Gestalt build Help

[Darth Stabber]

Thinking of trying gestalt and I need 5 class lvls on one side to finish the build

So far
Human NE(Extreme self interest, and cruelty, but not to party disrupting levels)
side one
Fighter4, Ranger1, Dread commando5, Duelist10
side two
Rogue5, assassin10, ????5

I had originally thought shadow dancer, but it would be remarkably redundant.

Current thoughts
Umbral Diciple, Totemist, rogue, or scout.

Ideas???

[Nohwl]

i dont think you can take 2 prestige classes at once in gestalt.

[kamikasei]

i dont think you can take 2 prestige classes at once in gestalt.

Indeed, you can't. You might consider replacing Assassin 10/X 5 with Beguiler 15 to give you useful casting and keep your skills up without taking too much away from your melee ability.

[Darth Stabber]

I'm Actually not all that interested in spell casting, The sneak attack dice and death attack were what i was after from assassin, If they had a non-magical assassin base class i would take it instead. So I'm thinking that need to replace duelist on the other side

So some thing more like this maybe?
Human LE
Ranger11/Fighter4/DreadCommando5
Rogue5/assassin10/rogue5

It gives me 10d6 sneak attack, 3d6 sudden strike, death attack, the assassin spell list (which really has all i really want on it, there isn't a whole lot else. All I really wanted was Greater invisibility, and Blades of Blood)

Though if i am asking for help i should give the helping parties the concept.

Concept:

Spoiler

Show

-The only difference between him and a serial killer is that he gets paid.
-Actually a loyal, friendly, and dependable individual, he just get his kicks croaking people
-Day job/cover is as an elite special ops trooper.
-expert tracker and cunning warrior, prefers attacking from cover, but will mix it up the old fashioned way if needs be.

Thoughts

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Drop a level of Rogue in favor of Swordsage 1. It gives you an aditional 2d6 SA and a few special abilities and maneuvers that make TWF even better. I'd also drop Assassin 10 in favor of something else. Maybe a PrC that advances SA at 1 or another SS level.

[monty]

Drop a level of Rogue in favor of Swordsage 1. It gives you an aditional 2d6 SA and a few special abilities and maneuvers that make TWF even better. I'd also drop Assassin 10 in favor of something else. Maybe a PrC that advances SA at 1 or another SS level.

Make sure to take the swordsage level at or after level 9, since the stance in question is third level.

[Keld Denar]

Except that regardless of your IL, you can only ever take 1st level stances with SS1, Cru1, or War1. Thus, you are limited to either Child of Shadows or Island of Blades if you stick to Shadow Hand (for use of the Shadow Blade feat) or maybe Blood in the Water for a more crit friendly build. Then, you could take a 2nd level of Swordsage to pick up Assassin's Stance at level 9, or take the Martial Stance feat (requires Martial Study) at level 9 assuming that you took SS1 somewhere before level 9.

Actually, I'd highly recommend more SS EVERYWHERE.

Consider Rogue5/Assassin10/Rogue+5//Swordsage20

Lots of stuff in Shadow Hand synergizes well with Assassin, such as Cloak of Deception, or Shadow Garote. Plus, you get access to Diamond Mind, which provides some very powerful mental protection (and fits the passionless trained killer motif) and Tiger Claw which gives some mobility so you can execute the whole death from above Death Attack. Only problem is that you are a little MAD, with Dex, Con, Int, and Wisdom, although you MIGHT be able to con your DM into allowing something like the Carmendine Monk feat to shift your SS abilities over to int from wisdom. If you really want to be badass, take the Unarmed Swordsage adaption for the ability to kill people with your little finger.

[Darth Stabber]

So more to the tune of
Ranger11/Fighter4/Dread Commando5//
Rogue5/Assassin9/Swordsage1/rogue5

Leaving me with 9d6SA, 3d6Sudden Strike, 1 lvl of maneuvers, Improved Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge. I don't like cutting another lvl of rogue, because then I can't get improved evasion, but if I were pressed to I would cut the swordsage lvl as well and add 2 lvls of totemist, Giving me the ability to bind Kruthik claws to my totem chakra(+4competence to Hide and MS +2more per essentia, Bound to totem: 2 1d6 claw attacks with 1d4 acid per invested essentia). Or take another Swordsage lvl for more maneuvery goodness

[Keld Denar]

Why so much Ranger? All you are getting from that is combat style + a little bit of spell casting. Just take the Combat Style feats on your own and take more levels of a class that actually gives you features.

