[4e] Eladrin Paladin

[skywalker]

Hey guys, the other DM in my group has an Eladrin Paladin coming up as an NPC in his campaign. The way NPCs work in our group, one of the players handles 2 PCs, altho obviously, the "NPC" isn't "theirs," and actions outside of combat and motivations are handled by the DM. He wants me to build her since I'm probably going to be the one playing her.

What that explanation means is, I need help building an Eladrin Paladin, and I'm locked into the race. The race choice just sends my optimization centered brain into meltdown, and I have no idea where to go from there.

What say you playground? I'm at a loss even about assigning stats!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Oy, I can see why you'd be frustrated. Eladrin are really not the greatest paladins. It's times like this that make me glad that you can't really make a bad character in 4e. I don't have any specific suggestions really, but I've found this thread invaluable for paladin building.

The Paladin's Handbook: Facestabbing in the name of thy God

While Litigation's guide will pretty much shoot eladrin down at the outset, with the advice in this guide, I think even an eladrin paladin can be manageable, even kick-ass. I too have developed an interest in making an eladrin paladin. Would it be too much trouble to let me know how it goes?

[Townopolis]

Uh...

Put your starting 8 in Int. Go for a Str build, completely forgetting Cha (leave it at 10).

I'd go for:
16 Str
12 Con
12 Dex (14, gets you a decent reflex)
8 int (10)
16 Wis
10 Cha

Grab a greatsword and build her to be an avenging paladin. Focus on ruining your opponents' ability to fight and powers that let you heal (but completely avoid any Cha-based powers, obviously). Your divine challenge will be wimpy, but that's why you focus on being a major threat on your own turns and healing. 3x LoH/day won't hurt either.

[Edit]I don't have my books with me, but IIRC paladins don't have athletics on their list. If this is true, use Eladrin skill training to take it. It can be a godsend if anything grabs you.

[Asbestos]

Uh...

Put your starting 8 in Int. Go for a Str build, completely forgetting Cha (leave it at 10).

I'd go for:
16 Str
12 Con
12 Dex (14, gets you a decent reflex)
8 int (10)
16 Wis
10 Cha

Grab a greatsword and build her to be an avenging paladin. Focus on ruining your opponents' ability to fight and powers that let you heal (but completely avoid any Cha-based powers, obviously). Your divine challenge will be wimpy, but that's why you focus on being a major threat on your own turns and healing. 3x LoH/day won't hurt either.

[Edit]I don't have my books with me, but IIRC paladins don't have athletics on their list. If this is true, use Eladrin skill training to take it. It can be a godsend if anything grabs you.

And hope you don't get to that 'there are no Str based powers' level that paladins have.

[RTGoodman]

Lordsmoothe's stat array looks pretty good to me. I mean, with that 14 Dex to start with, once you get your +1 to all stats at 11th level you qualify for Heavy Blade Opportunity, which you can combine with valiant strike (+1 atk per adjacent enemy) for some pretty decent OAs. With one of your level up points put into Dex, you can qualify for Heavy Blade Mastery at Epic tier, letting you crit on 19-20.

EDIT:

And hope you don't get to that 'there are no Str based powers' level that paladins have.

Yeah, but you could always multiclass to power-swap those away for the most part. Fighter would be the obvious choice, but I guess Cleric could work, too.

[skywalker]

Ooh, guys, I'm sorry, but I'm also restricted to sword-n-board (partially because another player already has a "great weapon fighter," partially because the miniature he wants to use for her has a shield... ). Is there any way I could amend my request for assistance to include that restriction? Thanks for the help so far, I did look at litigation's guide, unfortunately, all it really convinced me of was that there's no way she can be really good...

Some more specific info: We will only have this character in the party for a couple levels (3-4 at most) unless someone gets really attached to her (which is unlikely, seeing as how she won't probably do too well...).

[Nightson]

Warlord is also a pretty good multiclass choice for a str based paladin.

