer cannot have more uses of Happy Thoughts per day than her Dreamer level + 3.

    A note: There is another class that can heal. But, considering he gains spells as a bard, if he chooses to heal he can't do that much else.

    This is assuming the Mama's Boy makes it into the Core CUTE, naturally.
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    Question: Is there a really strong reason, power or flavor-wise, to *ever* let "It's not Meant to Go that Way" keep abilities/slots expended? The fluff of the description sounds like it should just *undo* the previous round. That might significantly lower balance concerns, and to me it makes more fluff sense. And it's still a *really* useful ability; even if the dragon gets its breath weapon back, it has to roll for damage again, everyone gets to reattempt their saves, and the party can try totally separate tactics if the old ones failed.

    Another possibility, to keep the healing while still making a Mama's Boy/Girl (assuming we have it)'s healing powers useful: You only *state* that the healing is a full-round action for the dreamer. But the description kind of implies that *both* characters need to take a full-round action (holding hands) to make the ability work. If that were made explicit, the dreamer would be a potent healer while characters *recuperate* from battle (or saving seriously wounded, out-of-the-fight characters during battle), but would still give spell-based healing its place, in that it can be used while the recipient fights on.
    My latest homebrew: Gastrus

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    Well, I wanted that ability to make sure the round just didn't happen that way all over again and waste the use of the ability.

    But since all the other characters would know what just happened, they be able to change it anyway. Yeah, we can take away the expending spell slots and other stuff idea...

    And it was supposed to mean both the Dreamer and the person being healed had to take a full-round action, holding hands, for it to work. I will make that more explicit next time I go on an editing spree.
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    Oops...er...you actually do already state it explicitly. Don't know how I missed that; sorry.
    My latest homebrew: Gastrus

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    ...I did? Oh, so did.

    We may have to work out what happens if the Dreamer tries to heal someone who's already acted during that round, though.
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    I'd be inclined to just disallow it. Communicating is a free action, so with a bit of foresight, an injured character can declare they're going to cooperate with the dreamer to get healed *on their action*. If they or the dreamer have already had their turn when they realize they need healing, it has to wait for the next round.

    So: A dreamer's healing abilities would be powerful, and *usable* in combat, but only superior to a MB/MG's *between* combats. For serious heat-of-battle healing, you want divine/parental power.

    [edit:...and given that, I agree that DL+3 is better than DL+1 for max number of uses. The nice thing about DL+3, which is what I imagine you were thinking anyway, is that it still gives a single-classed dreamer incentive to max out Imagine.]
    My latest homebrew: Gastrus

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    BTW, here's a level-by-level table (SRD-style) of the Dreamer's abilities. I, at least, will find it useful to see how the dreamer grows by level, and it will probably be *very* useful later, when we balance other classes against the dreamer level-by-level.