Plus, Improved Evasion is bad. Yea, it looks good on paper, until you realize that with strong ref save progression and dex prioritization, you'll almost never fail a reflex save, meaning normal evasion is plenty good enough. There are better rogue abilities like Crippling Strike and Skill Mastery, that I would never get Improved Evasion. Plus, if you do keep all those Ranger levels, you get Evasion from Rog2 and Evasion again from Rng8, which, IIRC, adding Evasion to Evasion nets you Improved Evasion. I might be wrong on that, but I don't think I am.

What don't you like about Rogue5/Assassin10/Rogue5//Swordsage20? Maneuvers, especially high level ones, are more powerful than anything you'd get from Dread Commando, Totemist, or anything else. Heck, you can go Ethereal, which allows you to walk right through walls up to 10' thick! Plus, in the end, you can get Time Stands Still, which allows you to make 2 full attacks in a round, which, while TWFing gives you an extra 7ish attacks each with full Sneak Attack. Its really really good, much better than all those wasted Ranger and whatnot levels.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here's a suggested build for you that does what you want it to do while retaining full BAB

Ranger11/Fighter4/Dread Commando 5//Rogue1/Swordsage1/Rogue4/Assassin5/Swordsage1/Bloodclaw Master2/Rogue6

For a total of: Ranger11/Fighter4/Dread Commando 5//Rogue11/Assassin5/Swordsage2/Bloodclaw Master2
You get the following maneuvers and stances:

1st level of Swordsage (at character level 2): Emerald Razor Strike (target is flat-footed for the attack), 3 Tiger Claw Maneuvers, Island of Blades (Stance, lets you flank much easier)
2nd level of Swordsage (at character level 11): Pouncing Strike and Assassin's Stance

In short: 9d6 sneak attack, 3d6 sudden strike, POUNCE (full attack on charge, that means you get your full round of all attacks with both weapons, including all precision-based damage on every attack), with the option to either do 11d6 sneak attack OR only do 9d6 sneak attack, but you can flank with allies that are adjacent to the opponent you are adjacent to without needing proper flanking.

This will MASSIVELY increase your ability to apply sneak attack damage, and will allow you to One-Hit-Kill most critters you run up against. You still get Rogue11 for Improved Evasion (although I'd get Skill Mastery so you can Take 10 on UMD to activate Wands of Golembane/Gravebane which are in Wand Sheathes in your two weapons so you can apply all precision-based damage to almost anything you encounter).

[monty]

Except that regardless of your IL, you can only ever take 1st level stances with SS1, Cru1, or War1. Thus, you are limited to either Child of Shadows or Island of Blades if you stick to Shadow Hand (for use of the Shadow Blade feat) or maybe Blood in the Water for a more crit friendly build. Then, you could take a 2nd level of Swordsage to pick up Assassin's Stance at level 9, or take the Martial Stance feat (requires Martial Study) at level 9 assuming that you took SS1 somewhere before level 9.

Where does it say that? As far as I can tell, the only requirements for Assassin's Stance are IL 5 and one Shadow Hand maneuver, which should be easy enough as a swordsage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why so much Ranger? All you are getting from that is combat style + a little bit of spell casting. Just take the Combat Style feats on your own and take more levels of a class that actually gives you features.

Plus, Improved Evasion is bad. Yea, it looks good on paper, until you realize that with strong ref save progression and dex prioritization, you'll almost never fail a reflex save, meaning normal evasion is plenty good enough. There are better rogue abilities like Crippling Strike and Skill Mastery, that I would never get Improved Evasion. Plus, if you do keep all those Ranger levels, you get Evasion from Rog2 and Evasion again from Rng8, which, IIRC, adding Evasion to Evasion nets you Improved Evasion. I might be wrong on that, but I don't think I am.

What don't you like about Rogue5/Assassin10/Rogue5//Swordsage20? Maneuvers, especially high level ones, are more powerful than anything you'd get from Dread Commando, Totemist, or anything else. Heck, you can go Ethereal, which allows you to walk right through walls up to 10' thick! Plus, in the end, you can get Time Stands Still, which allows you to make 2 full attacks in a round, which, while TWFing gives you an extra 7ish attacks each with full Sneak Attack. Its really really good, much better than all those wasted Ranger and whatnot levels.

