[3.5] Kensai Build

[Person_Man]

Kensai is a great PrC for a variety of reasons:

1) If you have multiple natural weapons of the same type, you can enchant all of them for a low XP cost. Even if your DM doesn't allow such shenanigans, you can still enchant both sides of a double weapon and get a pretty good deal.

2) You can enchant each weapon with whatever you want. So you can make one a +5 Defending of Elemental Power, and the other a +1 Spell Storing Subjugating Bodyfeeder Whatever, and get defense and offense all at once.

3) They can get a +8 UNTYPED bonus to Str by making a DC 15 Concentration check. The DC increases by +5 each time you make it. But Skill checks in general are easy to boost. So it should be quite easy to get a big Str boost whenever you need it. They can also make a Concentration check in place of a Reflex Save. So when combined with a Ring of Evasion, they're pretty much immune to anything that requires a Reflex Save.

So, my questions for the board are simple:

1) What is the best way to get lots of natural weapons of the same type that a reasonable DM would allow? (Wildshape? Some low LA race or template?) Failing that, what would the best double weapon be (I presume something Exotic)?

2) What are your favorite/best weapon enhancements, knowing that you will have at least two +10 weapons?

3) How can you boost Concentration to a ridiculous level? (Item Familiar, magic items?) And are there any other uses for Concentration that I'm missing? (Greater Insightful Strike?)

All non-magazine sources will be considered. Thanks.

[Eldariel]

Totemist gets a good bunch of natural weapons. Start with a race with two claws (and maybe bite? Be a Kobold!) and profit. Monk's Unarmed Strike counts as a natural weapon and arguably counts for two. Warforged can get two Slams. Fist of the Forest in Frenzy gets Bite, Warshaper gets Claw, Claw, Bite, Bloodclaw Master Shifting gets Claws. Then there're Shifters. Of course, Aberration Wildshape into Any Given Tentacle Monster takes the cake; even Mindflayers have 4 and then that's before even trying (and they also have awesome stats, usually, along with a crapton of handy special abilities) - stuff like Yochlol or Moonbeast just take Tentacles/Tendrils to another level entirely.

Probably just class stacking a bunch of Claws, going into Bloodclaw Master and combining martial maneuvers & full Str on Claws with your Kensai boosts and things should work out.


As for things to add, Wounding is brutal. Holy is great. Valorous is really nice if you pick Pounce. Corrosive and that thing that adds Sonic are quite decent too. Greater Dispelling is something I'd always want around. Really, the "perfect" weapon is nigh' impossible to figure out due to the vast amount of abilities available and the fact that all the best ones are sitiuational (Wounding weapon is kinda subpar vs. constructs, for example; animals care little for Holy).

[Fax Celestis]

Shifter with the Razorclaw trait and then taking Extra Shifter Trait for your first level feat gets you two claws and a bite while shifting for LA+0. Poisondusk Lizardfolk are LA+0 (or +1, I forget), and get some natural attacks.

I'd say, though, that going Shifter Totemist into Kensai would be reasonable. Totemists are The King of natural attacks.

Alternatively, some sort of lycanthrope or emantothrope might work. Nonpsionic thri-kreen get four claws and a bite for 2 RHD, +1 LA, which could work, but it's not for everyone.

Does the kensai ability preclude the use of outside augmentation--that is, can you use an Amulet of Natural Attacks or Amulet of Mighty Fists on your natural attacks to up their normal Enhancement bonus, while burning your kensai bonuses on enhancements?

Last thing: Concentration can be used to obtain psionic focus--and you can blow psionic focus to Take 15 on a mental skill check. All you need is a power point or the psionic subtype.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Concentration DC 15?!? At level 20 I can hit DC 60 (23 ranks+6 stat[16 Con with a +6 magic item]+30(magic item) on a roll of one with minimal investment. How exactly is that remotely balanced?

[Iku Rex]

Bonuses from the same source don't stack. Power Surge won't stack with itself.

[tyckspoon]

Concentration DC 15?!? At level 20 I can hit DC 60 (23 ranks+6 stat[16 Con with a +6 magic item]+30(magic item) on a roll of one with minimal investment. How exactly is that remotely balanced?