    {table]
    [tr]
    [td]Level[/td]
    [td]BaB[/td]
    [td]Fort Save[/td]
    [td]Ref Save[/td]
    [td]Will Save[/td]
    [td]Special[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1st[/td]
    [td]+0[/td]
    [td]+0[/td]
    [td]+0[/td]
    [td]+2[/td]
    [td]Out of it, Happy thoughts[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2nd[/td]
    [td]+1[/td]
    [td]+0[/td]
    [td]+0[/td]
    [td]+3[/td]
    [td]No, No, That Went Wrong! 1x/day, Bonus Feat[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3rd[/td]
    [td]+2[/td]
    [td]+1[/td]
    [td]+1[/td]
    [td]+3[/td]
    [td] [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4th[/td]
    [td]+3[/td]
    [td]+1[/td]
    [td]+1[/td]
    [td]+4[/td]
    [td] [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5th[/td]
    [td]+3[/td]
    [td]+1[/td]
    [td]+1[/td]
    [td]+4[/td]
    [td]Bonus Feat[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6th[/td]
    [td]+4[/td]
    [td]+2[/td]
    [td]+2[/td]
    [td]+5[/td]
    [td]No, No, That Went Wrong! 2x/day[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7th[/td]
    [td]+5[/td]
    [td]+2[/td]
    [td]+2[/td]
    [td]+5[/td]
    [td] [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8th[/td]
    [td]+6/+1[/td]
    [td]+2[/td]
    [td]+2[/td]
    [td]+6[/td]
    [td]Bonus Feat[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9th[/td]
    [td]+6/+1[/td]
    [td]+3[/td]
    [td]+3[/td]
    [td]+6[/td]
    [td] [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10th[/td]
    [td]+7/+2[/td]
    [td]+3[/td]
    [td]+3[/td]
    [td]+7[/td]
    [td]Even happier thoughts; No, No, That Went Wrong! 3x/day[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11th[/td]
    [td]+8/+3[/td]
    [td]+3[/td]
    [td]+3[/td]
    [td]+7[/td]
    [td]Bonus Feat[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12th[/td]
    [td]+9/+4[/td]
    [td]+4[/td]
    [td]+4[/td]
    [td]+8[/td]
    [td]It's Not Meant To Go That Way! 1x/day[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13th[/td]
    [td]+9/+4[/td]
    [td]+4[/td]
    [td]+4[/td]
    [td]+8[/td]
    [td] [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14th[/td]
    [td]+10/+5[/td]
    [td]+4[/td]
    [td]+4[/td]
    [td]+9[/td]
    [td]No, No, That Went Wrong! 4x/day; Bonus Feat[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15th[/td]
    [td]+11/+6/+1[/td]
    [td]+5[/td]
    [td]+5[/td]
    [td]+9[/td]
    [td] [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16th[/td]
    [td]+12/+7/+2[/td]
    [td]+5[/td]
    [td]+5[/td]
    [td]+10[/td]
    [td] [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17th[/td]
    [td]+12/+7/+2[/td]
    [td]+5[/td]
    [td]+5[/td]
    [td]+10[/td]
    [td]Bonus Feat[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18th[/td]
    [td]+13/+8/+3[/td]
    [td]+6[/td]
    [td]+6[/td]
    [td]+11[/td]
    [td]No, No, That Went Wrong! 5x/day[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19th[/td]
    [td]+14/+9/+4[/td]
    [td]+6[/td]
    [td]+6[/td]
    [td]+11[/td]
    [td] [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20th[/td]
    [td]+15/+10/+5[/td]
    [td]+6[/td]
    [td]+6[/td]
    [td]+12[/td]
    [td]It's Not Meant To Go That Way! 2x/day, Bonus Feat[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]
    My latest homebrew: Gastrus

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    I think it would be CUTE (TM) if the progression of Happy Thoughts was called Even Happier Thoughts. ;D
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    :) Done.

    I also added a note at the bottom about something this table brings up. Not that it's a *terrible* thing, I just think it's nice if characters see something new beyond HP/skills each level (better BaB, better saves, or some new special ability).
    My latest homebrew: Gastrus

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    Getting new skills at that level, while, granted, not a whole new special ability, actually gives the Dreamer one more use of Happy Thoughts if they put a rank in Imagine that level.
    Project CUTE:&&http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=homebrew;action=display;num=11543005 05

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    Just a realization during my insomnia. The L17 ability "Dream Avatar" makes you Large size. Children, usually being under four feet, are considered Small (or at least I always have), which would mean that you'd have to do a variety of things to get them to Large. I believe it's Str +4, Dex -4, -2 to AB, -2 to AC, and Weight x16.

    Also, it should enumerate that you take up 10' and have a reach of 10', as well as have a provision for what happens if you don't have enough space to reach full Large size. Otherwise, we might have Dreamers crushing themselves in their playhouses. I'll refer you to the psionic power Expansion for this.

    Finally, I think it'd be kinda neat if the Dreamer's Imaginary Friend could manifest during this as well. Not gaining the same benefits of course, but perhaps acting as a Shadow or Allip or somesuch incorporeal creature does.

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    HPoB: You're right, of course. And actually, this only affects two levels, because I'd missed the dream avatar ability at L.17. So it's not much of a problem--just two levels out of 20 that are slightly less "cool" than the rest.

    Fax: Definitely right about the avatar size. The imaginary friend is an interesting idea too. There are already a couple of (non-reviewed, so not definitely in) ways to improve an imaginary friend: A 10-level PrC that merges the friend with a stuffed animal of increasing powers and bond, for good characters, and a feat that basically turns the imaginary friend into an evil, intelligent invisible stalker, for non-good characters.