[Tengu_temp]

Take advantage of the only thing that gives Eladrin paladins a boost and take Eladrin Soldier - at lower levels it gives a better boost to your overall damage output than Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). Since you want to go with sword and board, the best way to go is concentrate on charisma:
Str 13
Con 14
Dex 10+2
Int 8+2
Wis 14
Cha 16

You can swap strength and constitution around. Since this character probably won't reach paragon levels, and surely not epic ones, no need to bother with higher dexterity.

[Belobog]

Greatsword isn't the, uh...greatest. If you're restricted to one-handed weapons, I would suggest a scimitar (1d8 damage, +2 prof, high-crit ability), a longsword (1d8 damage, +3 prof), or a bastard sword (1d10 damage, +3 prof, needs feat for proficiency). Eladrin Soldier (and the Blade Opportunist line, maybe?) would probably help, too.

Also, the nod to Multiclassing is most likely a good suggestion. Even if she never pops up again, picking up some Cleric or Warlord powers is always nice.

If she sticks around, invest in a good holy symbol. A fair number of Paladin CHA powers are Implement powers.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Take advantage of the only thing that gives Eladrin paladins a boost and take Eladrin Soldier - at lower levels it gives a better boost to your overall damage output than Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). Since you want to go with sword and board, the best way to go is concentrate on charisma:
Str 13
Con 14
Dex 10+2
Int 8+2
Wis 14
Cha 16

You can swap strength and constitution around. Since this character probably won't reach paragon levels, and surely not epic ones, no need to bother with higher dexterity.

Well, you'll need DEX 13 if you want Blade Opportunist, which you may, if you are going act like an area-defender. I'd slip a point from CON to raise your DEX up; with Bolstering Strike, you can afford the CON drop.

Now, I would build this up as a Lock Paladin, if you have a spare Defender wandering around.

Spoiler

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The idea behind the Lock Paladin is to latch onto the enemy Controller or Artillery and keep them from harassing your allies. As an Eladrin, you can make good use of your Teleport 5 to snap your Challenge on the boss in the rear without having to weave your way through mooks.

Assuming this will be a strictly Heroic game, I'd use the following 22 point buy:
STR 10
DEX 8+2
CON 13
INT 11+2
WIS 16
CHA 16

Here's why:

Spoiler

Show

WIS is huge for a Paladin. It controls for Lay on Hands - which is probably the only way you'll get through your 11 Surges per Day - and is a prominent secondary stat for many attacks. It's better for a STR Paladin, but it's still good if you plan to stay stuck in. Plus, you can easily MC Cleric for some excellent Utilities and fine Controller-y powers.

CON is nice, but with 10+CON mod Surges per day, you can afford to walk around with a +1 instead of a +2.

INT 13 gives you access to Jack of All Trades (+2 to all untrained skills!); this is a better trade off than using that +1 in DEX for an initiative boost. Take Improved Initiative and you're far better off.

STR and DEX are only important if you care about Blade Opportunist. You don't - just having your Mark on your opponent is all you need. So ditch 'em, and use the points elsewhere. And you can still carry 100 lbs of gear without penalty, so why bother?

CHA 16 because CHA 18 is just too darn expensive, and the WIS 16 does a lot more work than an extra +1 on CHA.

As a Sword & Board, you shouldn't worry too much damage anyhow; as a Lock, you worry pretty much not at all. Eladrin Soldier is nice, but take Improved Initiative at Level 1 instead. It'll let you get the jump on the boss and stop him before he starts doing annoying stuff.

Power-wise, you'll take Bolstering Strike (use it whenever you don't have Temp HP) and Enfeebling Strike (use it when you have Temp HP) for at-wills. Fearsome Smite makes for a fine 1st level Encounter, and Radiant Delirium is your Daily.

Walk around in Full Plate, a Heavy Shield, and a Longsword and you're set.

That's how I'd run it, anyhow. Lock Paladins maximize the annoying-factor and, as an NPC, your main character is going to be doing all the awesome stuff anyhow.

[TheOOB]

Longsword or bastard sword is the way to go(well, longsword until you can afford the feat for bastard sword).

