Duelist

[Darth Stabber]

In the interest of building a stockpile of characters (I frequently have you you shall not pass moments, and some just stupid deaths), I am considering a Duelist. How does this build strike
Str10,Dex15,Con14,Int16,Wis10,Cha12
Human
1:Fighter(Able learner, Weapon Finesse, Midnight Dodge)
2:Fighter(Mobility)
3:Fighter(Spring Attack)
4:Fighter(Combat reflexes)(+1 dex)
5:Fighter
6:Fighter(Combat Expertise, Improved Feint)
7:Duelist

Skills {@ lvl 6}
Bluff 9
Tumble 9
Spot 9
Perform(dance) 9
Bluff 9
Jump 9
Escape Artist 9

Priority Equipment
Bracers of armor +X
Best enchanted rapier I get my grubby little hands on.

Is it stupid to go into a class that all but takes away your ability to wear armor as a Fighter? Should I add some rogue, ranger, or barbarian in there? these are the question I feel the need to ask. Also comments about swashbuckler need not apply, not interested in pursuing that route.

[Zincorium]

I've personally always felt that Duelist is a trap- if you want to get an ability score to your AC at the expense of armor... well, I believe there's this thing called a 'monk' that gets every single point you have in that score rather than having to take a level for each.

Precise strike is worse in basically every way except one to Sneak Attack. Enhanced Mobility is completely obsolete if you have the tumble skill. Grace gives you a bonus to the a save you were hopefully not having problems with.

Elaborate Parry is about the only class feature that justifies taking it, and that's restricted to defensive fighting. Y'know, the kind that monsters get bored of and wander off to make the mage sweat over concentration checks.


I'm thinking that a rogue/fighter mixture is much more versatile, and doesn't hit you below the belt with questionable class features.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd prefer to qualify for Duelist with Feat Rogue 4/ Swashbuckler 3. I'd use the Arcane Stunt swashbuckler variant and the Spell Reflection rogue variant, both in CM. Grey Elf is a good race to use, make sure Str doesn't have a negative modifier and prioritize Dex and Int. Get Improved Weapon Familiarity to use the Elven swords from RotW, or get Exotic Weapon: Quickblade Rapier from CV if you want to focus on disarming. Elusive Target is a great feat to use with this, as are several of the Combat Form feats from PH2.

[Draz74]

Tome of Battle is actually the best way to do this archetype, if you do it right. Are you similarly "not interested" in that?

And Duelist ... well, it's a fun idea, but what does the class actually get you that's worthwhile?

If you really want to do a character of this type without Swashbuckler or ToB levels (or Factotum levels), then yes, you should be taking Rogue levels. As in, mostly Rogue levels, with a 2-level Fighter dip, and maybe some Duelist levels if you really have to.

Skills {@ lvl 6}
Bluff 9
Tumble 9
Spot 9
Perform(dance) 9
Bluff 9
Jump 9
Escape Artist 9

Did you miss the part where Able Learner doesn't increase your maximum ranks in cross-class skills? You can't have more than 4.5 ranks of any of these skills except Jump as a Level 6 pure Fighter.

[Tsotha-lanti]

You gotta go into Duelist from Swashbuckler. Why play an Int-based class and not take +Int to damage? You take enough Duelist to get that, then 2 Fighter levels for feats, and 2 Scout levels for Uncanny Dodge (I think that's enough?). Get a defending dagger and Greater Two-Weapon Defense to really twink out your defensive fighting. You have to max out Intelligence.

[Darth Stabber]

My Idea was to use actually use Duelist, I'm not trying to power game with this build, just something to make a Character utilizing the class. Forgot about the limitations of Able Learner, so Rogue necessitates it self after all, therefore delaying entry by a level. But 1 lvl of Barbarian in the mix, namely because it's better than lvl3 of fighter, and another rogue level would not contribute BAB, and I like the extra movement.
So,
Str12,Dex15,Con14,Int16,Wis10,Cha10
Rogue(Dodge, Mobility, 1d6 SA)
Rogue(Evasion)
Rogue(weapon Finesse, 2d6 SA)
Rogue(Uncanny Dodge)
Fighter[thug](combat Expertise)
Fighter[thug](improved Feint)
Barbarian(whirling Frenzy, +10ft movement)

Wow, I like this build even before anything else gets added. Is there a feat that Lets me make a skill always class, without the cross class cap of Able Learner.

[Person_Man]

Duelist sucks, even for a core melee PrC. With the exception of Canny Defense and Elaborate Parry, the class abilities are weak. And even then, Dex bonus + Int bonus + Duelist class level is usually not much higher then Dex bonus + armor bonus + shield bonus. And if you're a full BAB build and want to boost two stats, those two stats should be Dex and Con, not Dex and Int. Skills are nice, but not nearly as important as your hit points and Fort Save.

Stabber, what are your build goals?

[Draz74]

Wow, I like this build even before anything else gets added.

That's because the classes that you've taken so far, in the quantities that you've taken them, are good classes. But Duelist won't help you much, and I think you might end up disappointed by your AC when you actually play if you don't wear armor.

