Warblade with Gestalt

[josh13905]

I was wondering what class would be good to go with a gestalt warblade in Dnd 3.5.

I am currently going with a rogue with a level in barbarian on the non warblade side of gestalt, (Buti think i can switch it if i want we've played for one day) my warblade wields a rapier and a shield oh and the rapier is Supernal Clarity from Diamond Mind and i have in possesion the balde of the last citadael as backup thoughts?

High str decent dex and int and good con other scores are 8

[MammonAzrael]

Factotum or Psion. Psion has great synergy with Warblade, as does Factotum (which are just pure awesome).

[Draz74]

Hmm, I was also going to say Factotum or Psion. But now I will try to come up with some other ideas ...

A 3-level Swashbuckler dip is tempting.

Incarnate or Totemist could be very interesting. Incarnate if you want to make your character more flexible, especially out of combat. Totemist if you're trying to make him even more of a melee monster.

[Eldariel]

Wizard and Archivist are both great options, Archivist probably more so due to the fact that divine buff suite is more versatile than its arcane counterpart. That said, either would work fine. Max Knowledges, get Knowledge Devotion (and Holy Warrior if going Archivist), profit.

Archivist could even dip Sacred Exorcist for turning, Contemplative for a domain and enter Ordained Champion (with Archivist-levels on the other side to make up for the lost CLs) or so. Heck, you could enter Ruby Knight Vindicator and just forget the fact that it advances your casting and get all the other juicies instead.


Yea, I'll suggest Archivist. Although Factotum for that extra strike per turn and all kinds of awesome, or Psion for psionic buffs isn't amiss either.

[Temp.]

+1 for Archivist.

Righteous Might, reduced Bite of the Were__ levels, Paladin and Ranger spells at Wizard-rate advancement, some alright buffs as class abilities (combine with Knowledge Devotion and Eternal Blade for maximum Knowledge goodness) and a solid skill advancement if you PrC out on the Warblade side... it's pretty solid all around.

Also, this is one of the few uses I've found for the Lurk class. Its whole schtick is using Swift actions to buff a single melee attack per round with extra damage and effects. The Warblade's schtick is maneuvers -- typically melee attacks that can be used once per round.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, the key to successful Gestalting is to minimize overlap and maximize synergy.

So, let's look at what the Warblade has:

d12 HD and full BAB. All melee martial weapon proficencies and armor proficencies. Good Fort Save.

What are it's important stats: Str, Con, and Int. Dex... not so much, normally. They're not as built for finesse-fighting as wading in and killing stuff. Decent Int synergy with several key abilities.

What does it NOT have:

It only has 4+Int mod skill points, and a fairly poor skill selection. It also has poor Reflex and Will saves (although it gets Int bonus to Reflex save when not flat-footed). Other than it's maneuvers, it has little utility.

So, you want something that does well with skill points, utility, or other abilities, with some Int synergy, that has good will or reflex saves.

Rogue certainly fits the bill here. It's d6 HD is obviated by the Warblade's d12 HD, and the gestalt also takes the Warblade's full BAB rather than the Rogue's 3/4. It brings additional damage to the table (if you take Clarion Call tactical White Raven feat, you can make a DC20 Intimidate check to declare an opponent Flanked so you get sneak attack dice), double the skill points with a HUGE skill selection, and Trapfinding.

With these two classes, you are able to be both the Party Tank, and the Skillmonkey. You can fill the flavor of 'swashbuckler' without needing to take the class itself. Furthermore, you have nice Int synergy: Rogues always want Int for their skill points, plus you now get your Int to your Reflex save... but you get the Rogue's good reflex save! If you are careful about staying in Light armor, you even get Evasion to go along with it, making you immune to 90% of the Evocation college.

It gets better. One of the first-level Diamond Mind maneuvers is a Counter that lets you take a Concentration check in place of a Will save. Now combine that with Slippery Mind that gives you a second Will Save if you failed the first one. This means you are almost never going to fail a Will save, even if it IS a 'poor' save.

So yes, Rogue is a very powerful class to combo with Warblade.