Eladrin make good members of any class, even if their stat bonuses are not the greatest. The bonus to dex is useful for a good reflex defense and allows you to get the heavy blade feats with minimum stat placement in dex, and the bonus to int allows you to put an 8 in the stat without having any penalties.

The eladrin racials are likewise useful, everyone can benefit from an extra skill and bonus to will defense, and the teleport ability is downright amazing for melee fighters who often need to be in the exact right position at the exact right time, doubly so with all your leader-ish abilities that require you to be close to your allies.

As mentioned above, since your heavy blade feats are so well seeded, going strength is most likely your best bet, but a CHA paladin can work. I'd suggest putting a 16 in your main stat, a 14 in your minor one, and a 13-14 in wisdom(then filling out the rest of the stats as needed).

Otherwise just build the paladin like any other, your accuracy and damage will be a little less then a race with a stat bonus to str or cha, but if you play your cards right you can make up for it with your added mobility, just make sure to ask the DM to make some battle maps where that ability would be useful.

[Tengu_temp]

Well, you'll need DEX 13 if you want Blade Opportunist, which you may, if you are going act like an area-defender. I'd slip a point from CON to raise your DEX up; with Bolstering Strike, you can afford the CON drop.

While this is true, Blade Opportunity is a paragon feat, and judging from what the OP already said it seems the campaign won't go that far. Still a fair trade, though.

Longsword or bastard sword is the way to go(well, longsword until you can afford the feat for bastard sword).

Bastard sword is better than longsword + Eladrin Soldier only for attacks that deal 3[w] and more. I'd say that Eladrin Soldier is better for heroic tier.

[Oracle_Hunter]

While this is true, Blade Opportunity is a paragon feat, and judging from what the OP already said it seems the campaign won't go that far. Still a fair trade, though.

No no, Blade Opportunist. Gives +2 to hit with OAs when using Light or Heavy Blades. Requires 13 STR and 13 DEX. Very helpful for CHA Paladins when making OAs.

[skywalker]

Take advantage of the only thing that gives Eladrin paladins a boost and take Eladrin Soldier - at lower levels it gives a better boost to your overall damage output than Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). Since you want to go with sword and board, the best way to go is concentrate on charisma:
Str 13
Con 14
Dex 10+2
Int 8+2
Wis 14
Cha 16

You can swap strength and constitution around. Since this character probably won't reach paragon levels, and surely not epic ones, no need to bother with higher dexterity.

What I like about this plan: It acts like I expect a paladin to act, has good hit points, and a decent WIS. I think WIS of at least 14 is essential because so many secondary effects are WIS based and STR isn't going to make it.

What I don't like about this build: I'm not sure it will be useful with the opportunity attacks it creates, and it doesn't really have a "trick," just is. Not that that's bad, I just like to show up to the table with something cool. Not necessarily cheesy or broken, but something that utilizes the rules in a clever way. Which leads me to this:

Now, I would build this up as a Lock Paladin, if you have a spare Defender wandering around.

Spoiler

Show

The idea behind the Lock Paladin is to latch onto the enemy Controller or Artillery and keep them from harassing your allies. As an Eladrin, you can make good use of your Teleport 5 to snap your Challenge on the boss in the rear without having to weave your way through mooks.

Assuming this will be a strictly Heroic game, I'd use the following 22 point buy:
STR 10
DEX 8+2
CON 13
INT 11+2
WIS 16
CHA 16

Here's why:

Spoiler

Show

WIS is huge for a Paladin. It controls for Lay on Hands - which is probably the only way you'll get through your 11 Surges per Day - and is a prominent secondary stat for many attacks. It's better for a STR Paladin, but it's still good if you plan to stay stuck in. Plus, you can easily MC Cleric for some excellent Utilities and fine Controller-y powers.

CON is nice, but with 10+CON mod Surges per day, you can afford to walk around with a +1 instead of a +2.

