[3.5] Would this make Bards overpowered?

[Frosty]

I'm thinking of letting Bards act like Warmages and Beguilers in that they know all of the spells they have access to and they can spontaneously cast any spell they know as long as they still have spell slots of the appropriate level unused. Would this make the Bard better than the Beguiler and the Warmage?

[The Mormegil]

Still up to 6th level spells? Then no. Except if you extend it to Bard PrCs (like, say, Sublime Chord). But I don't think you would.

[woodenbandman]

I think that it would, a little bit. Here's why: Bards have to chose a focus for their spells. If they didn't have to, then they'd have incredible versatility and power.

Well, overpowered, probably not. Much more powerful, definitely yes. Definitely definitely yes.

Also, recall the divine bard adaptation. If you get domains with a divine bard and they know their list and it's at-will, then you get all kinds of shenanigans.

[Random NPC]

Wow... that would make them a better casters. More reliable and flexible

I think I might use this if my players want to be bards

[Frosty]

Right this is for pure bards only. By the way, can bards have active more than one Bardic Music at a time? Some Bardic Music like Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness, do not require Concentration and a Bard could Inspire Courage the first round and then activate Inspire Greatness in the next right? Would activating a second song cancel the first even if the first does not require a standard action to concentrate on?

[hamishspence]

how does it compare to the duskblade, which has access up to 5th level, a much shorter list of spells, and still has to learn them, like a sorcerer- no access to all spells on its list- only to the spells it knows?

if the bard list is comparable to cleric or sorcerer list- allowing free access might be a bit much. However, if the list is not easily abusable, might not be too big a jump in power.

[Frosty]

Bard spell list is a bit larger than the Beguiler list if we're only talking about the PHB. Add in the Spell Compendium, Complete Mage, etc and we're talking a pretty healthy spell list, but nowhere NEAR as many spells as cleric or sorcerer.

[hamishspence]

true- question is would "can spontaneously cast any bard spell" be overpowered, or is the full list absent anything that could be badly abused by combination of spontaneous, and full knowledge of all bard spells?

Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Healer, how many have both spontaneous, and full list access? And how big do their lists tend to be?

[Frosty]

true- question is would "can spontaneously cast any bard spell" be overpowered, or is the full list absent anything that could be badly abused by combination of spontaneous, and full knowledge of all bard spells?

Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Healer, how many have both spontaneous, and full list access? And how big do their lists tend to be?

Their spell lists would be smaller than the Bard list probably by a good 20%, but keep in mind that they also get 9th level spells, while Bards get 6th.

[Arbitrarity]

Right this is for pure bards only. By the way, can bards have active more than one Bardic Music at a time? Some Bardic Music like Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness, do not require Concentration and a Bard could Inspire Courage the first round and then activate Inspire Greatness in the next right? Would activating a second song cancel the first even if the first does not require a standard action to concentrate on?

I think you can't play two effects at once, but I can't find any support for this in the rules. All that a bard can't do is

Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word.

And you can bypass that with Melodic casting. So, actually, I see nothing that prevents a bard from maintaining more than 1 effect at once. At least, they last 5 rounds (10 with lingering song) past when you stop maintaining them.
That's bizarre.

[hamishspence]

Hexblades and spellthieves only have a list of up to 4th level- and they have to learn them, no full access. But then, they have other tricks.

I think closest counterpart is the duskblade- list goes up to 5th, not 6th, but is a better melee fighter.

Still, as far as I know, it wouldn't be a catastrophic jump in power.

[Frosty]

Hexblades and spellthieves only have a list of up to 4th level- and they have to learn them, no full access.

True, but Hexblade and Spellthief are also considered to be weak classes in need of fixing.

[Myrmex]

I don't think it would be that big a deal because a bard casts OR sings OR attacks, while the other caster-hybrid classes have more synergy between casting and doing something else (duskblade channels, beguiler gets bonus to DC and overcoming SR, warmage gets extra damage, etc).

It certainly would make bards much more attractive to play. I did a similar thing with assassin, which makes taking more levels in it worthwhile, as they have a very healthy spell list.

[Eldan]

You could do his spell lists like I do those of clerics and other divine casters: has access to those spells in the PH, and has to research others, and then exchange them for another one on his spelllist.

[Thurbane]

You could do his spell lists like I do those of clerics and other divine casters: has access to those spells in the PH, and has to research others, and then exchange them for another one on his spelllist.

I second this. Allowing bards spontaneous access to every Bard spell in every splatbook (SC, PHB II, CS, DM, BoED, etc etc) could be...problematic, if not overpowered.

Maybe if you allow Bards spontaneous access to each Bard spell in the PHB, you could allow them some kind of equivalent to the Advanced Learning class feature to get extra, non-core spells. But they may end up being even more limiting than the current rules.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

SpC Bard spells are very good. Spont access is probably too good, given the length of the list, but limiting them to just PHB+learned is probably weaker than their current level. I'd say maybe give them more spells known and let them swap a spell every level. Bard really isn't too underpowered with a good build. It's only when someone tries to go core-only or Jack-of-all-Trades that the Bard really gets pwned.