You can also use Rabid Mongoose for an extra four attacks on top of Time Stands Still (since Rabid Mongoose Strike is a BOOST) for an extra four attacks (eight if your GM allows you to interpret Time Stands Still as 'two full turns worth of attacks' to include another swift action for another boost).

This build does NOT get, however, the +16 BAB for the extra iterative attack.

With judicious use of full BAB classes, you could see this as your attack progression:

7 attacks (full TWF chain with at least +16 BAB) base, plus 4 for Rabid Mongoose for a total of 11 attacks in a round, which doubles to 22 attacks a round with Time Stands Still. Each one with 11d6 sneak attack. This does over 200d6 JUST in the precision damage... and even better, you can use Pouncing Strike to charge and make a full attack of sneak attacks on the surprise round, easily killing opponents with 77d6 damage, again just in precision-based damage. You can also get Shadow Blade to add your dex to damage on every shot.

[Keld Denar]

Where does it say that? As far as I can tell, the only requirements for Assassin's Stance are IL 5 and one Shadow Hand maneuver, which should be easy enough as a swordsage.

For Crusaders, its on Page 10, left hand column, first sentance of Stances Known:.

For Swordsages, its on Page 16, left column, first sentance of Stances Known:.

For Warblades, its on Page 22, left column, first sentance of Stances Known:.

Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you. At 2nd, 5th, 9th, 14th, and 20th level, you can choose additional stances.<snip>

EDIT:

This build does NOT get, however, the +16 BAB for the extra iterative attack.

Gah, thats what I get for not consulting books. I was thinking Assassin was full BAB. Further review shows that it doesn't. Thus, you'd finish with 15/20 BAB. If you did something more like Rogue4/Swashbuckler16//Swordsage20 with Daring Outlaw and you could get Carmendine Monk to swap over to Int focus, you'd have a pretty strong beater with 19/20 BAB, Int to dmg, and AC, full level 20 SA. You'd lose out on your Assassin spells and Death Attack, but most of that would be replicated with Swordsage abilities anyway.

[Eldariel]

(although I'd get Skill Mastery so you can Take 10 on UMD to activate Wands of Golembane/Gravebane which are in Wand Sheathes in your two weapons so you can apply all precision-based damage to almost anything you encounter).

I recall you can't take Skill Mastery on Use Magic Device (that is, the Rogue class feature wouldn't apply; of course classes like Artificer and Warlock specifically get the ability to take 10 on UMD). Something to do with the inability to Take 10 with that skill. I could be wrong though; I can't seem to find the source for this.


Anyways, for the character, I suggest some PrC that advances Death Attack further. For example, Monk of the Long Death [PGtF] gains Death Attack on 6 and stacks with Assassin (it's otherwise mediocre though). Lists of Stuff has listing of classes that grant Death Attack.

And I think Swordsage on the other side is the best alternative; the Tiger Claw/Shadow Hand/Diamond Mind really help the whole "hit hide and hard from darkness and get away once the target is dead". And as has been said, you get two points of Sneak Attack from the whole deal in addition to all the other goodies.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I recall you can't take Skill Mastery on Use Magic Device (that is, the Rogue class feature wouldn't apply; of course classes like Artificer and Warlock specifically get the ability to take 10 on UMD). Something to do with the inability to Take 10 with that skill. I could be wrong though; I can't seem to find the source for this.

Skill Mastery

The rogue becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.

Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time.

I see nothing that makes a distinction on prohibiting UMD for Skill Mastery.

Anyways, for the character, I suggest some PrC that advances Death Attack further. For example, Monk of the Long Death [PGtF] gains Death Attack on 6 and stacks with Assassin (it's otherwise mediocre though). Lists of Stuff has listing of classes that grant Death Attack.

I disagree. Death Attack is sub-par at best. Best to continue increasing sneak attack and finding more ways to apply it. You don't have a (pathetically easy) DC check to ignore Sneak Attack damage.

And I think Swordsage on the other side is the best alternative; the Tiger Claw/Shadow Hand/Diamond Mind really help the whole "hit hide and hard from darkness and get away once the target is dead". And as has been said, you get two points of Sneak Attack from the whole deal in addition to all the other goodies.

Again, I respectfully disagree. Swordsage doesn't have full BAB, which you really want in a melee heavy build. Use Swordsage dips to get the useful stuff, and mostly leave it alone.