Now, let us look at some other choices.

Wizard/Archivist. So that Int synergy we were talking about earlier? Yea... it's also now a casting stat. Warblade/Wizard (particularly if you go Batman) is quite possibly one of the most broken combos I have ever heard of.

Warlock. I know, not the first choice, it brings in another stat (Charisma for save DC), and doesn't seem to add much. Until you get Eldritch Glaive, which you can use with every maneuver in the ToB book. You make the <gem> Nightmare Blade maneuvers obsolete because it is already a touch attack. For this alone, it makes this combo deadly. It also brings a good Will save to the table. It also brings ranged damage to the table with the Blast, for when you cannot reach your opponent.

Bard. No, seriously, this is almost as broke as the Wizard. White Raven Song = Win. Heck, Bard4/Warblade16 is a nasty build all by itself. Make it Gestalt, and you have a vicious character, who can still pull off the whole Swashbuckler appeal, brings both Will AND Reflex saves to the table, and the ability to buff the party while you charge into combat.

[MammonAzrael]

Warlock. I know, not the first choice, it brings in another stat (Charisma for save DC), and doesn't seem to add much. Until you get Eldritch Glaive, which you can use with every maneuver in the ToB book. You make the <gem> Nightmare Blade maneuvers obsolete because it is already a touch attack.

While most of what Shneekey is on the money, I'm afraid this isn't. Eldritch Glaive requires a Fullround Action to use, and thus can't be used with Strikes (though Boosts can still apply to it).

Also, the [GEM] Nightmare Blade maneuvers multiple damage. You were thinking of Emerald Razor for the touch attack maneuver.

EDIT: And if you do go Rogue, I'd suggest focusing on TWF with Tiger Claw maneuvers, and picking up two levels in the Tiger Claw Master PrC to completely eliminate the TWF penalty to attacks. You could do disturbingly large amounts of damage.

[Draz74]

It gets better. One of the first-level Diamond Mind maneuvers is a Counter that lets you take a Concentration check in place of a Will save. Now combine that with Slippery Mind that gives you a second Will Save if you failed the first one. This means you are almost never going to fail a Will save, even if it IS a 'poor' save.

Slippery Mind doesn't help all that much, since it wouldn't keep the Moment of Perfect Mind bonus. And it's only useful against a specific few Will saves (the same kinds that are totally blocked by Protection from Evil). Moment of Perfect Mind is indeed an awesome hedge for bad will saves, but only if you constantly use one of your precious, precious few Maneuvers Readied on it. And it isn't dependent on being a Rogue in the slightest.

So yes, Rogue is a very powerful class to combo with Warblade.

Yeah, it's ... pretty good. Especially if you're a Tiger Claw specialist, using maneuvers to make TWF super sweet in order to deliver more Sneak Attacks. Still not the best combo IMHO.

Warlock. I know, not the first choice, it brings in another stat (Charisma for save DC), and doesn't seem to add much. Until you get Eldritch Glaive, which you can use with every maneuver in the ToB book. You make the <gem> Nightmare Blade maneuvers the Emerald Razor maneuver obsolete because it is already a touch attack. For this alone, it makes this combo deadly. It also brings a good Will save to the table. It also brings ranged damage to the table with the Blast, for when you cannot reach your opponent.

Fixed for you (Nightmare Blade has nothing to do with Touch AC). Otherwise, this is actually a pretty nifty possibility. A Warblade with a reach weapon that targets Touch AC and deals 5d6 base damage is a pretty freakin' scary idea.

Bard. No, seriously, this is almost as broke as the Wizard. White Raven Song = Win. Heck, Bard4/Warblade16 is a nasty build all by itself. Make it Gestalt, and you have a vicious character, who can still pull off the whole Swashbuckler appeal, brings both Will AND Reflex saves to the table, and the ability to buff the party while you charge into combat.

Warblade//Bard can be a great combo, but not for this OP. He has 8 Charisma on his character.

