[3.5] Feint as an "Attack" Action?

[Kaihaku]

Would it be unbalancing to introduce a Feat that allows Feinting as an attack action? That is sacrificing one attack out of a full attack in order to feint? What if the benefits of that Feint only applied to the next attack, not the entire full attack?

[Animefunkmaster]

If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

Already works on your (single) next attack. There is a feat expands this to the whole round. I don't feel feinting as an attack action would be unbalancing (perhaps it should already be that).

You should also revise feinting so that bab adds some type of benefit (maybe not full bab just a +1-5 bonus) on both sides of the scale. As it is your bluff check is VS there sense motive +BAB.

[Kaihaku]

Already works on your (single) next attack. There is a feat expands this to the whole round.

Good call. I've been tossing this around in my head but I didn't actually look into it before posting.

I don't feel feinting as an attack action would be unbalancing (perhaps it should already be that).

That's how I feel.

You should also revise feinting so that bab adds some type of benefit (maybe not full bab just a +1-5 bonus) on both sides of the scale. As it is your bluff check is VS there sense motive +BAB.

Another good point.

[Draz74]

I don't feel feinting as an attack action would be unbalancing (perhaps it should already be that).

I would propose:

Without Improved Feint: move action.
With Improved Feint: attack action.

[Eldariel]

Yea, it makes absolutely no sense that you can't feint as an attack; after all, that's what feinting is, making a fake attack or trick in lieu of your normal attacks. That'd definitely make feinting more efficient, and maybe even cause non-Rogues to learn it (which would be kinda sensible seeing how it's a standard tactic in actual swordfighting). I'd allow feinting as an attack or a move action as per the standard state of affairs, and feinting in lieu of attacks as an "extra" attack (free action once per round) with Improved Feint. That makes most sense IMHO. Then you could buff Invisible Blade's Feint-ability to allow as many free feints as you have attacks or some such.

[Sholos]

I would propose:

Without Improved Feint: move action.
With Improved Feint: attack action.

That doesn't make any sense. You can already take two move actions in one turn if you want, but only one attack action. Why should Improved Feint restrict your ability to feint? It needs to be flipped the other way around.

[Starbuck_II]

That doesn't make any sense. You can already take two move actions in one turn if you want, but only one attack action. Why should Improved Feint restrict your ability to feint? It needs to be flipped the other way around.

Not attack action, 1 attack.

So a Level 6 Fighter with improved Fient can fient 3 times: both attacks and move action.

[Draz74]

That doesn't make any sense. You can already take [snip] only one attack action.

Nope. Attack action is not the same as standard action. Once your BAB is +6 or higher, you can take multiple attack actions as part of a full attack.

This would, for example, allow a high-level Swashbuckler to feint twice and attack twice all in the same turn, and that's before you consider extra attacks from TWF or Haste or whatnot.

Granted, feinting would still be a terribly underpowered ability. But hey, I was going for a "quick fix," not a thorough fix.

[Teron]

Not attack action, 1 attack.

So a Level 6 Fighter with improved Fient can fient 3 times: both attacks and move action.

A full attack (attacking more than once) is a full-round action. You don't get a move action.

[bosssmiley]

I would propose:

Without Improved Feint: move action.
With Improved Feint: attack action.

You could just make feinting a Swift Action (without IF feat) or a Free Action (with IF feat) as an adjunct to a perfectly normal attack. The opponent still has to fail the bluff check after all. Book-keeping, action budgeting and extra die rolls minimised; everyone wins.

Move action to feint? Attack to feint? Why penalise a relatively minor combat action twice? (unless you're part of the school of thought that says the beatstick brigade shouldn't be allowed nice things )

[Ascension]

Nononono, don't make it free or you could spam it indefinitely. I like Move action without Improved Feint, Swift action with.

[Kaihaku]

Mechanically, I can definitely relate to the urge to "toss" martial types a bone. In this case, giving them the ability to Feint as a swift or free action... However, as a fan of old Errol Flynn movies and as someone who has fenced, though only for a few months, I would rather take this system mechanic a step towards "how it should be" rather than use it to try to balance out the system (there are other more effective ways to do that).

Yea, it makes absolutely no sense that you can't feint as an attack; after all, that's what feinting is, making a fake attack or trick in lieu of your normal attacks. That'd definitely make feinting more efficient, and maybe even cause non-Rogues to learn it (which would be kinda sensible seeing how it's a standard tactic in actual swordfighting).

[Sholos]

Okay, so as an attack action you've still got to choose whether to do that, or actually attack, unless you can manage a full attack. So, it's an improvement, but not a huge one. I'd be more a fan of making it a swift action so that you don't have to wait an entire round.

[Ascension]

unless you can manage a full attack.

And on that note, while we're talking about rebalancing, Pounce (or an equivalent) should be easier to obtain (without everybody and their cousin somehow being a Lion Totem Barbarian).

[Kaihaku]

And on that note, while we're talking about rebalancing, Pounce (or an equivalent) should be easier to obtain (without everybody and their cousin somehow being a Lion Totem Barbarian).

I agree and have been pondering the best way to do so for awhile...

[Eldariel]

Mechanically, I can definitely relate to the urge to "toss" martial types a bone. In this case, giving them the ability to Feint as a swift or free action... However, as a fan of old Errol Flynn movies and as someone who has fenced, though only for a few months, I would rather take this system mechanic a step towards "how it should be" rather than use it to try to balance out the system (there are other more effective ways to do that).

Eh, having a free action feint simply means that the guy with Improved Feint is able to do slightly more in the frontline. Mechanically, being able to do it as an attack action doesn't really help before you have at least 3 attacks a round, so getting one as a free action once per round for a feat seems to be just what the doctor ordered; once you're good enough, you can fit one feint into your normal attack routine without giving up actual damage chance.

As for the Pounce-stuff, just allow full attack minus one (to the minimum of one attack) on charges and standard actions. That means that again, once you have 3+ attacks, you aren't really inconvenienced by moving. Also, make all iteratives happen at -5 penalty to avoid them becoming trivial.

[Kantur]

I agree and have been pondering the best way to do so for awhile...

My instinctive idea would be to add it to the dodge, mobility, spring attack chain after Spring Attack - requires a moderate dexterity score, and a couple of feats investment in feats that aren't winners by themselves and showing a movement based focus.
For a fighter, they'll have enough feats to spend a few to get Pounce that way (Doable at level 6 with a few to spare because of Spring Attack's +4 BAB requirement, just when it starts to become useful with the itterative attack). For Rogues, melee Rangers, etc, it's doable, requires a bit more effort, but can still be worth it. And it would improve monks a fair bit if they were willing to pick up the feat investment...

Edit: Having looked at the BABs at each level, the only reason a +6 BAB requirement would even be needed would be in case of multiclassing for a bonus feat, or to meet Spring Attack a little earlier, but that would only really affect medium BAB classes as they hit +6/+1 a level before their next feat, Full and Half BAB hit +6/+1 at the same level as a new feat (Assuming single classed or only taking 'matching' BAB classes.)