A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    [QUOTE=Advocate;5836788]

    Kaihaku: As long as you still bring it up, that's how long. The liar card is played as you put it (not my words) because things that are not solid and objective are empty claims. There is no proof you enjoy it, your enjoying it doesn't mean anything to anyone else here... it has no basis in any debate. In a debate, you stick to facts, as facts are independently verifiable, and actually mean something to your opponent and to observers.
    QUOTE]

    Funnily enough it appears that most of the observers do care what Kaihaku thinks and they disagree with you. Since then entire point of this thread was basicly counter to what you are saying. I won't get into the nature of facts but I think that it is more or less a fact that Kaihaku was enjoying the game. Maybye not that the game was fun but it is a fact that he enjoyed it. I personaly would say that Kaihaku won this debate, based on popular opinion.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Just to throw in my 2 cents:

    I've never had trouble playing in an unbalanced system. I have a hard time believing anyone has -- repeatedly, anyway.

    Why?

    Because D&D's a game. It's something a bunch of ladies and dudes meet up to do on their weekends between work and bowling. For most groups, there is no imbalance in D&D; Fighters hit things with their swords, Wizards shoot things with Glitterdust, Fireball, Enervation and such, Clerics heal and buff and sometimes smack things around with their clubs and Rogues do whatever it is they do.

    Nobody has any problems. And if something looks like it might be game-breaking, the group either just accepts it or, if it's making the game less enjoyable, makes up houserules or outright bans it. If somebody feels useless because the Druid is too powerful, it doesn't really matter. If players don't think it's fun, it won't happen again.
    No problems.

    And once players recognize imbalance -- that it's not just the Spellsword, it's half the classes in the PHB that make the Fighter feel useless and unwanted -- the game will adjust accordingly. Party composition might change from Fighter/Wizard/Cleric/Rogue to Spellsword/Wizard/Cleric/Rogue or Fighter/Warlock/Dragon Shaman/Rogue. Still no problems.

    Even when there are mixmatches, when a new player in the group brings a Fighter to a higher-powered game, it's no big deal. Instead of standing along uselessly on the side of a fight because the dragons will eat his face, the Fighter will activate his Armor of Giant Size, turn on his Sword of Wraithstrike and Power Attack the dragon for all he's worth.

    Is the Fighter being "coddled"? Sure. Is this RAW? Nope. Does it even directly contradict the Wealth-by-level guidelines? Absolutely. But does any of that matter? Not at all, because the Fighter's player feels wanted and useful at the table. This is the sort of game most people actually play because most people don't like to feel unwanted or rejected.

    Now someone might say the Fighter's still a waste of space, that a Warblade, Psychic Warrior, Cleric or somesuch would make better use of the equipment that's keeping him afloat. They might say the party would do better to kick the Fighter out and stick the Spellsword in that suit.

    That would be fair enough, except the gear wouldn't exist without the Fighter using it. Without him, some baddy would probably Disjoin the lot of it long before the Epic Showdown.

    See, this isn't a video game; real people (players and DMs alike) adapt to make the game work, boosting and restricting characters and tweaking rules where they see fit. Real people rarely make an effort to make their friends unhappy. "Coddling" is as much a part of the game as the rules in your PHB.

    Now I agree that RAW is all that matters in a rules discussion on the internet. But this thread isn't a rules discussion; it is deliberately subjective, it is deliberately experiencial, it is deliberately opinionated.
    It was, as far as I can see, made to discuss the game that's actually played. That game which has almost nothing to do with RAW.
    Last edited by Temp.; 2009-03-02 at 04:40 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Dear Advocate, I thaught for two days how to write an elaborate, convincing and capacious answer to your claims, but I recognized that it just isn't worth it.
    There are many people who do not share my opnions in questions of roleplaying; in many positons, my perspectives and ideas are regarded as problematic, and not withot reason. I am as elitist as a roleplayer can be, drive for ridiculously high standards, little tolerance for what I conscider as stupid and sometimes a brash way to express my views.
    But I still have the deepest respect for many people who have even completely complimentary views. This respect is a necessity for an arguement, especially if you are interested to actually exchanged positions and experiences. One might learn from other people.

    Unfortunately, you do not seem to share this mutual respect, which makes extremely tiresome to even read the discussions you are involved in. You cherry-pick arguements and ignore most of the other discutant's claims if you don't have an answer to them, or difaming them to "bait". That is terrible style of discussion. You seem unable to relate the people have fun playing in a style of gaming substancial different from yours.

    Congratulations - you are the Stop Having Fun Guy.


    The target of a roleplaying game - any roleplying game - is, that all involved people are having a good time, and having fun. That's it. There are no other objectives besides this (apart from a slight educational value if this is another objective, but in most roleplaying groups that is negliable).
    The thing that matters is how the different groups are having fun and how they make it. As fun is as subjective as a thing can be, these ways are automatically vastly different. There is no general solution for how people are supposed to have fun - it is even absolute and completely impossible to find a general solution for having fun for different people with different tastes, living situations and ideas. Within a small group of five to ten people, it is usually possible to find a compromise, but that's it. A compromise isn't a general solution, either - it is only a way to make sure that everyone feels regarded and
    As there is no possible way to determine a generalised way of how people are having fun, all ideas how people are supposed to play or otherwise prescribed ways are either completely irrelevant or a try to control and manipulate others. In both ways, they have little to no significance, or should have at least. The important thing is not how anyone is supposed or presumed to have fun, but how someone actually has fun. If the prescriptive doctrine comes in the way of having fun, the doctrine is always and without exceptions, wrong.
    There is one exception of the ideal gamemaster who is that good that his or her players are completely awed and fascinated by the game that it doesn't matter that the GM's ideas of how to run a game does only barely correlate with the ideas of the players but is that good, that the player's personal preferences becomes secondary. As all ideal things, this is highly utopian on a long term scale.

