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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Different XP rates can work with free multiclass (3.5)

    Many people have said that different level gaining rates and free multiclass don't mesh.
    I respectfully disagree and here's how


    What you see there is a table for an alternative XP system. Basically it lists the xp you need to advance to a certain level THOSE NUMBERS DO NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT PREVIOUS LEVELS Basically whenn you go from level 12 to 13 in a low XP class you need 9000 XP from zero.

    That is also the reason why it will work with free multiclass.

    You may choose to stall your level. This means when for example a level 15 fighter gain 11250 XP he doesn't need to use it. He may instead stall it until he can get xp for a higher xp class of the same character level.

    Xp tiers

    Low Underpowered or otherwise rather weak class
    Monk
    Fighter
    Rogue
    Ranger
    Paladin
    Barbarian
    Bard
    Ninja
    Spellthief

    Medium Decent classes that hold their own, but are not OP
    Warblade
    Swordsage
    Crusader
    Duskblade

    High Powerful classes that may even go to the OP side as a standard
    Wizard
    Cleric
    Sorcerer
    Shapechange Variant Druid

    Very High Overpowered stuff that can break the game easily
    Druid



    For example Jared has 5 levels in fighter and wants to go wizard. The wizard level 6 XP is 6250 so he gathers the XP and takes a wizard level.
    He is now a Fighter 5/ Wizard 1

    Seem good?
    Last edited by Frog Dragon; 2009-02-26 at 03:09 PM.
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    Satyr's Avatar

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    Default Re: Different XP rates can work with free multiclass (3.5)

    Sounds like an interesting idea. I will discuss it with my group, and perhaps include it into Sewers and Serpents; if we find a major drawback to this concept, I'll let you know.

    Even though, as someone who focus more on causality and versimilitude than on balance, I think I would favor non-caster classes over caster classes every time, as they have less to learn and hence do it in less time.
    Last edited by Satyr; 2009-02-26 at 12:14 PM.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Different XP rates can work with free multiclass (3.5)

    I see one small problem with the table. Let's say I'm a level 3 monk (1500 xp) and I take my 4th level in druid (maybe i'm going fist of the forest or something). I stall my XP until I have 4500, the amount to gain that druid level. Next level, I want to take another monk level, which requires 2250 xp and... wait... I already have that. So my monk level is free I guess. Oops.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Different XP rates can work with free multiclass (3.5)

    No that problem does not exist. Read the bolded text on caps.
    It does not take into account previous XP. Which means that when you take a level you should zero your XP total and then collect the XP. The XP required is calculated from 0. Think it like, each time you gain a level you lose XP equal to the amount the level "costs"
    So say you have that build you just said

    Well
    To get to....
    2. level: You need 750 XP (monk)
    3. level: You need 1500 more XP (still monk)
    4. level: you need 4500 points of additional XP (druid)
    5. level: Now you need 2250 more points of XP to get your next monk level.

    Get it?
    The totals are calculated from point 0 so when you gain a level you "buy" it and add the leftover to the total for your next level.
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    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Different XP rates can work with free multiclass (3.5)

    Archivist
    Ardent
    Artificer
    Barbarian
    Bard
    Beguiler
    Binder
    Cleric
    Crusader
    Divine Mind
    Dragon Shaman
    Dragonfire Adept
    Dread Necromancer
    Druid
    Duskblade
    Factotum
    Favored Soul
    Fighter
    Healer
    Hexblade
    Knight
    Lurk
    Marshal
    Monk
    Ninja
    Paladin
    Psion
    Psychic Warrior
    Ranger
    Rogue
    Samurai
    Scout
    Shadowcaster
    Sorcerer
    Soulknife
    Spellthief
    Spirit Shaman
    Swashbuckler
    Swordsage
    Truenamer
    Warblade
    Warlock
    Warmage
    Wilder
    Wizard



    Have fun compiling them into XP costs :) Also, there're a zillion of PrCs waiting for you.
    (Yes, this is complete as far as I know.)
    Last edited by Eloel; 2009-02-26 at 03:05 PM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Different XP rates can work with free multiclass (3.5)

    I don't have all of those classes though. My library is very limited

    (I have Core, CADV, CSCO, PHBII, AaEG and ToB and that's it. Eberron campaing setting and CARC are coming in the mail though.)
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    Baron Corm's Avatar

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    Default Re: Different XP rates can work with free multiclass (3.5)

    Why does it take more to become a wizard level 1 if your character level is 19 than if your character level is 2? That makes no sense. I'm not talking about the scaling difference, I'm talking about the comparative difference. I.E., it's better to take all of your wizard levels in the beginning, then take your fighter levels after, for some reason. The actual difference between Low, Medium, High, and Very High should be static.

    Disclaimer: Subject is confusing and I am subject to being confused.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Different XP rates can work with free multiclass (3.5)

    Also, tell me just HOW do you justify someone becoming Fighter 20 at half the time someone else becomes a druid 20?

