Blowin' stuff up [OWoD]

[Project_Mayhem]

In our VtM campaign, my coterie and I are planning an assault on a group of Sabbat infernalists and their minions currently trapped under siege in a warded high security bank. Getting in isn't a problem, as we have Tremere allies on hand to lower the wards. We have a powerful Astral projector dealing with the big bad while my character (a reasonably fighty Gangrel), an antitribu Lasombra, and two uncharacteristically badass Toreador deal with the mooks on the surface and distract attention from the assasination below.

Our basic plan is reasonably sound - my question lies in regards to my contribution. I have pretty solid criminal contacts, and am requisitioning some assault rifles with underslung launchers. However, I'm not too sure how stupid using grenades indoors is. I'm not worried about getting caught in the blast, as there should be ample space, and I have 5 dots in fortitude anyway.

I'm more worried about structural damage to the building. While I only plan to fire a few volleys of bullets and grenades and then charge in and remove faces with my claws, I have no idea if the expolisions are likely to, say, bring a wall down or something, which could potentially crush us all.

Dunno much about this kind of thing irl.

[bobspldbckwrds]

keep the explosives away from load bearing walls and pillars. if at all possible, you may want to get a copy of the blueprint of the place you are doing this in. if at all possible, i would try to surprise them from above.

[Project_Mayhem]

Getting the blueprints should be possible. Smart. I like it.

Unfortunately, surprise is unlikely - they've been expecting an assault for ages, and will probably be monitering the wards. Depending on the layout, we might be able to go in the top floor.

[bobspldbckwrds]

what about smoke grenades or flash-bangs?

remember, the split second advantage is sometimes the best.

[Tengu_temp]

It's been a while since I even read a WoD book, but wouldn't smoke and flashbangs work less efficiently against vampires? They could be good against ghouls, though.

[tyckspoon]

Realistically speaking the building should be fine- anti-personnel styled explosives won't bring down a fortified building such as, one presumes, a high-security bank. You'd need proper demoliltion charges for that (which you may want to also apply, if you think you can acquire them and somehow get enough time to set them up.) You'll mess up the interior decoration and probably rip up a lot of drywall, but the load-bearing parts of the structure should be at most scuffed. Of course, there's the standard caveat: Your Storyteller may have different ideas. If he isn't very familiar with these kinds of weapons either, he may decide they *should* be a risk to the building's integrity. Or he may be familiar with them and decide that it's just more interesting if they can do something beyond cosmetic damage regardless of how they would function in the real world. So you should probably go ask him how he wants to handle it.

[charl]

Well, smoke grenades would probably be good against most vampires, and as for flashbangs, well... what most people don't realize is that flashbangs aren't really non-lethal, just less-lethal. They can and will kill if you are too close. Against vampires, they could possibly be even more harmful in some ways. It's fire after all, though based on magnesium and sulfur and stuff, but fire none the less, and the bright light could in some ways emulate sunlight. The danger is a flashbang could cause a frenzy, and that could be very, very, very bad in a combat situation.

Do you have to really enter the building yourselves? A good Molotov cocktail or other fire bomb could seriously harm vampires. Put some of those in there, and keep your distance, and pick off any survivors who make it out with long-range firearms. I don't know what your storyteller thinks about these things, but incendiary rounds are basically also on fire when they hit a target. And fire is a great way to kill vampires. Tracers could also work, because they are technically burning, though on human targets it isn't that noticeable. Vampires on the other hand... well, that's up to your storyteller.

Now, I don't know American laws, but incendiaries are banned by the Geneva treaty so without really good contacts they might be impossible to buy. Tracers might be available though (the military sure use them quite liberally), but on the other hands vampires in oWoD tend to have pretty good contacts.

EDIT: Grenades indoors are pretty safe. They are pretty much made for that use. The explosion isn't that powerful. What hurts is the fragments flying around, and a few small pieces of metal flying around isn't going bring down a load-bearing pillar in a building.