    I don't want to get into a vote on those now, since that would be putting the cart before the horse, but it might at least be worth discussing whether, *in general*, a combat-worthy imaginary friend should be a class feature of the dreamer or a customization option. (If the latter, we can figure out the specifics of the customization option when we start reviewing customization mechanics.) Or both, I suppose, but then we'd have to be careful about interaction.
    My latest homebrew: Gastrus

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    If all of the children are about the same size, then wouldn't they all just count as medium? It would be a lot simpler and solve the problem of the Dream Avatar increasing the Dreamer two size categories (unless that's what was intended).
    Project CUTE:&&http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=homebrew;action=display;num=11543005 05

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    As far as I'm aware, parents and other adults do exist (and are even deities in some regards). They are medium creatures.

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    Yeah, I'm down on changing the interpretation of sizes from standard D&D. *So* much depends on them. Far easier to specify that CUTE PCs, as children, are one size category smaller than the usual for their race (that is, in a campaign with only human PCs, size S; halfling or gnomish children, if allowed, would be size T). I'm pretty sure, for example, that all the monsters designed for CUTE so far (not to mention any monster a CUTE DM might want to borrow from a non-CUTE source) are using the standard size categories.

    So, if we don't want a 2-category size increase via "dream avatar," I'd vote for changing Large to Medium (about right for a superhero, I'd say, and certainly compatible with "large stuffed animal" or "angel"). Or better yet, change it to "increases one size category".

    If the idea *was* a 2-category increase, it'd probably still be better to say that explicitly ("increases 2 size categories"). Should probably also keep it from stacking with other size-increasing effects, unless we explicitly want it to (I'd suggest not).

    Expansion (or the boosted version that gives you 2 categories) seems like a good template. Effects as per that power, plus...er...some additional bonuses. Maybe all the listed ones, even when they stack? So, Con +4, +4 competence bonus to Will saves and Imagine checks, Str +4 *in addition* to any provided by the size increase, and either a fly speed of 30 (good) (plus any land speed increase gained from the size increase) *or* a +20 *additional* land speed bonus (beyond any gained from the size increase).

    Too powerful? I don't think so--it's a 17th-level power only usable a few times per day; it should be a lot better than a standard Expansion. But just an idea.

    The alternative would be to drop the bonuses/options that duplicate size increase effects, or to make them overlap. But stacking sounds reasonable to me.
    My latest homebrew: Gastrus

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    The ability was intended to increase the Dreamer by two size categories (generally, angelic beings in D&D are Large sized, anyway). I didn't really think about all the bonuses and penalties size increases gives you; incorporating them into the ability would probably be a good idea, yes.

    So, that would be a +8 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Consitution, a -4 penalty to Dexterity, a -2 penalty on AC (or, to put it another way, a -1 size penalty to AC instead of the usual +1 size bonus to AC kids get) and a +4 bonus to Will saves and Imagine checks. Right, that works...

    Makes it a bit more powerful, too, as befits a seventeenth-level ability.

    Maybe it could be a +4 enhancement bonus to both Strength and Consitution, and a +4 size bonus to Strength on top of that?
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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    That sounds right. The only reason I'd be inclined to make it +2 size categories, rather than "large size", is to keep it from being even *more* powerful for Tiny PCs such as halfling kids (in campaign worlds that allow them; I'm *assuming* that, while "human only" is certainly a reasonable campaign option, it won't be *required* by core CUTE)...

    ...and even if we don't allow Tiny PCs, there's the issue of *NPC* Dreamers. I could easily imagine a DM, even one who avoids monstrous PCs, wanting to run, say, a goblin child (T) or a hill giant child (M) as a Dreamer (after all, surely the imagination is full of goblins and giants, even if the "real world" isn't)...and I assume they should all get similar bonuses out of that ability. That would require that the goblin end up M, and the hill giant end up H (which sound like the right sort of dreams for little goblins and "little" hill giants to have, respectively).
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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    Let me first say that I have long thought the Dreamer is a great base class, and the comments made so far only improve it.