[Eldariel]

I disagree. Death Attack is sub-par at best. Best to continue increasing sneak attack and finding more ways to apply it. You don't have a (pathetically easy) DC check to ignore Sneak Attack damage.

Mostly my point was that if Death Attack is an ability he wants to focus on, it helps to finish the progression rather than to stop it at 15. If not, of course, it opens up a bunch of mechanically stronger effects (mostly Sneak Attack to replicate the one-hit-kill), but it does sound like he specifically wants DA.

Again, I respectfully disagree. Swordsage doesn't have full BAB, which you really want in a melee heavy build. Use Swordsage dips to get the useful stuff, and mostly leave it alone.

Meh, depending on the level, the difference can be rather minor. Anyways, going straight SS would get him earlier access to maneuvers (huge difference if he has to start playing without them) and higher level maneuvers are also fairly awesome. Full BAB can of course be helpful, but really, the difference is only major around the level breaks where you'd get new attacks.

[Douglas]

I disagree. Death Attack is sub-par at best. Best to continue increasing sneak attack and finding more ways to apply it. You don't have a (pathetically easy) DC check to ignore Sneak Attack damage.

The save only negates the paralysis/death effect, not the extra damage.

[Darth Stabber]

Okay, lets pretend that tome of battle doesn't exist.
Ranger11/Fighter4/Dread Commando5
Rogue5/Assassin9/Monk6

I don't really want to play a martial adept, I could possibly stand the dip, but all in all I would rather avoid it than exploit it (If i really wanted to play a Tome of Battle character I would go play 4E).

Note:
Uncanny dodge + uncanny dodge = improved uncanny dodge(as per SRD RAW)
Evasion + evasion /= improved evasion (as per SRD RAW)

Explanations
Ranger - Free twf feats, Swift tracker(I plan on tracking things), Woodland stride(I plan on tracking things through the woods), and favored enemy (things i can't SA)
Rogue - I concede the point on not needing imp evasion
Dread commando - Initiative buff for the whole team, full bab, sudden strike, and armor penalty reductions, just too good.
Fighter - 4 lvls = bigger hit die, and 3 feats.
Assassin - Death attack, sneak attack, poison use, and hide in plain sight.
Monk - Sounds stupid but: Speed, Unarmed attacks, Extra attacks(at only a -1 penalty), unarmored AC, and saves(my will save is abysmal, and still mind helps extra) at the cost of two feats (1 to make daggers a monk weapon, and one to base my monk abilities on INT)

[Keld Denar]

So wait...you want monk for unarmored AC, but you want Dread Commando for the ability to stealth in armor? Thats kinda a little...contradictory. Unless you plan to get captured a lot, or otherwise denied access to your equipment, that seems a little counter intuative.

Plus, you end up very MAD, unless you take a feat like Carmendine Monk or Kung-Fu Genious to switch your monk abilities over to Int.

[Darth Stabber]

Kung-fu genius is part of the plan as is another feat that makes a weapon a monk weapon(don't know the name but it's in dragon compendium). And I have had some sadistic gm's, and if you are undercover, armor sticks out, so i have something to fall back on. Plus I know alot of GMs that will play the capture angle for all it is worth.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, lets pretend that tome of battle doesn't exist.
Ranger11/Fighter4/Dread Commando5
Rogue5/Assassin9/Monk6

I don't really want to play a martial adept, I could possibly stand the dip, but all in all I would rather avoid it than exploit it (If i really wanted to play a Tome of Battle character I would go play 4E).

Note:
Uncanny dodge + uncanny dodge = improved uncanny dodge(as per SRD RAW)
Evasion + evasion /= improved evasion (as per SRD RAW)

Explanations
Ranger - Free twf feats, Swift tracker(I plan on tracking things), Woodland stride(I plan on tracking things through the woods), and favored enemy (things i can't SA)
Rogue - I concede the point on not needing imp evasion
Dread commando - Initiative buff for the whole team, full bab, sudden strike, and armor penalty reductions, just too good.
Fighter - 4 lvls = bigger hit die, and 3 feats.
Assassin - Death attack, sneak attack, poison use, and hide in plain sight.
Monk - Sounds stupid but: Speed, Unarmed attacks, Extra attacks(at only a -1 penalty), unarmored AC, and saves(my will save is abysmal, and still mind helps extra) at the cost of two feats (1 to make daggers a monk weapon, and one to base my monk abilities on INT)

Check out my build again... only a two-level dip in Swordsage. The primary reason for this is to obtain Pounce, Dex to damage, and Bloodclaw Master for better TWFing, although Emerald Razor is good for declaring an opponent flat-footed for an attack guaranteed to give you sneak attack damage. Another lets you use a Concentration check in place of a save, which is invaluable to you.