And yes, a Bard can sing one round, stop singing and let that song go on for another 5 rounds, and start another song in round 2. For example, a buffer Bard in combat will probably go: Inspire Courage+Item of IC(forgot the name) in the first round, Inspire Greatness+Inspirational Boost in the second round, maybe buff spell in the third. And then laugh maniacally because his party includes a Druid and a Malconvoker.

[Arros Winhadren]

Why not just choose some spells that are very-much Bard-like in flavor and allow those to be spontaneously casted, but keep other spells that are more general in the "memorized" category. You could flavor the spontaneous spells as arising from the bard's song, and the memorized spells as coming from their wizardly aspects.

[RTGoodman]

Eh, I think allowing all bard spells to be cast spontaneously is quite a bit too much.

My suggestion would be to just come up with a list of approved spells that make up an all-new "spontaneous Bard spell list," from which they can spontaneously cast, and then let them pick non-list Bard spells from anywhere as Advanced Learning spells. That way you can weed out anything problematic before-hand, though it would require more work on your part.

[Myrmex]

And yes, a Bard can sing one round, stop singing and let that song go on for another 5 rounds, and start another song in round 2. For example, a buffer Bard in combat will probably go: Inspire Courage+Item of IC(forgot the name) in the first round, Inspire Greatness+Inspirational Boost in the second round, maybe buff spell in the third. And then laugh maniacally because his party includes a Druid and a Malconvoker.

That's two rounds spent just buffing, though. By this time the rogue has likely gotten a full attack, and the fighter charged something hardcore, and the wizard probably disabled something, too. In any fight where the bard has to pop two songs AND cast spells, I don't think spontaneous casting would be that serious. At least of core spells. When it comes to SpC, then I would see power issues.

[Eldan]

Or you could do it like the spirit shaman: choose your spells known every morning from a list of all spells.

[LibraryOgre]

Something I ran across while playing a bard in NWN2 was that they allowed a bard to ALWAYS have an Inspire power on, like a Marshall Aura. They just have to pick which one.

However, I don't mind the "Don't need to pick" aspect; it would add a lot of versatility to bards, but their low spells per day would keep them from becoming powerhouses.

[bobspldbckwrds]

that might make the bard an appropriately powered caster, and we cant have that, can we?

[Saph]

The general rule is that the only classes that have full spontaneous access are the ones with a fixed spell list. Classes that get extra spells from splatbooks shouldn't get full spontaneous casting.

It could work, but you'd have to put some sort of cap on the spells known. A bard that could spontaneously cast all the bard spells from the PHB and all the bard spells from the SPC and all the bard spells from the PHB II and all the bard spells from Complete Mage and every other book as well would be a bit of a headache to keep track of.

- Saph

[Dragonsdoom]

Considering how debated one way and another this thread seems to be, perhaps it is correctly balanced, or close to it.

Sounds like it needs playtesting to me...

[Sendal]

There is another issue that arrises from giving a class a full splatbook including list that they can cast spontaneously from besides balance. Consider the following scenario:

Fighter: Help! we're being clobbered! can someone do something?
Bard: Maybe I know a spell that could help. Everyone help me find it.

*All players get out books*
*3 hours later*

Rogue: How about this one *Hands over splat book X*
Bard: Right! I cast that *Points at book*. We win.
Cleric: Great. Where are we again?

DM: Right pack up, home time.

This already occurs in some of the sessions I play in with the Wizard and cleric, but at least they can't do it in the middle of combat. Just to be clear, its not the "I Win" nature of magic that I obect to, thats sort of power for the course in 3.5. Its the endless searching for spells that the character knows, but the player doesn't.

[Thurbane]

Excellent point, Sendal. This occasionally happens with my group - and we're lucky to get in a 3 hour session at the best of times...time is our most precious RP commodity.

[BobVosh]

My DMs would drop a hammer if we even thought of taking that long for one round. Too bad ema's char sheets are gone, this would be perfect for em lol

[Frosty]

Well I'dhave the player have a complete spell list ready before every session.

[NeoVid]

The Bard, when played well, is already more useful than a Warmage and not that far behind a Beguiler. Giving the Bard spontaneous access to more spells wouldn't be gamebreaking, but access to too many definitely would.

Frankly, I think making sure your Bard player knows the class well is all you'd really need to make sure he's useful.

[Kantolin]

If you ask me, bard spells are potent enough without this. Enabling a blanket acceptance would make bards considerably more powerful indeed - as is, there's usually a spell on the bard's list that can solve a given problem, but the bard may or may not actually have said spell.

If you mean limiting bards to the PHB spells (but having all as spells known) while letting other classes have access to all spells, then it becomes a little trickier, especially as there are very nice noncore bard spells. Still, I'd still say this nudges bards a bit too fiercely forward - bards are already a very potent class as is.

I doubt it'd break D&D in half or something, but... well, it's quite a jump upwards.