    I think my only suggestion that hasn't been mentioned either here or in the original CUTE thread has to do with the Dreamer's weapon and armor proficiency list. As you have it now, the Dreamer is proficient with a few weapons, none of which is that great (save perhaps the skipping rope) and absolutely no armor. At the same time, however, the Dreamer gets moderate BAB and d6 HD which, while pretty low, can net better HP than a wizard or sorcerer. Plus, you have the Dream Avatar ability which tries (and largely succeeds) to make the Dreamer a combat monster. On top of that, the Dreamer can heal, summon, mess with what just happened in the combat, or direct his/her imaginary friend. To me, it seems like the Dreamer gets the short end of the stick when it comes to options in combat (though this is ameliorated slightly by UMD and feat selection). I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to give the Dreamer proficiency with light armor and perhaps one or two new weapons (slingshot and stick sword come immediately to mind as good additions). These changes would make that Dream Avatar ability a lot tastier, since I could actually wade into combat for a round or two, deal some decent damage, and perhaps survive to tell the tale. I think that these additions would also give the Dreamer a few more options for what to do with his/her rounds in combat. I also think that the weapon/armor lists need serious work, but that's a whole other issue that will be dealt with (I'm sure) in the future.

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    You know, I'm going to have to agree with Mephi on this one: despite Dream Avatar's utility compared to, say, Transformation, he does have a point.

    Slingshot does sound like a good idea, and I have just spontaneously acquired the idea to do a Slingshot Master class. Perhaps I'll draw it up while I'm in Reno these next two days.

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    Now that I get a chance to really look at the Dreamer, it looks so flexible `tis melting.Tm
    it can Heal like a demon(Oxymoron), summon like a beast(Inverse example), buff itself to phenomenal proportions(word choice) and cn pull off a feat that typically requires a prestige class or something. (Fatespinners do that, right? too lazy). it dosent seem to have a unifying crunchy theme. Flavor wise, is as solid as a mountain, and Balanced or not, it seems kind of... Skewed... to me.

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    The crunchy theme is thus: Dreamer's manipulate the Imaginal Plane directly, without those silly parental rules or bedtime stories. ;)

    (They're kinda similar to the bard, with many different powers stemming from one universal source. In this case, it's their imagination, instead of the bard's music.)

    There we go.
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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    I was thinking about that question last night, and here's how those thoughts ran:

    The *basic* explanation was Yuki's. Dreamers have a deep, intuitive connection to the imagination--as opposed to other classes, who get there by various techniques. To go into more detail, it seems like *almost* everything about the dreamer can be summed up under one of two headings:

    Story Revision
    Because dreamers see the world as they want it to be, rather than as it is, they can make certain changes to the world's "storyline," making it (partially) as if events that don't fall within their personal stories never really happened. "No, no, that went wrong!" and "It's not meant to go that way!" are obvious cases of this, but even "Happy Thoughts" can be considered in this light: You can think of it as the dreamer actually *undoing* injuries that aren't part of the way he/she sees the plot.

    Imaginary Companions
    Dreamers need something to *populate* their active fantasy life with. Because of this, they can draw creatures from pure imagination. This counts the "Imaginary Friend" and "Imagination Made Flesh" features, and *arguably* the "Dream Avatar" feature as well. (Under the idea that what they're really doing is creating a creature that *merges* with them, in the style of The Giant's Champion class.)

    That said, I think that, while Mephibosheth may be right that they should have somewhat better melee choices, I think it's important that they not be made *too* valuable as melee fighters in general. It really doesn't go well with their concept. In particular, it seems *really* weird to me to have them going around, by default, wearing armor. I'm wondering if instead, they could get a more...*thematic* ability to use during combat.

    THe exception is the Dream Avatar. Obviously, a dreamer in Avatar form should be a combat monster. Maybe give it some deflection AC and the ability to do unarmed damage, rather than generally buffing up the Dreamer?

    If you *do* want the Dreamer to more regularly wade into combat, I suggest making them do it the dreamer way. Here's one option I can think of:

    Rather than having the Dream Avatar ability come as all-or-nothing at level 17, give it to them much earlier, in a much weaker version, and have it scale. Such as:

    At level 5, the dreamer can become a dream avatar. THe dream avatar gets no size increase, but gets a +2 to strength, +2 to con, and a +2 to will and imagine checks. The dream avatar automatically has the feat Improved Unarmed Strike, and can do 1d8 base damage with an unarmed blow. They gain a deflection bonus of +3 to AC, and DR 1/-.

    At level 11, the dreamer's dream avatar gets a +1 to size, and an enhancement bonus of +3 to strength, +3 to con, and a +3 to will and imagine checks, as well as a +10 bonus on base land speed. The avatar's unarmed strike does 1d10 base damage and is considered magic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. They gain a deflection bonus of +6 to AC, and DR 3/-.

