[2e] What did psionics do wrong?

[Insert Name Here]

Alright, I've seen psionics in second edition be referenced as a big mistake or what we don't want again. I'm not disagreeing or anything, I just don't know where it's coming from, and I'd appreciate if someone could explain.

[its_all_ogre]

erm where do you start?
they made it totally incompatible with the rest of the 2e system
you had two choices of character:
1 you suck and there is no point in you even playing
2 you rock so much, your powers have no saves allowed and nothing in the world can stop you mwa ha ha


erm loads more but those were the major issues

[The Glyphstone]

And wasn't psionics not a voluntary character option, but a random d% roll for every character?

[Tsotha-lanti]

And wasn't psionics not a voluntary character option, but a random d% roll for every character?

A big no and a little yes.

No, actual psionicists got to choose everything like they wanted. I never saw a real problem with them.

Yes, when it came to wild talents. This idea was originally from Dark Sun, I think; it was later also found in Player's Option: Skills & Talents, but was always most strongly part of Dark Sun, where every single PC was a wild talent. In PO:S&T, you had a percentage chance of being a wild talent. In either case, you randomly rolled what your power was, and it could be crap like disintegration. At first level. Yeah, that's a great idea.

[Fax Celestis]

And wasn't psionics not a voluntary character option, but a random d% roll for every character?

Yup. And when you randomly acquired powers, they meant "randomly". You rolled on this gigantic table that contained powers ranging from "weaker than a cantrip" to "better than time stop."

[Insert Name Here]

Alright, got it.
The wild talents seemed like a bad idea. The class is what I was more curious about

[Tsotha-lanti]

Now, let's be factual. In The Complete Psionics Handbook (my bad; wild talents were in there already), the table is a page and a half, with 85 devotions and 31 sciences. Hardly gigantic. As I said, it only applies for wild talents. Psionicists choose their devotions, sciences, and attack and defense modes.

The list does include pretty much everything, including superior invisibility, disintegrate, and summon planar creature, but there's really no psionic powers that are as strong as even 8th-level wizard spells, that I can see. Time shift isn't anything near time stop.

The Player's Option: Skills & Powers version has maybe a few fewer devotions and 17 sciences - no disintegrate this time, but death field is there...

Edit: The PO:S&P table takes up maybe a third of a page. The same table in the Dark Sun booklet The Way of the PSionicist takes up one page's sidebar.

[Matthew]

There were a number of different approaches. If you want to "build" an AD&D psionicist then you need to look at Skills & Powers. The other systems can be found in the:

Dungeon Master's Guide (first edition)
Complete Psionicist's Handbook
Dark Sun Campaign Setting (and supplements)

[Fax Celestis]

...the table is a page and a half...

Hardly gigantic.

These two statements do not agree.

[its_all_ogre]

a lot of the powers had no saving throws and magic resistance did not typically apply.
most 3x players/dms wince at the idea of psionics purely because of 2e experiences.

was probably the worst thing ever done to 2e dnd imo

[Kurald Galain]

The main problem is that non-psionics have little or no defense against psionics.

The secondary problem is that because psionic powers don't have levels, some of the more powerful ones are available too soon.

And the tertiary problem is that randomly giving 1% of all players a cool ability is as unfair as rolling for ability scores (but not everybody minds, of course).

[hamlet]

It always makes me chuckle - well, in the spirit of honesty, enraged - when people say that AD&D 2e psionics were "completely incompatible with the rest of the system." Most times people say idiotic things like that, it turns out that they never actually read the rules, or read a different set of rules and projected them elsewhere. The rules in the 1st edition PHB are NOT the same as in 2nd edition Complete Psionics Handbook. Nor are the Players Options rules for psionics the original (nor the best in many opinions).

The original 2nd edition psionics rules from the Complete Psionics Handbook(not the original rules for psionics in all D&D - those came with Supplement III) have mechanics based off of the non-weapon proficiency system with added, optional results for critical success and failure: i.e., roll d20 under score and succeed, over and fail. That, right there, is the summation of the nuts and bolts of how 9 out of 10 psionic powers functioned in 2nd edition (mental combat was a different can of worms).