Skill checks generally seem to assume that there is no such thing as a generic +(10/20/30) item. If your DM is ok with them, they trivialize most skill checks you care to be good at. Without them you have to work a little harder (although DC 15 is still easy at high levels, the 20-25-30 etc. checks to repeat the bonus for other fights/ renew it for long fights may not be.) I would be more interested in knowing who decided to make it a +8 untyped bonus... although since it takes a move action to do and is short duration (and should not stack with itself regardless of being untyped- Power Surge is the same source as Power Surge.) I don't think it's actually broken.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Skill checks generally seem to assume that there is no such thing as a generic +(10/20/30) item. If your DM is ok with them, they trivialize most skill checks you care to be good at. Without them you have to work a little harder (although DC 15 is still easy at high levels, the 20-25-30 etc. checks to repeat the bonus for other fights/ renew it for long fights may not be.)

DC 30 is still makable on a one with only maxed ranks and a decent Con mod. That's just not right.

[Person_Man]

When looking at natural weapons, keep in mind that the class description specifies that they must be of the same type. So 4 claws will work, but the bite can't also be enchanted. Totemist would definitely give you a lot of options, but some DMs would rule that when the binding goes away, so does your weapon enhancement and XP. So permanent solutions would be better then temporary ones.

I just reread the class, and noticed something interesting about the Instill ability. Once per day, you can give any or all of your BAB and/or base Saves to a Willing ally (up to your Kensai level, so max of +10). So right off the bat, you can easily give up all of your base Reflex Save, because you don't need it. If you can pick up Moment of Perfect Mind and Mind over Body (Tome of Battle), then you can give them your Will and Fort Saves as well (though this is questionable, because those manuevers are Immediate actions, so you'd be screwed if you have to make more then one Save per round. Is there a way to shift your Saves to an ally?). Finally, you can give your BAB (giving them a huge boost and potentially giving them 1 or 2 additional attacks) and just spend your actions doing something else (Demoralize, activate a magic item, use some other class or racial ability). Or you can enchant your weapons with the Skillful property (Complete Arcane) and boost your BAB back up to 3/4 your character level. Certainly not an uber combo for you, but it's a huge boost for your friend, especially if he's a meatshield and you're just standing behind him as a buffing build.

[Animefunkmaster]

Concentration DC 15?!? At level 20 I can hit DC 60 (23 ranks+6 stat[16 Con with a +6 magic item]+30(magic item) on a roll of one with minimal investment. How exactly is that remotely balanced?

It's balanced for the following reasons:

-PreReqs for the class are weapon focus and combat expertise.
-Its (to my knowledge) the only rage like ability for lawful characters (lawful only)
-It has a duration of ½ your class level
-It doesn’t stack with itself, and requires a move action
-the check goes up by 5 per use.
-You custom item of +30 to a skill is 90,000gp for concentration… on a warrior.
-You have a 3/4th bab.
Now take a caster with 90,000 and see how this balances out.

Power surge is IMO, the only reason to Kensai, Withstand is nice… and Instill can get stupid powerful with clones/body outside of bodies (again talking UMD here) but is otherwise meh. The bonuses to Natural weapons is nice, but if you are using a manufactured weapon you are better with bonded magic item (DMGII 231).

Edit: Also Body outside of Body and Giant Size are both wujen, so we are talking enlighten fist, not sacred fist. High level spells too.

[Fax Celestis]

When looking at natural weapons, keep in mind that the class description specifies that they must be of the same type. So 4 claws will work, but the bite can't also be enchanted. Totemist would definitely give you a lot of options, but some DMs would rule that when the binding goes away, so does your weapon enhancement and XP. So permanent solutions would be better then temporary ones.

Insectile Thri-Kreen with permanent Girallon's blessing? That's eight claws, I think. Sure, you might be susceptible to dispelling, but I'm sure you can find a way around that (ring of counterspells [dispel magic], maybe).

Also, remember that a totemist's melds don't unshape at the end of the day: they remain shaped until specifically dispelled or unshaped. So two levels of totemist to bind Girallon Arms would get you four claws for essentially free, and three more would let you bind Sphinx Claws to your arms for pounce. Maybe Totemist 5/Warblade 2 (for those maneuvers you were talking about, as well as some Tiger Claw doublestrike stuff)/Kensai X (plus or minus Bloodclaw Master if you go high enough level).