Monk sucks. Seriously, it stinks on ice. All of the features you mentioned go away the moment you put armor on. Best way to capture a monk? Slap a suit of armor on him... and watch him power down. You already GET all good saves for most of the levels because you take the better of the two class's saves per level. Get a buddy to Mind Blank you and Will saves are mostly irrelevant anyways.

[Keld Denar]

Kung-fu genius is part of the plan as is another feat that makes a weapon a monk weapon(don't know the name but it's in dragon compendium). And I have had some sadistic gm's, and if you are undercover, armor sticks out, so i have something to fall back on. Plus I know alot of GMs that will play the capture angle for all it is worth.

Glamored armor looks like street clothes. Addon cost of like 1200 g to any armor. Between that and Dread Commando, the only way someone could detect your armor would be True Sight or actually touching you.

And the feat you are looking for is called Unorthadox Flurry.

And Shneekey, Emerald Razor doesn't do what you think it does. ER allows you to make an attack as a touch attack. I think you are thinking of Diamond Nightmare Blade, or whichever is the lowest level of the [Gem] Nightmare Blade maneuvers. Only the lowest level one makes a foe flat footed, and only AFTER it his, but before your next turn. Thus, a solo rogue couldn't use it to get SA himself without something like a Belt of Battle.

[monty]

I see nothing that makes a distinction on prohibiting UMD for Skill Mastery.

Because you're looking at the wrong page.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm:

Special
You cannot take 10 with this skill.

Nothing in the Skill Mastery description changes that. It only removes the requirement that you can't be distracted or threatened.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Glamored armor looks like street clothes. Addon cost of like 1200 g to any armor. Between that and Dread Commando, the only way someone could detect your armor would be True Sight or actually touching you.

And the feat you are looking for is called Unorthadox Flurry.

And Shneekey, Emerald Razor doesn't do what you think it does. ER allows you to make an attack as a touch attack. I think you are thinking of Diamond Nightmare Blade, or whichever is the lowest level of the [Gem] Nightmare Blade maneuvers. Only the lowest level one makes a foe flat footed, and only AFTER it his, but before your next turn. Thus, a solo rogue couldn't use it to get SA himself without something like a Belt of Battle.

You got me on one, but not on the other. Sapphire Nightmare Blade is the one I was thinking of, and it specifies "The target is considered flat-footed against this attack", and it also does an extra 1d6 damage. Page 65 in ToB

[Keld Denar]

You got me on one, but not on the other.

So, you saved for 1/2 thread damage...

:P

Yea, I'm thinkin I was also thinkin of the White Raven strike that hits an opponent so hard it knocks them flat footed for the rest of the round. Thats probably what I was thinkin and the same time.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So, you saved for 1/2 thread damage...

:P

I really need to level up so I can get Thread Evasion to negate all thread damage done on a sucessful save...

[Keld Denar]

I really need to level up so I can get Thread Evasion to negate all thread damage done on a sucessful save...

Meh, thread evasion is good, but I'm taking that level of Mindbender first. Being able to read minds would really help understand what a lot of people are trying to accomplish with their posts. I wonder if the internet would act as a portal allowing me to extend my 100' telepathy out across the intarwebz?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Meh, thread evasion is good, but I'm taking that level of Mindbender first. Being able to read minds would really help understand what a lot of people are trying to accomplish with their posts. I wonder if the internet would act as a portal allowing me to extend my 100' telepathy out across the intarwebz?

Doubt it, or my Sense Sarcasm skill would be more effective through it as well.

It would be handy, though... specially when dealing with women.

[Keld Denar]

It would be handy, though... specially when dealing with women.

Speak not the name of that epic level challenge, lest they be visited upon you with full fury! For truely, the Tarrasque hath no fury like a woman...scorned or otherwise.

:P

EDIT:
Man, I hope this thread was done, cause we just derailed it all to hell...

[monty]

It would be handy, though... specially when dealing with women.

The DC is too high; you'd never be able to make it.