Is there a feat that Lets me make a skill always class, without the cross class cap of Able Learner.

There are feats like this for specific skills. Like Educated for Knowledge skills (Forgotten Realms material, though) or City Slicker for some intrigue skills. No general feat like this has been published, though my last DM houseruled that you could gain any 2 skills as class skills with a feat.

Or you could go for Factotum instead of Rogue. Factotum + Able Learner = all skills are class skills, in every way that matters. And Factotum actually probably synergizes with Duelist more than Rogue does (more INT synergy, mainly). 3 levels of Factotum and a good INT will get you a great boost to your Tumble, Jump, and Escape Artist checks and your initiative. And a single spell per day just to be flashy (Prestidigitation?). And add INT to AC again, in desperate situations. It's really quite a swashbuckling-type friendly class.

If you go this route, you can still pick up Uncanny Dodge with another Barbarian level. Factotum 3/Fighter 2/Barbarian 2 ...

[Douglas]

Is there a feat that Lets me make a skill always class, without the cross class cap of Able Learner.

If you're specifically looking for Tumble to satisfy the Duelist prereq, Martial Study for any Desert Wind maneuver does the trick.

[Nohwl]

i second going swashbuckler and then into duelist.

[Darth Stabber]

My build goal is to utilize Duelist, it may sound stupid, but that's what I wanted to do, find some way to make a prc i've never used (outside of one lvl builds), but like, and try to hack something playable out of it. That and I have never really made good use of feint rules in the past, I haven't played straight rogue since 2e (and they called 'em thieves back then), and fighter's skill list make it nearly impossible for them to capitalize upon it. So if you want a build goal that does not include the term duelist: dex based, unarmored feint focused human Fencer with some Precision damage, mostly full bab, a rapier, and maybe some critical hit based shenanigans. I generally steer clear of Factotum, especially given I don't have access to whatever book it's in.

[Zincorium]

My build goal is to utilize Duelist, it may sound stupid, but that's what I wanted to do, find some way to make a prc i've never used (outside of one lvl builds), but like, and try to hack something playable out of it. That and I have never really made good use of feint rules in the past, I haven't played straight rogue since 2e (and they called 'em thieves back then), and fighter's skill list make it nearly impossible for them to capitalize upon it. So if you want a build goal that does not include the term duelist: dex based, unarmored feint focused human Fencer with some Precision damage, mostly full bab, a rapier, and maybe some critical hit based shenanigans. I generally steer clear of it, especially given I don't have access to whatever book it's in.

So... specific crunch stuff for the sake of specific crunch stuff, but not powergaming.

Were you looking for advice or validation?

You're going to get a lot of the former (and you don't seem to like around 60% of it), and, well, you're apparently not going to get the latter.

[Darth Stabber]

Maybe I am being a little rigid. Okay, so I am being way rigid. So I will state a specific build goal, with no specific classes named (note I do not have access to ToB, or what ever Factotum is in): Human Fencer with good feinting, precision damage that can be triggered off feinting (SA, SS, either one, don't need more than a couple dice), Decent BAB(At least getting all 4 iterative attacks by lvl 20), movement across the battlefield (via mobility or tumble), and light or no armor.

[Fax Celestis]

Maybe I am being a little rigid. Okay, so I am being way rigid. So I will state a specific build goal, with no specific classes named (note I do not have access to ToB, or what ever Factotum is in): Human Fencer with good feinting, precision damage that can be triggered off feinting (SA, SS, either one, don't need more than a couple dice), Decent BAB(At least getting all 4 iterative attacks by lvl 20), movement across the battlefield (via mobility or tumble), and light or no armor.

Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17, take Daring Outlaw.

[Douglas]

Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17, take Daring Outlaw.

Toss in a level of Monk plus Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Genius to get int to AC without having to spend more than one level on it.

[Draz74]

(SA, SS, either one, don't need more than a couple dice),

Yes you do, or you'll be dreadfully low-impact on any encounters your party faces. Unless you find another way to up your damage a lot.

Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17, take Daring Outlaw.

Yep, that's a much better way than Duelist for doing what you've described as your goals. (Except I'd go 4/16 rather than 3/17 ... Uncanny Dodge is better than Slippery Mind, and you get a few more skill points and don't lose any BAB.)

I tried to think of a decent way to fit in Invisible Blade, since it makes Feinting not suck quite as badly, but its prerequisites are just too steep and too useless.

Stuff you weren't asking for, but that could come in handy for you in the future:

Spoiler

Show

Factotum is in Dungeonscape. A great book, especially for DMs building dungeons, and written by Rich Burlew (and another guy). You can also find a fairly thorough summary of the Factotum here, which I hope is paraphrased enough that its existence isn't breaking any laws!

You can also find enough Tome of Battle material to make what I was suggesting here and here.

[ivendale]

well, some races (kobolds, Drow etc.) have substitution levels for fighter.
instead of armor proficiency they get to take free feats which expand on their races desired. traits.
you could also be a swashbuckler (complete worrier) this class is the perfect mold for ether a dullest or a dread pirate.


i'd go with the swashbuckler, they're fun!