EDIT: so depending on how your DM rules it's either 4 base (thri-kreen) + 2 (insectile) + 2 (permanent girallon's blessing) + 2 (girallon arms) = 10 claws, or 4 base (thri-kreen) + 4 (insectile) + 4 (permanent girallon's blessing) + 4 (girallon arms) = 16 claws

[UserClone]

Insectile creatures have six arms. There is no mention of gaining 4 additional arms, only that the creature ends up with six arms. Also, the previous point is moot, since the additional limbs that you gain (in a thri-kreen's case 2) grant you NO additional attacks, as per the template description in Savage Species. However, they do help if you decide to go the other route and fuse them suckers via fuse arms, you'll get +4 Strength per pair beyond the first (but which limits you to two total attacking limbs, barring a bite or some tentacle craziness).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd go Monk with a Longstaff (CV), grab some Fighter levels and take one level of Exotic Weapon Master for Exotic Flurry and max out Kensai asap. Get each end enchanted for Speed, then add Wounding and Marrowcrushing (BoVD). Monk Flurry with EWM Flurry with Speed will give you quite a few attacks/round, each hit dealing 2 Con damage. I'd dip 2+ levels into Suel Arcanamach for Wraithstrike just to be able to hit your opponents. Take the feat Quickstaff (CW) and use Combat Expertise for -2 each round for +4 AC and you can't be flanked. Monk even gets Evasion and the right class skills. Use the Passive Way fighting style (UA) to get Combat Expertise and Improved Trip without the Int prerequisite, and use two EWM levels to be able to Trip with your Longstaff. Suel Arcanamach will also add Enlarge Person to the mix.

Probably go something like Monk 2/ Fighter 4/ Kensai 3/ Suel Arcanamach 2+/ Exotic Weapon Master 2/ Kensai+, and make your Longstaff +1 Wounding on each end right away. You could even use the staff two-handed and use unarmed strikes as your offhand TWF attacks. In that case, make the other end of the staff +5 Defending an AC bonus. I have no idea how many feats that build needs or gets, but Fighter gets 3, Monk gets 2, the Otyugh Hole takes care of Iron Will for SA, and there's a few overlapping prerequisites. If you get Quickstaff you may as well dip one level of Dragonslayer since you'll already qualify for it.

[Darrin]

EDIT: so depending on how your DM rules it's either 4 base (thri-kreen) + 2 (insectile) + 2 (permanent girallon's blessing) + 2 (girallon arms) = 10 claws, or 4 base (thri-kreen) + 4 (insectile) + 4 (permanent girallon's blessing) + 4 (girallon arms) = 16 claws

Don't forget the Lamia's Belt soulmeld. Adds two secondary claw attacks to your lower torso if bound to your Totem chakra. Girallon Arms is already there, though... well, if you can get Meldshaper level 9, you can take the Double Chakra feat and bind them both to your Totem chakra.

Arms of Plenty (Lords of Madness, Sor/Wiz 3) can add another 2 claws. Not sure you can permanence it... but if you can permanence Girallon's Blessing, I suppose you can do the same with Arms of Plenty.

Clawed Arm, Fiendish Graft (Fiend Folio) is a little expensive (50000 GP)... I don't know, I'm not sure if removing/replacing the existing arm is required. The graft description doesn't mention it, and there doesn't seem to be any limitation on acquiring multiple Clawed Arms, although the description of "Acquiring a Fiendish Graft" on page 209 may imply that removing a limb might be required.

Fang of Lolth 9 adds another 4 claws.

Tentacles might be another way to go...

Start with Tako, 7 base (Oriental Adventures), +2 (Deepspawn), +2 (Displacer Mantle soulmeld), +4 (Illithid Grapple x4), +2 (Evard's Menacing Tentacles, PHBII), +4 (Flaying Tendrils, CompMage), +2 (Half-Farspawn template, LA +4), +1 (Voidmind template, LA +3), +1 (Gutsnake, SC... not sure if this is a tentacle attack or a bite attack, though) = 25ish tentacles?

[Paul H]

Hi

My Samurai/Ftr 5/Rogue 1/Kensai 8 has Concentration +27, due to Con, Skill Points, and Third Eye Concentration (MIC), (grants +10 Concentration).
Very nice when you consider my Kensai also uses his Concentration instead of Reflex saves for area effects.

Cheers
Paul H

[woodenbandman]

The kensai is a good class for a martial warrior. Anything else is trading down.

Initiators lose maneuvers, Spellcasters lose spells, Psywars lose powers.

So really what it is is a good warrior class, but it has medium BAB. How is THAT balanced?

