The Nightmare Spinner: OP?

[Piedmon_Sama]

So, last night I was giving Complete Mage a thorough read-through for the first time, although I've owned it for a while. One Prestige Class jumped out at me as particularly cool, so I had to tell a friend about it. The Nightmare Spinner. Kind of a silly name, but using your enemy's nightmares against them? Sign me up!

Unfortunately when I told him about its ultimate ability, which is basically a Save or Die vs DC 10 + Class Level (I assumed it meant NS levels only) + Cha Mod, he declared it absolutely broken. Even when I told him using a Supernatural Ability (as this is) is a Full Round Action, he figured the "three times per day" thing means you can force someone to save vs death three times before they can do anything.

So he's like "so what stops you from just pumping Charisma until the DC is ridiculous, and then anyone without an awesome will save is screwed." And I'm like "well yes, that's the point, that's why it's their ultimate attack" and he's like "that's ridiculous, so I can make you save or die three times per day and there's nothing you can do about it?" Ignoring the fact it's an Illusionary Fear-Effect (and so won't work on certain creatures or characters), I'm trying to tell him D&D isn't fair and as his primary PC for the last few months has been a Cleric he ought to know this. T_T

Anyway, I'm right, right? There's nothing extraordinary about this class. It's got a fun gimmick, but there's nothing overpowering about it, right?

[Enlong]

Yeah, this isn't broken: it's only one point better then a 9th level spell's DC. (probably less, since you can cast spells more then 3 times a day)

You might as well talk about Wierd, Wail of the Banshee, Phantasmal Killer, etc.
"so what stops you from just pumping Charisma until the DC is ridiculous, and then anyone without an awesome will save is screwed."
That's rather the point of using save-or-die spells.

Yeah, it's unfair, but not any more unfair then similar spells already out there.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The class seems balanced. Yes, you get a SoD 3x per day, and a couple of bonus spells and spell-likes, but you lose a caster level in the process. Tell your friend the ability is essentially a free spell, and compare it to what other things a Sorc would have access to at that level.

[FinalJustice]

Yeah, you point him towards Avasculate, Destruction, Implosion and Feeblemind. That ought to do it.

[MammonAzrael]

Or, if you really want to convince him it isn't broken, show him some of the stuff his cleric could be doing at a comparative level. Show him Slay Living, which his cleric could cast a level earlier, and isn't fear or Mind-affecting. And they still take damage on a failed save. (And it's not even the best spell to use for your 5th level slots!)

Yes, when an ability refers to "Class Level" it mean your levels in the class that granted you that ability. If it meant your total level it would say "Character Level." So since Nightmare Spinner is a 5-level PrC, the DC for it's Deadly Nightmare will be 15 + your CHA modifier. The equivalent save for a 5th level spell. Not that devastating at later levels, and only decent when you get it, at level 10.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Thanks for the backup, guys. We argue about this sort of thing all the time and it's hilarious because neither of us have more than a basic conception of the rules (at the risk of sounding biased, mine is basic, his is tenuous >_> ). This would probably come up a lot less if I'd just knuckle down and acquaint myself with what spells become available when to Clerics and Wizards/Sorcerers, but I'm not willing to take the time to just sit down and read through lists and lists.

It says something, since any of my players could probably cheat like hell and be like "yeah it says I get this spell at this level" and I'd be like "okay w/e" but yeah.

[wadledo]

Nightmare Spinner is actually kinda underpowered, compared to a lot of the stuff wizards and sorcerers can get.

It is pretty decent though, but I wouldn't want to play it unless I was dedicated to a Fearful Sorcerer build.
And even then I could do a lot better.