[Darth Stabber]

Swordsage (more Maneuvers) rogue (SA and more skills), Favored soul(get a buff+healing suite, and favor all saves), Binder(versatility), Incarnate(like binder but more piecemeal), Totemist(more combat focused version of the former), Barbarian(Rage, DR, Other random specials like speed) Psion{egoist}(same as favored soul only without all saves favored, and a few direct offensive powers), and Psychic warrior(trade some psypower for Bonus feats), Dread Necro/Warmage/Beguiler/Duskblade(arcane spell casting, in armor, with side benefits, who doesn't want to be a melee focused lich)

Best(most synergistic) bet
Favored soul - already more martially focused than cleric, and what you really want from the class is buffs and healing, and you can easily get your moneys worth with the spells you get.

Your cha doesn't really matter, because you are not after offensive spells making save dc a moot point.

Oh, and favors all saves, it's just beautiful.

[Satyr]

I always chose Gestalt components for flavor, and not power reasons, so my advice may not be the most helpful for creating the most broken combination. I found that creating powerful yet dull characters offers little attraction, so I normally focus on interesting characters.

Ask yourself what your character should be feel and look like. Do you want to have some kind of Bandit or Thug background, or perhaps the flair of a paid swordsman/assassin/bodyguard for a large criminal empire? Then Warblade/Rogue.

Are you more interested in a wandering Swordsman thriving for the perfection of his Art? Or a whirling fighter emphasizing mobility? Than try the Scout. Not as powerful as the Rogue, but as the wilder variant, it has a very different flavor.

The Barbarian variant is not that bad, either, even though it does not offer that much synergy effects. But playing the big bad Berserker is always fun.


I would advice against a spellcasting class, though. While this is certainly a powerful combination, as it is somewhat complicated to come up with a plausible concept for such a combination that does not sound ridiculous.

[Eldariel]

I would advice against a spellcasting class, though. While this is certainly a powerful combination, as it is somewhat complicated to come up with a plausible concept for such a combination that does not sound ridiculous.

Why? It's just a gish without the multiclassing part. That's what Gestalt was originally designed for; to represent concepts like Mystic Theurge without need for multiclassing. One side represents your training in spellcasting and the other side your martial practice.

You aren't as good at either as a focused practicer (someone who takes casting/martial abilities/whatever on both sides), but you're very able to use your magic to improve upon your martial ability and your martial ability to protect yourself and defeat opponents with high resistance to spells.

[MammonAzrael]

I would advice against a spellcasting class, though. While this is certainly a powerful combination, as it is somewhat complicated to come up with a plausible concept for such a combination that does not sound ridiculous.

It's a Duskblade. A really, really, really good Duskblade.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Slippery Mind doesn't help all that much, since it wouldn't keep the Moment of Perfect Mind bonus. And it's only useful against a specific few Will saves (the same kinds that are totally blocked by Protection from Evil). Moment of Perfect Mind is indeed an awesome hedge for bad will saves, but only if you constantly use one of your precious, precious few Maneuvers Readied on it. And it isn't dependent on being a Rogue in the slightest.

Really?

Slippery Mind (Ex)

This ability represents the rogue’s ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.

So basically, even if you screw up your Concentration check, you get to make it AGAIN the next round. Why? Because you're probably going to attack, which means recovering all maneuvers spent, including Moment of Perfect Mind. So basically you get to replace a will save with a concentration check (which has the added benefit of NOT FAILING ON A NAT 1), then even if you do screw it up, you get another shot at it next turn.

It's not that it gives you a bonus on your save, it is that it replaces your save with a concentration check... then you get to do it again if you screwed up the first time.

Yeah, it's ... pretty good. Especially if you're a Tiger Claw specialist, using maneuvers to make TWF super sweet in order to deliver more Sneak Attacks. Still not the best combo IMHO.

I will agree that Tiger Claw and TWF really make the best out of the precision-based damage, however even without that you still have extra damage (pretty much guaranteed extra damage with the ability to UMD wands of golembane/gravebane/greenbane and Clarion Call). Even without Tiger Claw optimization (and I agree, with Bloodclaw Master and Xing Mongoose, you can probably dish out over a hundred d6 of extra sneak-attack damage), it's still pretty sick.