INT 13 gives you access to Jack of All Trades (+2 to all untrained skills!); this is a better trade off than using that +1 in DEX for an initiative boost. Take Improved Initiative and you're far better off.

STR and DEX are only important if you care about Blade Opportunist. You don't - just having your Mark on your opponent is all you need. So ditch 'em, and use the points elsewhere. And you can still carry 100 lbs of gear without penalty, so why bother?

CHA 16 because CHA 18 is just too darn expensive, and the WIS 16 does a lot more work than an extra +1 on CHA.

As a Sword & Board, you shouldn't worry too much damage anyhow; as a Lock, you worry pretty much not at all. Eladrin Soldier is nice, but take Improved Initiative at Level 1 instead. It'll let you get the jump on the boss and stop him before he starts doing annoying stuff.

Power-wise, you'll take Bolstering Strike (use it whenever you don't have Temp HP) and Enfeebling Strike (use it when you have Temp HP) for at-wills. Fearsome Smite makes for a fine 1st level Encounter, and Radiant Delirium is your Daily.

Walk around in Full Plate, a Heavy Shield, and a Longsword and you're set.

That's how I'd run it, anyhow. Lock Paladins maximize the annoying-factor and, as an NPC, your main character is going to be doing all the awesome stuff anyhow.

Things I like about this build: It does have a trick, plays around with an advantage 4e created for the PCs. It's a unique take on the paladin, and the only paladin that's not a "paladunce" that I've ever seen (jack of all trades?! FTW!). It's a really good "5th man," especially considering we've got another defender (greatsword fighter) and a half-defender (my inspiring warlord) already in the party.

Things I don't like about it: While I find the concept intriguing, I'm not certain of the Lock's ability to stand up to punishment. Yes, it has a 21 AC. Unfortunately, the rest of it's defenses are mediocre (which I think may be a recurring problem because of the Eladrin's suck when it comes to being a paladin), and the types of monsters/enemies that are prime candidates for "Lock-down" (haha, I made a funny) tend to attack defenses other than AC. 39 HP (this is a level 2 character) is a good amount, but I'm not sure it's going to sustain a character involved in taking controller/artillery/lurker damage, especially in a game where the other option at defender is mediocre (a githyanki two-handed fighter of an unsure constitution).

One thing I do like about the "Lock" build is that it could be fluffed as some bizarre Eladrin method of defending.

What do you guys think of this?

EDIT (I got big time ninja'd): TheOOB seems to be walking down Tengu's path, but in a more detailed fashion. We have a split here between the STR church and the CHA church. My fear with going "straladin" is that attacks based off of strength almost exclusively target AC, which (almost?) always the highest defense. I have an instinct (with those not as good attack and damage rolls) to pick on the lower defenses, which is what the "chaladin" tends to do. Also, I'm locked into a 1-hander, who, by definition, won't be doing stellar damage. I think (feel free to disagree, I know very little of paladins) that the chaladin tends to get better secondary effects besides the damage.

One thing to consider about the OA feats: OA's hardly ever come up. This DM plays the "monsters know when they're marked, or when they would grant OAs" straight, so a marked monster almost never attacks someone other than the marker, and I don't think I've ever taken an OA in his games. Food for thought.

I'll probably get ninja'd again with this edit

[Oracle_Hunter]

Things I don't like about it: While I find the concept intriguing, I'm not certain of the Lock's ability to stand up to punishment. Yes, it has a 21 AC. Unfortunately, the rest of it's defenses are mediocre (which I think may be a recurring problem because of the Eladrin's suck when it comes to being a paladin), and the types of monsters/enemies that are prime candidates for "Lock-down" (haha, I made a funny) tend to attack defenses other than AC. 39 HP (this is a level 2 character) is a good amount, but I'm not sure it's going to sustain a character involved in taking controller/artillery/lurker damage, especially in a game where the other option at defender is mediocre (a githyanki two-handed fighter of an unsure constitution).

Hrm. Yes, well, if you don't have faith in your other Defender, the Lock Paladin is tough. But don't despair for defenses!