    At level 17, the dreamer's dream avatar gets the full current list of abilities: +2 to size, enh. bonus of +4 to strength, +4 to con, +4 to will and imagine checks, as well as either a +20 bonus to base land speed or a fly speed of 30 (good), plus the improved Imagination Made Flesh. The avatar's unarmed strike does 2d8 base damage, and is considered both magic and adamantine for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. They gain a deflection bonus of +9 to AC, and DR 5/-.

    There we go. A few times a day, a dreamer (of level 5+) gets to be a combat monster--without normally being someone you'd throw into a fight.

    Thoughts?
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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    I like the progression. Would the number of uses per day scale just according to the class, or would it be modified by an ability score?

    Something that caught my eye when you mentioned it was the fly speed. Is there any way that could be integrated earlier to scale? Perhaps with some penalties involved? It isn't necessary or anything, but I picture a lot of Dreamers sitting in class, or laying on a hill, watching birds fly. In fact, that is one of the first things that came to mind when I first read about the class. So when you mentioned the fly speed, I realized that one of the first things I picture a standard Dreamer doing with their imagination is flying like a bird.

    That's just me though. I don't know how you'd represent it very eloquently in mechanics, it'd probably either be overpowered or pointless if it was implimented. Just a thought.

    Ooh. Idea. Perhaps it could be sort of like a Clairvoyance/Clairaudience ability, or that scrying-eye spell whatever it was called. Instead of actually giving them a fly speed, maybe they could just kind of project their awareness in a way that would allow them to float up there with their feathered friends. Sounds rather Dreamer-y, too.

    Bird's-Eye View Any Dreamer worth his salt has spent many-a school-day staring out the window, watching hawks and eagles lazily circle in the sky. If only they, too, could look down on their tiny city from a mile up, free from the worries of life on the ground. At 2nd level, the Dreamer learns the ability to push their awareness out of their bodies, giving it form and allowing it to travel on it's own. This awareness functions as a Clairvoyance/Clairaudience spell, allowing the Dreamer to see and hear as if he was currently at that spot. A Dreamer's awareness may travel up to one mile away from the Dreamer before reaching it's limit. However, the awareness only functions if it is in the Dreamer's line of sight. It may move out of the line of sight normally, but it fails to transmit any sort of sensory information whatsoever to the Dreamer until it once again enters the Dreamer's line of sight. Therefore, the main purpose of this ability is merely to provide a different perspective, rather than to spy on a hidden or secret location.

    A Dreamer may project his awareness a number of times per day equal to his Dreamer level plus his wisdom bonus. This also calculates the number of minutes each use of the awareness lasts. During the process, the Dreamer is only vaguely aware of his surroundings. Should he be forced back into his own awareness for any reason, such as a teacher's ruler being smacked onto his desk, he must make a DC 15 concentration check to avoid wasting the rest of the duration, and even then only if he returns to the ability within one round. In regards to it's physical makeup, the awareness acts similar to light: it cannot pass throughout solid objects, except those that are transparent such as glass or water. The awareness is weightless, and is invisible to everything short of a True Seeing spell. The awareness can travel any direction, even straight up, so long as it's path is not blocked by solid material.

    Hmm... Just a *little* wordy for a single ability... But you get the idea. Thoughts?
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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    Nothing wrong with wordy.

    I do not, however, like the progression on Dream Avatar. To me, it seems that the class is based around imagining things, not stepping on everyone. We're not trying to make CUTE-CoDzilla (are we?).

    The Dream Avatar should be a side-effect, if anything, of their increasing Imagineering prowess. That being said, the "wordy" ability suits me fine and should probably go into the progression at, say, level 2, or the "empty" level closest to it.

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    Default Re: [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]

    I like Bird's-eye view too. It doesn't *obviously* fit in with the other abilities in terms of "crunchy theme," but maybe that's OK.

    I'm certainly not wedded to the avatar, even in its original form (much less the progression). It was just an attempt to, as Mephibosheth described it, keep the dreamer from getting "the short end of the stick when it comes to options in combat."

    If that's *not* an issue, or if I misunderstood the issue, we can certainly drop the Avatar progression (and maybe even ask whether the Avatar is necessary at all). I'd just prefer an avatar progression to, say, putting the Dreamer in armor or making his/her *ordinary* form more of a front-line combatant.
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