Fixed for you (Nightmare Blade has nothing to do with Touch AC). Otherwise, this is actually a pretty nifty possibility. A Warblade with a reach weapon that targets Touch AC and deals 5d6 base damage is a pretty freakin' scary idea.

Ahh, you're right, Sapphire Nightmare Blade is Flat-Foot, not Touch Attack... now combine the two on a full power attack...

Warblade//Bard can be a great combo, but not for this OP. He has 8 Charisma on his character.

[/quote] Spells are almost irrelevant, it's the bardic music and the saves out of Bard that he wants. However, your point is taken, it is vastly less useful with a Cha of 8.

[Douglas]

Because you're probably going to attack, which means recovering all maneuvers spent, including Moment of Perfect Mind.

Not unless you're at least 15th level and are using Stance of Alacrity. Warblade maneuver recovery requires spending a swift action in addition to the attack, and you would have already spent that swift action on Moment of Perfect Mind.

Ahh, you're right, Sapphire Nightmare Blade is Flat-Foot, not Touch Attack... now combine the two on a full power attack...

Not possible. They are both strikes.

[MammonAzrael]

Not unless you're at least 15th level and are using Stance of Alacrity. Warblade maneuver recovery requires spending a swift action in addition to the attack, and you would have already spent that swift action on Moment of Perfect Mind.

I could have sworn Warblades had a way to refresh maneuvers without spending a Swift Action...regardless you could just refresh it with Adaptive Style.

Not possible. They are both strikes.

I think he is referring to combining Sapphire Nightmare Blade with the touch attack of the Eldritch Glaive (which unfortunately won't work either, since it's a Full-round action to use).

[Satyr]

That's what Gestalt was originally designed for; to represent concepts like Mystic Theurge without need for multiclassing.

I would argue that the great merit of gestalt rules is that the additional layer of the character, more multi-dimensional and therefore round and interesting characters can be created to leave the stereotypical clichés of the class system behind .

It's a Duskblade. A really, really, really good Duskblade.

That would be one explanation, but it still doesn't work well with the Archivist - the perfect swordmaster of the Great Library is not really an enthralling concept (okay, actually it is. I give up).

[KevLar]

Personally, I've enjoyed very much a Warblade // Factotum 3 / Feat Rogue X. Tons of skills (I love skills), brains over brawn, evasion and other rogue goodies, two good saves, full BAB, lots and lots of feats for a tactical warrior with many tricks up his sleeve.

Other possible dips for the same concept are Unarmed Swordsage (for a nice selection of maneuvers from other schools, and because you never know when you'll find yourself without a weapon), Barbarian (though I'm having a hard time imagining anyone raging with rapier and shield ) and, if you have reach somehow, definitely Crusader for Thicket of Blades.

That's pretty much my definition of a brainy warrior. :)

[Eldariel]

I would argue that the great merit of gestalt rules is that the additional layer of the character, more multi-dimensional and therefore round and interesting characters can be created to leave the stereotypical clichés of the class system behind .

I'm just going by the examples in Unearthed Arcana (which specifically spell out that if you wanna be a Mystic Theurge, you take Cleric on one side and Wizard on the other without multiclassing - that the system is best suited for representing such concepts). I feel you can generally use multiclassing and ACFs to represent the specific type of character you want already with only one class. Although of course you can reinforce it.

That would be one explanation, but it still doesn't work well with the Archivist - the perfect swordmaster of the Great Library is not really an enthralling concept (okay, actually it is. I give up).

Archivist is just a divine wizard. He doesn't need to be a seeker of knowledge. Maybe he studies all manners of divine spells that can enhance his combat prowess. Indeed, he could be a Paladin of sorts. A Paladin of a god of knowledge, for example. Holy warrior bestown his martial prowess by his divinity to further whatever agendas the god has; in this case, for example, pursuit of knowledge. Combat prowess is certainly needed in the forgotten sources he has to scour.