Eldritch Disciple (3.5)

[JellyPooga]

Just a quicky really; I wanted some opinions on the PrC in general and whether it would be fair/balanced to replace the Turn/Rebuke Undead requirement (and advancement) with Chastise Spirits and Knowledge (Religion) with Knowledge (Nature).

When I first saw it, I immediately thought of an idea I had a while back for a Killoren Warlock/Spirit Shaman which never really went anywhere 'cos (at the time) there wasn't a PrC that advanced Invocations and Divine Spellcasting.

[MeklorIlavator]

I'm unfamiliar with Chastise Spirits, but as long as the uses/day is similar to Turn/rebuke, I see no problem.

[RukiTanuki]

Yep, Spirit Shamans can Chastise Spirits (3+Cha mod) times per day, starting at level 2. Mind you, they'll generally have a higher Charisma modifier than Clerics simply because it's their primary casting stat. It's likely that ED was designed with the idea that the class would be Wis/Cha(/Dex) dependent (much like how Mystic Theurge wasn't written to be used with dual-Int-dependent classes), but it's not a large balance concern in the long run. Notably, this character can't take Extra Turning nor use even a single nightstick, so I think this works out.

[JellyPooga]

Yep, Spirit Shamans can Chastise Spirits (3+Cha mod) times per day, starting at level 2. Mind you, they'll generally have a higher Charisma modifier than Clerics simply because it's their primary casting stat. It's likely that ED was designed with the idea that the class would be Wis/Cha(/Dex) dependent (much like how Mystic Theurge wasn't written to be used with dual-Int-dependent classes), but it's not a large balance concern in the long run. Notably, this character can't take Extra Turning nor use even a single nightstick, so I think this works out.

Whilst a Spirit Shaman does benefit more from high charisma than the average Cleric, they need Wis too...both the spells they can cast and bonus spells for SS are based on Wisdom., it's only their spell save DC's that are Charisma based.

[Fax Celestis]

I don't see any problems.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Seems perfectly fine.

[JellyPooga]

so I think this works out

I don't see any problems

Seems perfectly fine.

Huzzah! Three "o.k"s is good enough for me. I've just been thinking about the build for this character (Killoren Spirit Shaman/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple)...fluff is pretty much down pat (nothing too fancy really, pretty much a stereotype Killoren doing the whole 'paladin of nature' gig, powers coming direct from the 'spirits of the forest' and all that jazz)...and I need some advice.

1) 20 level progression: I do this for all my characters, regardless of how long I expect a game to go on (it's mostly just a thought exercise). I'm not sure how far to go with each class...I've been thinking SpSh (6)/Warl (5)/ ElTh (9) because that nets me that tasty Ghost Warrior ability from Spirit Shaman. However, it does mean I've got to go up to Warlock 5 (which is largely a dead level) to balance multiclassing and I miss out on level 10 Eldritch Theurge (losing Timeless Body thing is obviously not an issue for a Killoren, but losing the extra Gift of the Divine Patron is not tasty at all).

An alternative I considered was to include a dip (only 1, maybe 2 levels) into Enlightened Spirit, mostly to net Spirit Blast, which meshes well with the Spirit Shaman side, but in order to do that, I can't get up to SpSh 6 for Ghost Warrior without taking multiclass penalties.

Strictly speaking, I need only 1 level of Warlock to qualify for Eldritch Disciple if I can somehow negate multiclass penalties...any suggestions beyond just sucking up that 20% XP hit?

2) Feats: I have absolutely no idea where to go with these! I'd like a certain degree of melee ability to make use of his Aspect of the Destroyer smite, so feats is where this is going to have to come from. I'm not going to be a melee powerhouse by any means...restricted to light armour (no shield) and a limited choice of weapons...I'm looking at a skirmish-fighter, relying on mobility rather than standing and stickin' it. I thought maybe going for Elusive Target and Quickstaff from Complete Warrior, maybe sink a feat into Exotic Weapon Proficiency to grab a Longstaff (Complete Adventurer) so I can't be flanked. If I do, my feats are pretty much decided for me...Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus, Two Weapon Fighting, Elusive Target and Quickstaff...which doesn't leave room for anything else unless I take Flaws. Any suggestions for a better selection of feats?

3) Spells/Invocations: I've got a rough idea of which invocations I'll be going for (Entropic Warding, Summon Swarm, See the Unseen, Witchwood Step, Flee the Scene, Relentless Dispelling and Tenacious Plague for starts), but I'm not so familiar with spells...any suggestions for spells from the Druid list that might mesh well? I'm pretty set on the Vigour line of spells as a given for their requisite levels (which takes up one of my spells known for levels 1, 3, 5 and 6), but apart from that I'm a little at a loss. Possibly looking mainly at personal buffs to improve combat prowess, but some neat burst effects that I could unleash in the middle of combat wouldn't go amiss (like Quill Blast).

Any Help would be appreciated!

[Tempest Fennac]

Spells like Entangle would be good until you can pick up Chilling Tentacles. Summon Natures Ally my be a good choice as well if your allies need people to flank with or if you want to be able to take the heat off yourself and allies.

Featwise, I can't remember which book it's from but Dynamic Priest would allow you to use Cha for casting (but not getting bonus spells). To be fair, you could ask the DM to let you use Cha for all your Spirit Shaman casting (I'd allow that due to classing the need for more then 1 casting stat as pointless).

I'd also ask the DM about scrapping multiclass penalties due to those being pointless (from a fluff perspective, Timeless Body would fit with your character due to how it would stop him from losing the physical stats that would help him to defend nature).

[JellyPooga]

Spells like Entangle would be good until you can pick up Chilling Tentacles. Summon Natures Ally my be a good choice as well if your allies need people to flank with or if you want to be able to take the heat off yourself and allies.

Featwise, I can't remember which book it's from but Dynamic Priest would allow you to use Cha for casting (but not getting bonus spells). To be fair, you could ask the DM to let you use Cha for all your Spirit Shaman casting (I'd allow that due to classing the need for more then 1 casting stat as pointless).

I'd also ask the DM about scrapping multiclass penalties due to those being pointless (from a fluff perspective, Timeless Body would fit with your character due to how it would stop him from losing the physical stats that would help him to defend nature).

I'm happy to accept multiclass penalties if I must, so DM hand-waving isn't necessary really. Having a high Wisdom fits the character concept anyway, so again, I'm happy to leave that as is (the character is going to be pretty well rounded across the board due to my desire to have a melee aspect...about the only 'dump-stat' will be Int, and even that's likely to be at least 13 for Combat Expertise). Timeless Body is pretty irrelevant for Killoren as they only age to Middle Age and live as long as they like after that (no further bonus or penalties). Sure it would eliminate the penalties for Middle Age, but once again I'm actually quite happy to accept them as part of the characters development!

Entangle would certainly be a good choice (I don't think I'll be taking Chilling Tentacles though) given that I'd be immune to it (from Witchwood Step), so can cast and wade straight in! Isn't there an upgraded version in Complete Divine somewhere? Does anyone know if it's worth the higher spell level or would a different spell at that level be more effective? I'm not overly fond of the Summon spells (too short a duration for my liking)...the only reason I'm taking Summon Swarm as an Invocation is that I get to use it as often as I like and lasts for as long as I concentrate (rather than rounds/level)...but I can see your angle.