    For reference, a Fighter 20 takes 157500 XP to get to, and Druid 14 takes the same XP.
    How is THAT balanced?

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    Default Re: Different XP rates can work with free multiclass (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingpoo22 View Post
    Why does it take more to become a wizard level 1 if your character level is 19 than if your character level is 2? That makes no sense. I'm not talking about the scaling difference, I'm talking about the comparative difference. I.E., it's better to take all of your wizard levels in the beginning, then take your fighter levels after, for some reason. The actual difference between Low, Medium, High, and Very High should be static.
    Well, it makes sense that way, doesn't it? If you're a wizard who's been studying arcane lore for a long time, it's easier to pick up some sword tricks than if you were a warrior who tried to study arcane magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by ozgun92
    Also, tell me just HOW do you justify someone becoming Fighter 20 at half the time someone else becomes a druid 20?

    For reference, a Fighter 20 takes 157500 XP to get to, and Druid 14 takes the same XP.
    How is THAT balanced?
    Mmm...possibly because a level 14 druid is more powerful than a level 20 fighter, perhaps? The tiers he's made are arranged by power level, so if you want people to be at the same power level at the same time, you might have to have some people be higher level than others to balance it all out.

    It's not a new concept at all. This is how things worked in 1e and 2e--different HP scales for different classes, and if you were a human dual-classing, you'd have different advancement rates for your classes. Having high-level fighters in the same party as mid-level thieves and lower-level magic-users was par for the course.
    Last edited by PairO'Dice Lost; 2009-02-26 at 05:18 PM.
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    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Different XP rates can work with free multiclass (3.5)

    It really isn't.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Different XP rates can work with free multiclass (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Well, it makes sense that way, doesn't it? If you're a wizard who's been studying arcane lore for a long time, it's easier to pick up some sword tricks than if you were a warrior who tried to study arcane magic.
    Alright, but how fair does it seem to force people to minmax, or to change their backstory, in order to prevent thousands of XP lost, compared to someone who has the same exact class levels in a different order? I think this might be the reason that "many people" say that this system doesn't work with the 3e multiclassing system.

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    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Different XP rates can work with free multiclass (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingpoo22 View Post
    Alright, but how fair does it seem to force people to minmax, or to change their backstory, in order to prevent thousands of XP lost, compared to someone who has the same exact class levels in a different order? I think this might be the reason that "many people" say that this system doesn't work with the 3e multiclassing system.
    You could say these same things about the current system. Why do you need so much XP to multiclass to Fighter 1 after 10 levels of going wizard? It's really the same deal. This facet of the argument against his system is invalid because it's the same thing with the current system.
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    Default Re: Different XP rates can work with free multiclass (3.5)

    This system makes 2-level dips in Monk or Fighter much more appealing than they already were (which was pretty appealing already!). Possibly even a viable option for full casters.

    Level 8 Cleric: Let's see, I can spend 12000 XP to get to Cleric 9. Or, I can spend 14250 to get two Monk levels and a Cleric level. Hmmmm.

    ... or for that matter, when I get up to 12000 XP, I can get one Cleric level ... or six Monk levels. That option will put me permanently behind on Cleric casting by one level, but meh ... that's a pretty tempting payoff for a loss of one caster level!
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Different XP rates can work with free multiclass (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Daracaex View Post
    You could say these same things about the current system. Why do you need so much XP to multiclass to Fighter 1 after 10 levels of going wizard? It's really the same deal. This facet of the argument against his system is invalid because it's the same thing with the current system.
    I didn't mean "scaling", I meant "comparatively". A wizard 1/fighter 19 has ten thousand more XP than a fighter 19/wizard 1 in this system.

    Edit: Draz, it doesn't work that way, I don't think. It would cost you the amount listed under "Level 9" to get a monk level as your 9th level, not the amount listed under "Level 1".

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    Default Re: Different XP rates can work with free multiclass (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingpoo22 View Post
    Edit: Draz, it doesn't work that way, I don't think. It would cost you the amount listed under "Level 9" to get a monk level as your 9th level, not the amount listed under "Level 1".
    Ah, hmmm. Thanks for catching that. If you're not correct, you should be -- that does indeed curb my reservation nicely.

    Still leaves us with this other weird effect that you're discussing, though.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Different XP rates can work with free multiclass (3.5)

    It's essentially because that's how the normal system is. The CR/XP system also operates on certain assumptions about XP gained per fight at a certain level. If you run the numbers you'll notice that the medium line is the exact same as the standard from the rulebook. The only difference is that this system announces the difference between levels/ XP needed from level 13 to level 14 while the standard tells you how much you need to go from 0 to 14.
    That's the only difference with my medium line and the standard XP. The net total is the same.
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