I actually see the kensai as rather underpowered, myself. It's a trap on the level of the paladin for a DM who thinks that fighters are OP, and such DMs will try and make you irrevocably fall. THEN, after you may or may not have to put up with this type of antagonistic DMing, you get... a good reflex save, +6 damage/hit, and a weapon. Good for you. Except that the +8 strength actually gives you less than the +3 BAB would have given you, because the +3 BAB can be power attacked away and give similar damage. So you really just net a +4 to-hit over the other guy, and a cheaper weapon. I'm still not impressed. You probably shouldn't have trouble getting a good deal on a weapon if your party thinks in terms of hard numbers (such as I just demonstrated).

I love the kensai's flavor, and I used to want to be one, but then I saw that it was actually a kind of subpar class. It's a decent dip for the reflex save ability, but you'll never afford the skillpoints on your fighter skillpoint salary, and if you do, you'll still be useless out of combat.

[Demons_eye]

I once played a Sword Sage/kensai/drunkenmaster(3rd not 3.5) and I was a little op. Mixing the class and the abilitys I had like +15 str every fight. I spent the money on items that helped my skills and I loved makeing 100 foot jumps easy. That was a fun game. Kensai may not be the best melee class but its one of the most fun to play.

[dspeyer]

The other use for concentration for a melee character is the Diamond Mind school. It has some very powerful options (turn any attack into a touch attack, double your total damage -- and those are low-level manuevers). Kensai/swordsage seems like a good fluff match. Remember to take the swordsage levels last, so that you get high level starting manuevers. If you don't want to spend the class levels, there's also the martial study feat.

[Arbitrarity]

Changeling Warshaper/Kensai. I'm not sure if you can get the 14 levels of PrC's in, but really, sprouting instant(infinite) tentacles with huge bonuses is useful.

[Paul H]

Hi

What about Druids with Spirited Charge?

Thinking of Druid 9/Kensai xxxxx

At Druid 9/Kensai 6 you've got

You (Dire Ape) riding Huge (Animal Growthed) Dire Lion. Wpns are +2/Holy/Collision (MIC, +5 Dam)

Cast Bite Weretiger, then Lions Charge (free action) next round & spirited charge....

You
2 Claw Attacks +27: Dam 6D6+38
1 Bite Attack +25: Dam 8D6+12
Rend 12D6+19

Huge Dire Lion

2 Claw Attacks + 26: Dam 3D6+18
1 Bite Attack + 24: Dam 4D6+ 9
2 Rake Attacks + 26: Dam 3D6 +9

Bite Weretiger also grants Pwr Attack & Blindfighting, but also limits your attacks/rnd. (Not affected in this example).

Also following round your damage reduces to 3D6+9 (Claw), 4D6+6 (Bite), 6D6+9 (Rend).

Not sure I'd go past 6th lvl Kensai with that one.

In local Age of Worms campaign I've got Samurai/Rogue/Ftr/Kensai mix, with only 8 levels of Kensai, using an over sized Katana (2D8 dam).
Katana +1/Holy/Heavenly Burst/Collision/Spell Storing. (Scorching Ray CL 11+ does extra 12D6 Fire dam).
I've got Wpn Focus/Specialisation/Imp Crit in Katana.

Cheers
Paul H

[Darrin]

1) What is the best way to get lots of natural weapons of the same type that a reasonable DM would allow? (Wildshape? Some low LA race or template?) Failing that, what would the best double weapon be (I presume something Exotic)?

Longstaff is tempting... particularly if you go with Strongarm Bracers and Heavy property (gold or platinum) for 2d6 damage.

Kaorti Double Scimitar (A&EG) could be very nice. 1d6/1d6, 18-20 crit x4.

2) What are your favorite/best weapon enhancements, knowing that you will have at least two +10 weapons?

+1 Magebane. It's like bane vs. EVERYTHING DANGEROUS.
+2 Paralyzing. Every hit becomes save or die (Will DC 17).
+3 Force Weapon. Something like shock, ghost touch, and dispel magic (force effect) all rolled into one. From the WotC website: http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards..._lonedrowstats

3) How can you boost Concentration to a ridiculous level? (Item Familiar, magic items?) And are there any other uses for Concentration that I'm missing? (Greater Insightful Strike?)

Githcraft armor and shields. Each piece gives a +1 untyped bonus on concentration checks. Chain shirt + 2 bucklers + chahar-aina (OA) + dastana (OA) = +5 concentration bonus. Or you wanted something with multiple arms? Put a buckler on each arm, for +1 per arm.