Yes, the guidlines on how many powers of different sorts that you could gain were a little complicated, but hardly mindbending if you took the time to actually read them. Essentially, at character creation you chose a main discipline, a focus of your power like telepathy, psychokinesis, or psychoportation, and most of your powers were drawn from that "school" while you could only gain a smattering of powers from the other focci.

It is patently untrue that psionic powers granted no saves. It was explicit in the book that affected persons could save vs. spell to avoid and/or detect deleterious effects. Granted, as I recall that rule was stuffed in the back somewhere, but it was there.

As for the Wild Talent being "unbalancing," yes, it is possible to roll up a power like Disintigrate at first level (though the chance to be a wild talent in the first place was something on the order of about 3% and the chance of rolling a power on that table like that was something like 3-7% maybe). However, the way the system worked, a character was VERY unlikely to have enough psionic potential (PSP's) to be able to use that power more than once every 36 hours. On top of that, there's a very decent chance that a non-profesional can botch his roll and vaporize himself in the process. Also, remember that Wild Talents were entirely optional.

Let's also be honest about Dark Sun, too. It's not like a single wild talent is going to make a huge difference in the single deadliest campaign setting going where, literally, the entire world is out to get you and just travelling between cities is deadly without the chance of encountering monsters on the way.

Are psionics in the Complete Handbook version overpowered? Hardly. Even though by 20th level you could have hundreds of PSP's, few powers were ever "fire and forget" like magic and often simple effects resulted in huge drains on a psionicist's endurance. Not to mention that, as mentioned above, few powers compared to the raw, unthinking power a wizard could throw around casually with 8th and 9th level spells. It's not at all unlikely in practice for a psionicist to burn through large portions of his power accomplishing anything above a basic task (like moving a small object) or in a combat situation where multiple powers have to be maintained throughout. Plus, many powers scaled depending on what you tried to do. Moving a skipping stone around was cheap and easy. Moving a boulder was MUCH more costly.

I will say, though, that psionic combat in its original form was needlessly complicated and kludgy. However, it's very easy to fix. Plus, if you don't want to be bothered with the book keeping of gradual PSP regeneration (measured in points by the hour depending on activity), it was very simple to say that the PSP total was a "per day" allocation regenerated by 8 hours sleep or meditation. This actually would make psionics stronger since very powerful characters would have taken days, or even a week to regenerate fully.

[its_all_ogre]

i have complete psionics on my bookshelf
in played numerous psionic characters, they were either pointless additions to a party or became incarnate god dependant on power selection.
the proficiency use to pull off powers is a good example of exactly why they could become useless/overpowered.

of course stats mattered a lot, if you had usual stats for 2e 12 15 8 9 12 11 then there was unlikely to be an issue but if someone rolled up a monster 12 18 13 9 16 16 then there was going to be trouble.

[hamlet]

The main problem is that non-psionics have little or no defense against psionics.

Or, you could do like the book suggests and throw in a save vs. spells maybe? Especially for telepathic powers.

The secondary problem is that because psionic powers don't have levels, some of the more powerful ones are available too soon.

Yeah, it was certainly possible to get Detonate or Disintegrate at 1st level (IIRC), but chances are you'd probably only be able to use it once, maybe twice a day. Then, you were a sitting duck.

And the tertiary problem is that randomly giving 1% of all players a cool ability is as unfair as rolling for ability scores (but not everybody minds, of course).

A 1% chance for a cool power that had to be unlocked via the exceedingly dangerous power of Psychic Surgery, which involved finding somebody powerful enough to actually use said power on you (a prospect fraught with peril itself since anybody of sufficient skill to perform said psychic surgery could just as easily melt your brain in six seconds) and, if not successfull, stood a really good chance of doing permanent damage, or flat out killing the character.

All in all, your chances of being a successful, non-vegetable wild talent were about 1 in 500. In all my time gaming, there've been a grand total of 2 wild talents rolled. One had a few minor powers that were hardly "cool" and the other got thrown into a persistent vegetative state by a botched attempt to realize the power.

Plus, the wild talent shtick was entirely optional and was noted in the book as something the DM would want to consider carefully before permitting.