Spoiler

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First of all, a Lock Paladin opens a second front in combat. The Boss can either call down everyone on the Paladin or try and disable the Locker so that he can get back to helping his minions kick butt. Even for high-tactics DMs, this is a tough decision: on one hand the artillery/controller cannot stand up to the punishment a Defender (even a weak one) can dish out without a Brute or a Soldier to mediate. On the other hand, concentrating on the Locker lets the Strikers move into flanking and the Controller/Leader to set up shop; even if it only takes one round to dislodge the Locker, that's a round where the majority of the party gets a free shot at the monsters.

Secondly, your prey isn't actually very good at killing you. Controllers & Artillery generally have ranged attacks or debuffing attacks. Using ranged attacks invites OAs (and even with a crappy OA to-hit, it's amazing how often you get lucky), and debuffing attacks don't actually hinder the Locker from doing his job. Heck, invest in a store of daggers or javelins, and you can even keep the Boss busy when he immobilizes you!

Thirdly, the Eladrin's defenses aren't quite that bad. Yes, the stats are very focused, but between the universal +1, the Eladrin's +1 Will, and the Heavy Shield's +2 Reflex, you're not much worse off than a Fighter. Sure, your Fort is shot - but that's true of all CHA paladins. And don't underestimate Bolstering Strike! Getting 3 spare HP whenever you want does a lot to take the edge off of attacks to the NADs. That, combined with plentiful Surges and easy Surge Tripping (3/day as a minor action, 1/EN using Second Wind, plus whatever your Leader throws at you) makes Paladins very hard to kill.

But you're starting at LV 2, are you? Do you get to choose magic items? If so, invest in a good Neck Slot instead of a Holy Symbol for now, and you'll be able to cushion your NADs adequately.

EDIT:
No OAs? Well, that makes your life easier! Now your lack of OA ability doesn't matter at all

I swear, some DMs outsmart themselves like that. Sometimes it is very worth it to take a Combat Challenge (or a Pala-Shock) in order to lay out the enemy wizard or leader. And risking OAs from the squishes for flanking purposes? Such a good idea!

Just don't do it with minions. I'll never live down my cutter who thought the STR 10 Tiefling Warlock could never hit him.

Moar Edit:
Numbers...

Spoiler

Show

Lockhart the LV 2 Eladrin Paladin is running around in Full Plate and a Heavy Shield.

AC 21
REF 10+1+2+1+1 = 15
FORT 10+0+1+1 = 12
WILL 10+3+1+1+1 = 17

Steve the LV 2 Human Fighter has Scale Mail, a Heavy Shield, 18 STR, 14 WIS, and 13 DEX.

AC 20
REF 10+1+2+1+1 = 15
FORT 10+4+2+1+1 = 18
WILL 10+2+0+1+1 = 14

I'm thinking these are pretty reasonable. Now, Reflex is the most common NAD targeted, and you're on par with a reasonably constructed Human Fighter. Not bad. Fortitude is usually targeted for with poisons, so invest in an Amulet of Health +1 and you really don't have much to worry about. Will is incredible, which is handy since controllers have a nasty habit of targeting it.

Given your superior healing abilities, I think you'll still be fine. Just stay away from the Lurkers (let the Fighter keep them away from your squishies) and you'll be fine. Remember, you're supposed to keep the buffers, debuffers and area-of-effect guys down; leave the damage dealers to the rest of your party

Honestly, though, I've taken a philosophic view of defenses.

My Elven Bow Cleric has awful, awful Fortitude, so rather than wasting time trying to cover it, I just assume that Fortitude attacks will always hit me. I spend my time buffing my other defenses to ridiculous levels (like my Will) since I have a chance of avoiding hits there. I think it's probably the sanest thing to do, even with Defenders, since monsters rarely are able to choose between all four defenses; they may target one or two - AC almost always being one - and if you keep your AC and at least one NAD high, you'll probably do alright.