Symbiont Abuse. There aren't a lot of restrictions on the number of symbionts you can attach to yourself. Most cost in the 2000 GP to 8000 GP range. They all act on your turn, some can cast spells, and they can all share spells with you. Hmm... tough to find any spells that give circumstance bonuses to skill checks. Focusing Chant might work, but it's bard-only. Worse comes to worse, just have them all "Aid Another" on your skill check: DC 10, +2 circumstance bonus per symbiont.

Divine Insight (SC, Cleric 2) = 5 + caster level insight bonus on next skill check. Guidance of the Avatar (WotC website, Cleric 2) = +20 circumstance bonus on next skill check. Both make very nice potions.

[Draz74]

+1 Magebane. It's like bane vs. EVERYTHING DANGEROUS.
+2 Paralyzing. Every hit becomes save or die (Will DC 17).
+3 Force Weapon. Something like shock, ghost touch, and dispel magic (force effect) all rolled into one. From the WotC website:

Magic Item Compendium updated (nerfed?) all three of these.

Magebane is still +1 in price. However, just having SLAs isn't enough to trigger it anymore.

Paralyzing got reduced to +1 price. But it only works 1/day.

Force is pretty awesome, even though it doesn't do +1d6 damage. It makes your weapon overcome all DR and incorporeality, all for just +2 price. However, it's explicitly restricted to projectile weapons, which probably won't help a Kensai Natural Weapons build.

[Fax Celestis]

Psychokinetic, for me, is better than the energy types even if it deals a d4 instead of a d6, mostly because its (a) always effective; and (b) automatically overcomes DR--not the whole attack, mind you, but the d4. So you could be going up against a creature with, say, DR 50/-...but you'll always deal that d4.

[Ganurath]

5 levels of Hexblade with the Dark Companion Varient, then at level 5 you get a +1 Coup de Grace (insert weapon with high crit chance.) How many frontliners can claim to spam Hold Monster?

[Darrin]

Magic Item Compendium updated (nerfed?) all three of these.

Dagnabbit. Should have checked MIC, sorry about that.

Psychokinetic, for me, is better than the energy types even if it deals a d4 instead of a d6, mostly because its (a) always effective; and (b) automatically overcomes DR--not the whole attack, mind you, but the d4. So you could be going up against a creature with, say, DR 50/-...but you'll always deal that d4.

But it takes a standard action to activate... how's that work? No listed duration, so 1 round activate, attack next round, repeat?

[mangosta71]

But it takes a standard action to activate... how's that work? No listed duration, so 1 round activate, attack next round, repeat?

Actually, it functions like a switch. You activate it, and it's on until you turn it off. And if I'm remembering the book correctly, the "command" is a thought (free) action that doesn't count toward your limit of actions taken per round.

[Fax Celestis]

Actually, it functions like a switch. You activate it, and it's on until you turn it off. And if I'm remembering the book correctly, the "command" is a thought (free) action that doesn't count toward your limit of actions taken per round.

Yup. The elemental properties have the same byline.

[Ascension]

I've been trying to keep myself from saying this since this thread was posted, but now I'm finally failing...

Optimization aside, the best Kensai enhancements are still Throwing, Returning body parts. The rocket punch monk, the kobold who throws his dentures at you...

[Jera]

Something thats always bugged me about the Kensai PRC is that there is a fighter varient from DR310 called Kensai that does almost the exact same thing.

Now its been a while since Ive read up on either, other than whats on crystalkeep, but is there anything big that differenciates the two?(apart from the obvious "ones a PRC while the other ones a variant base class")

[lesser_minion]

If you have a few levels of Psychic Warrior or something else psionic then you could always go with Suppression - free Dispel Psionics against any target struck, for a cost of +2, is not to be sniffed at.

There is also Great Dislocator (kicks opponents into a random other plane of existence- unfortunately you can't just pick Positive Energy Plane all the time and have the target explode from an overload of life force.)

[Darrin]

Something thats always bugged me about the Kensai PRC is that there is a fighter varient from DR310 called Kensai that does almost the exact same thing.

Now its been a while since Ive read up on either, other than whats on crystalkeep, but is there anything big that differenciates the two?(apart from the obvious "ones a PRC while the other ones a variant base class")

The Kensai fighter variant has full BAB. If I recall, it doesn't gain any abilities that enchant any weapons. You pick a chosen weapon, and you can take some Kensai-specific feats/abilities that basically boil down to a slightly improved Weapon Focus and a flurry-ish ability that gives you an extra attack. This makes it borken, because once you get that extra attack around level 4, there's no reason anyone would ever play a standard fighter.