[Fostire]

On wild talents:
-They were completely optional
-The highest chance you could have of being a wild talent on 1st level was 10% and that required a human with 18 on wisdom, intelligence, and constitution, and it also required you to be neither mage or cleric.
-If you chose to roll for wild talent, there was a chance of getting your wisdom, intelligence, and constitution permanently reduced if you rolled 97 or higher (if you rolled 00 you had to make a save vs death at a -5 penalty or have all three scores reduced by 3), and it's not like it was easy to raise your stats on 2e.

[Fax Celestis]

On wild talents:
-They were completely optional

Granted.

-The highest chance you could have of being a wild talent on 1st level was 10% and that required a human with 18 on wisdom, intelligence, and constitution, and it also required you to be neither mage or cleric.

...which is silly. Is there any particular reason that not everyone can be a wild talent?

-If you chose to roll for wild talent, there was a chance of getting your wisdom, intelligence, and constitution permanently reduced if you rolled 97 or higher (if you rolled 00 you had to make a save vs death at a -5 penalty or have all three scores reduced by 3), and it's not like it was easy to raise your stats on 2e.

...which is also silly. Why should I be penalized for having good luck?

[hamlet]

Granted.
...which is silly. Is there any particular reason that not everyone can be a wild talent?
...which is also silly. Why should I be penalized for having good luck?

1) Because despite what grade school or your mother may have told you, not everybody is special.

2) Because, as has been mentioned, psionics are a very dangerous force in a game world, both to targets, and to the users of said powers. Psychic Surgery (the required power to unlock a wild talent) is exactly brain surgery. Somebody going into your brain and fiddling with the wiring. Tell me again how that wouldn't be obscenely dangerous? It creates a choice for the player on whether or not they want to run the risk of exploring that potential.

No power comes without a cost.

[its_all_ogre]

Granted.
...which is silly. Is there any particular reason that not everyone can be a wild talent?
...which is also silly. Why should I be penalized for having good luck?

did you never play 2e?
sometimes the game penalized you for PLAYING!

[Starbuck_II]

did you never play 2e?
sometimes the game penalized you for PLAYING!

Not as bad as Traveler System: that one can kill you in the creation process.

[Fax Celestis]

1) Because despite what grade school or your mother may have told you, not everybody is special.

Not what I meant. I meant, "what about being a spellcaster precludes you from psionics?" The notion that I could have inborn psychic powers but then, when I multiclassed to priest, would lose them, is ridiculous.

2) Because, as has been mentioned, psionics are a very dangerous force in a game world, both to targets, and to the users of said powers. Psychic Surgery (the required power to unlock a wild talent) is exactly brain surgery. Somebody going into your brain and fiddling with the wiring. Tell me again how that wouldn't be obscenely dangerous? It creates a choice for the player on whether or not they want to run the risk of exploring that potential.

No power comes without a cost.

That choice and cost was made and paid when the Psychic Surgery was originally performed, what with the 10% (maximum) chance and all. But being penalized for succeeding too well (which is generally what the high 90 range of a d100 roll is for, especially after passing the initial pass/fail chance) is bad game design.

[Fostire]

...which is silly. Is there any particular reason that not everyone can be a wild talent?

Everyone has a base chance of 1%. There are modifiers:
-A +3% for each 18 score on wisdom, intelligence, and constitution
-A +2% for each 17 score on wisdom, intelligence, and constitution
-A +1% for each 16 score on wisdom, intelligence, and constitution
-A +1% if character is 5th to 8th level
-A +2% if character is 9th level or higher
-A +2% if character is under the guidance of a psychic surgeon
-Half the chances if the character is Cleric, Mage, or Nonhuman (apply penalty once, round fractions up)

...which is also silly. Why should I be penalized for having good luck?

It's not good luck, to determine wild talent you had to roll low numbers on a d100 (lower than 1 + modifiers), if you rolled too high (97+) you had penalties. It's a risk the player takes if he wants to be a wild talent, he could get a really cool power or he could end up a vegetable.

[Zen Monkey]

There seem to be a few categories of complaints against 2e psionics:

1. Wild Talents: These have been around since before 2nd ed, in the days when bard was essentially a prestige class. It's random and sometimes unfair, and kind of a pain when monsters have them and you don't.

2. Power Level: While being one-dimensional, your character could get some high level abilities at pretty low level (disintegrate, body stealing, etc). Remember that in those days a wizard had one spell at first level, fighters had no feats, etc. It isn't always abused, but it can be, and isn't offset by things like spell level that would prevent the mages and priests from skipping ahead.