[Project_Mayhem]

@ bobspldbckwrds: Flash bangs sounds good. Smoke is likely to screw us up as well, and we need to be able to see if any new threats come in the room.

@Tengu_temp: Our ST runs it that you can still overload Vampire senses. Smoke blocks vision and smell, but not other senses.

@tyckspoon Very true - indeed our ST knows sod all about archetecture. A few sessions ago, she described a tower that seemed unlikely at best I'm pretty sure a much larger under ground room is no substitute for foundations. I'll tell her what I'm planning though and bring the point up.

@Charl Didn't know that about flash bangs. Should be useful. Frenzy should stop them using that bloody infernal magic of course.

The thing about entering the building is ... complex. First, chucking fire and explosives in probably won't kill Jupiter. He's holed up in the vault, and just that badass anyway. Seriously, this guy is the joint leader of the Sabbat in the UK. He's not gonna run out if the buildings on fire. Secondly, even if it did, we arent 'really' allowed to:

Spoiler

Show

OK - Jupiter has taken it on himself to destroy all the prominent antitribu in England. He's doing this by attacking them in their mind while they sleep, using some kind of funky ritual. Unfortunatly for us the two remaining targets are Vincent (our Lasombra), and another unpopular guy called Quinn. The problem is, someone powerful wants Quinn dead, and doesn't care about Vincent, so they are blocking a full assault by the Camerilla. The Tremere who have Jupiter holed up want to kill him, but are now being told they can't authorise a major strike because of potential losses, resources etc. However, this means a group of individuals with a vested interest (i.e. us) arent prevented from attacking. However, given the situation, its not made easy for us, and the local Prince has banned the building being destoyed or torched

tl;dr - no blowing the building up or setting fire to it.

secondly, we need to be seen to enter the building.

Spoiler

Show

Noone knows about our astral assassin. Officially, we have one person in astral form providing recon. However, we have actually managed to manipulate the other Sabbat warlord in Britain, Fredrique, to murder Jupiter. This is because he believes one of us to be possesed by his patron demon (I have no idea if he is right incidently. Evidence suggests maybe ) However, to astraly project in, he needs the wards down, which can only happen if the Tremere think someone is making an assault. We can't tell them, or anyone, about Fredrique, as we'd most likely be executed by association. So, it needs to look like one of us has killed him. Sending one person in alone would clearly be suicide, so we plan to go in and kill stuff until we hear that Jupiter is dead, or at least grieviously wounded. Afterwards we will claim that Quentin, the most powerful and prestigious member of our group, killed him in combat.

Basically. Complicated I know

[comicshorse]

It's been a while since I even read a WoD book, but wouldn't smoke and flashbangs work less efficiently against vampires

On the contrary, cut the lights first, Sabbat types put up Auspex which magnifys their senses. Then hit them with the flashbangs and watch as they drop from massive sensory overload

[Project_Mayhem]

On the contrary, cut the lights first, Sabbat types put up Auspex which magnifys their senses. Then hit them with the flashbangs and watch as they drop from massive sensory overload

This I like

[horseboy]

1st or 2nd oWoD? When they took out the base damage of weapons explosives became notoriously..................fickle. The Ass-bite drops a Willie Pete right on the foot of a Shadow Puppy and 0 net successes. The Malk's plaid beamer with the back set made entirely out of C-4 and the trunk filled with napalm, sets off a horrible chain reaction that wipes out the other cars in the parking lot. 30d10 and 0 successes against the Ghraul. It got so bad we stopped trying to blow stuff up. When you can make red necks not want to blow stuff up, that's an accomplishment.

[Krrth]

AS an aside, you need to be careful with the blueprints. If they're paranoid (and they should be), those blueprints might be wrong in lethal ways.

[NeoVid]

Grenade launchers indoors aren't likely to do you much good, as arming range for a shell from one of those is 25 feet. Indoors, you're probably going to hit a wall before it can go off.

Regular grenades can be excellent indoors if you have someone with good throwing accuracy. Bouncing nades into halls and doors you don't have a clear view of could be life-savers (or life-enders for the opposition.)