[TheOOB]

Bastard sword is better than longsword + Eladrin Soldier only for attacks that deal 3[w] and more. I'd say that Eladrin Soldier is better for heroic tier.

If you have weapon focus it's equal at 2[w] attacks, plus bastard sword crits better. It's a fair choice, both options are good, but in the long run(paragon or further), bastard sword is better.

[Tengu_temp]

If you have weapon focus it's equal at 2[w] attacks, plus bastard sword crits better. It's a fair choice, both options are good, but in the long run(paragon or further), bastard sword is better.

It's equally good at 2[w] attack regardless whether you have Weapon Focus or not, because WF stacks with Eladrin Soldier. Yeah, bastard sword is a better choice in the long run, but that's the reason why 4e has retraining.

[TheOOB]

Here is a level 3(max the char gen will allow without a subscription) eladrin paladin character sheet, with corelleon as a patron for added mobility. There isn't much going on here yet(it could be better with access to non core materials, but I didn't want to assume), but it's a good starting point. It's poised to get the heavy blade feats with a little investment, and will benefit greatly from the addition of a fighter or warlord multiclass(some of the str paladin powers or underwhelming, but fighter and warlord have great replacements.)

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=e...4e75f6e8ebb871

[KKL]

WF stacks with Eladrin Soldier.

I don't think so, Tim.

Weapon Focus
Benefit: Choose a specific weapon group, such as spears or heavy blades. You gain a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls with your chosen weapon group.

Eladrin Soldier [Eladrin]
Prerequisite: Eladrin
Benefit: You gain proficiency with all spears and a +2 feat bonus to damage rolls with longswords and all spears.

[Tengu_temp]

Wha... either Eladrin Soldier/Dwarven Weapon Training gave untyped bonuses last time I checked, or I mistook them with Genasi racial feats for swordmages.

[KKL]

Wha... either Eladrin Soldier/Dwarven Weapon Training gave untyped bonuses last time I checked, or I mistook them with Genasi racial feats for swordmages.

Probably the latter, as ES/DWT has always had been feat bonuses.

[TheOOB]

The dwarven and eladrin feats are nice little bonuses early on, but there are no reason to pick that race in particular or to choose one weapon type over another. They are only +1 over weapon focus in heroic tier, and equal in paragon.

[Tengu_temp]

The first assumption was purely hypothetical, because last time I checked words do not change in books on their own.

By the way, that sucks - there is no reason to take ES/DWT at paragon and epic levels. There at least would be a point if they stacked with WF.

[KKL]

The first assumption was purely hypothetical, because last time I checked words do not change in books on their own.

By the way, that sucks - there is no reason to take ES/DWT at paragon and epic levels. There at least would be a point if they stacked with WF.

The only time you *need* to switch either feat out is at epic, if you really want that +1 damage. At heroic/paragon, the feat remains useful.

[Tengu_temp]

What I mean that it's a waste both dwarves and eladrin have one of their racial feats getting obsolete at levels 11+, while some other races have feats that rock no matter what level you are on.

[Reluctance]

The eladrin/dwarf feats also come with bonus weapon proficiencies. Proficiency with all axes and hammers is nice enough to keep around as you level. Proficiency with all spears admittedly less so.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Make sure to at least consider Oracle_Hunter's advice. He's forgotten more about paladins than any of us will ever know!

[Mando Knight]

Proficiency with all spears admittedly less so.

It has its uses...
Adventurer's Vault: Greatspear. +3 proficiency reach weapon. Tratnyr: larger damage die javelin. Urgrosh: double weapon, defensive.

[Asbestos]

If you're going to have a decent wisdom and don't care too much about hitting with OAs, then consider 'Divine Rage' for Channel Divinity. Minor Action, Wisdom vs Will, Close Burst 1. Pushes enemies 1 square and gives them a -2 to attack rolls until the end of your next turn, on a miss it pushes them as well.

[Artanis]

You do realize, of course, that no matter who she actually worships, you have to make the Paladin draw her power from a Lawful Good sorta-deity that's chained in the basement of the Eladrin capital city, right?