3. A Separate Game: You and the DM are playing a card game of attack and defense modes and whatever other variables, playing out a mini-combat that the other characters can't see or participate in. The other players are bored while you're taking up all the combat time and attention.

4. DM Comfort: It forces the DM to learn a different set of rules, come up with mental armor class and power resistances/immunities for all of the monsters, and generally added an expansion pack to the game with alot of new rules. A number of DM's just didn't want the extra hassle or complexity.

[Starsinger]

1) Because despite what grade school or your mother may have told you, not everybody is special.

I thought that's why adventurers (i.e.) PCs were better than NPCs because they all are special.

[Fostire]

(the required power to unlock a wild talent)

That isn't exactly correct.

A character can test for wild powers only at specific times: when the character is first created; when the character's Wisdom increases to a higher point than it has ever been; the first time the character goes to a psionicist who can perform psychic surgery on him; when psionics is first introduced to the campaign.

@Fax: You wouldn't lose your wild talents if you multiclassed into priest (which isn't a class by the way, druids in 2e classify as priests too and don't get the penalty), the penalty applies only when you roll for wild talent.

[Starbuck_II]

I thought that's why adventurers (i.e.) PCs were better than NPCs because they all are special.

Actually, there was alot of treasure and high level NPCs in the old days. Heck, the more Treasure you got: the more exp you got.

Only in 3.5, are high level NPCs less common. No one complained about the fact that there were Walmarts of magic stores until 3.5 (check the Paizo boards for the prevelance of it now).

So in 3.5, yes Adventures are special, but not in 2nd.

[Fax Celestis]

@Fax: You wouldn't lose your wild talents if you multiclassed into priest (which isn't a class by the way, druids in 2e classify as priests too and don't get the penalty), the penalty applies only when you roll for wild talent.

Again, then: why bother with that qualification?

[Fostire]

Again, then: why bother with that qualification?

If I remember correctly, the penalty was because cleric's and wizard's minds are trained in a specific manner that is completely different from psionics which makes it harder for any latent psionic powers to manifest.

[Myrmex]

That choice and cost was made and paid when the Psychic Surgery was originally performed, what with the 10% (maximum) chance and all. But being penalized for succeeding too well (which is generally what the high 90 range of a d100 roll is for, especially after passing the initial pass/fail chance) is bad game design.

That's not how chance works.

You could have it so instead, rolling a 2, a 37, a 66 and a 99 be bad news bears, and the outcome is the same as if you had to roll a 97-00.

[Fax Celestis]

That's not how chance works.

You could have it so instead, rolling a 2, a 37, a 66 and a 99 be bad news bears, and the outcome is the same as if you had to roll a 97-00.

Again, not the point. The Chance for Bad Things™ happened already, during the Psychic Surgery.

[hamlet]

Not what I meant. I meant, "what about being a spellcaster precludes you from psionics?" The notion that I could have inborn psychic powers but then, when I multiclassed to priest, would lose them, is ridiculous.

That was actually addressed in the book. Specifically, magical type folk literally thought differently than psionic type folk. Magic and psionics functioned completely differently and being a mage or priest put you in the wrong mindset to realize psionic potential.

I don't remember the exact wording, but it was something on the order of magic being the ability to alter the forces around you while psionics was the ability to utilize the forces within yourself.


Plus, you would never lose your ability if you dual classed. It is a part of your character that is above and beyond class abilities in the case of wild talents.

That choice and cost was made and paid when the Psychic Surgery was originally performed, what with the 10% (maximum) chance and all. But being penalized for succeeding too well (which is generally what the high 90 range of a d100 roll is for, especially after passing the initial pass/fail chance) is bad game design.

No, the cost is not "made and paid for" right there. There are two rolls. The first is the check as to whether you are a wild talent or not, a basic 1-10% chance at most. After that, there's the roll to determine what abilities you have, which is actually the psychic surgery part and can have dangerous repurrcussions. That second roll is the indicator of you having sought out somebody who is a powerful mind bender and asking them to help you realize your power and having survived the process.

It's the same thing for wizards who want new spells. You don't get them safe and sound by sitting on your duff, you have to go out and find them, which can be a risky proposition.