    So, if people are having fun with a highly formalised game where all forms of conflict resolution and interaction is solved with dice rolls, it's great - for them.
    If another group is having the time of their life and mental orgasms through a completely dice-free game where the question of success and and failure is nigh irrelevant compared to the acting and personification of the character, that is great, too.
    And a third group may have the biggest fun if they combine features of both playing styles and roll for combats but play out all social interactions while deeply enjoying the game.

    The important thing to understand is, that no one of these groups is intrinsically "right" or "wrong". Arguing for the superiority of any of these playing styles is like arguing for the superiority of chocolate icecream to straciatella, and it is not an iota less ridiculous.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    {Scrubbed}
    Upon closer inspection, there is one thing that doesn't fall under the blanket irrelevance... The Fighter is far more susceptible to Game Disjunction than those other guys. And since it isn't the Artifact Sword fix because they are not actually artifacts...
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2009-03-02 at 03:37 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate View Post
    instead of fixing it you apply fingers to ears and sing Kumbayah.
    You know, that's exactly what you seem to be doing. The people posting here are all giving constructive arguments, mostly regarding enjoyment, and you're dismissing them for trivial reasons.

    I enjoy playing Fighters, Paladins, even Monks. That's not to say that they're not worse than all the other classes, but I contribute. I have fun. Advocate, what you seem to be saying is that I'm not allowed to adapt the rules, so that they're more fun for everyone. It seems what you're saying is that if there's a higher than 50% chance something will happen (i.e. there's about a 60-70% chance of a fighter sucking) then that something will happen (i.e. all fighters will suck no matter what) and therefore, the player will be upset because, to quote a chick tract, "It's their fault Black Leaf died"

    In the end of the day, who cares? It's a game, and to be perfectly honest, most of the fun (for me, and plenty of other people I know) comes from just sitting down, having a laugh with some friends, or developing a character and telling a story. None of those things care whether there's a rule for that or not, so balance doesn't generally factor into it.
    Last edited by Dogmantra; 2009-03-02 at 08:38 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Advocate, I liked your reasoning "A character is a person, and his only concern is to take down the monster before the monster hits back, so a character will never choose the underperforming way over the overperforming one".

    Now, though, ask yourself another question:
    What if you are a fighter in a world of magic? You grow up, ignore those arcane books because, frankly, only nerds like them and all those formulae mess up with your head... You take a big sword instead, wear your coated armor and start the adventuring path.

    At some point, where you're beginning to make a name for yourself and you're enjoying your rightful role as a party leader, your buddies start to charge before you even unsheate your sword. That thin and pale guy in the back starts shooting lightning from his fingers, lightinings that fry enemies dead in seconds. Your hippie pal polimorphs into some huge wild beast and tears apart all opposition... and your friendly healer, mr. cleric niceguy, turns himself into a war machine with holy light sprinkling from his eyes and with a power halo that frightens you.

    ...what do you do? You know you're improving, but you feel so little league compared to the heights your friends have reached. Would you start hating them for taking the spotlight? Would you start to feel more and more useless? Would you feel that your part of the loot is not so deserved any more?

    I think you would. After all you've started your career to BE the hero and right the wrongs and stuff, and not to be the sidekick of the thin and pale nerd in red robes!!! A nerd in red robes, I might add, that scares the hell out of you now...

    What I am saying is that you would probably end up quitting your group, if the other members wouldn't show you the proper respect. It's not all about power, it's all about perception. If you're reckognized a role and a purpose in your group, you stick to it. If you're not, you leave.

    In terms of roleplay you can call it metagaming, but the truth is that no self-esteeming wizard in the 15+ lvl range would travel with a warrior sidekick in a high-fantasy world ruled by D&D (I'm assuming that fighting power is the primary requisite in choosing a travelling buddy, which I know is a big assumption anyway). So, all players in a d&d setting must agree to this metagaming rule: working as a TEAM is the sensible choice for all the party members. No matter the power. All have to accept it, for the sake of the story. Even if it would make sense to drop the warrior after the 10th level, and hire another wizard...

    So your "true and pure" ROLEPLAYING view, Advocate, isn't really meaningful. Playing the "it would make more sense" card in a group roleplaying game is bad. Because it doesn't take into account the purpose of the game, which is to narrate and live a story, just like in a movie, and suspension of disbelief is needed in certain critical areas just to make it WORK.

    ps: I agree with Satyr and more importantly I share his view on the games in general.
    Last edited by Jan Mattys; 2009-03-02 at 08:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate
    Get off the bandwagon where you try to prove the big bad Advocate wrong because he has proven you to be wrong, and instead of fixing it you apply fingers to ears and sing Kumbayah. Because we all know that's the only reason you're all posting this way. You are as transparent as my windows.
    You have proven me wrong? Where? When? In which alternative reality? When you took one single sentence out on an argument, quoted like a stalinist and "proved" that a single component doesn't fit in your personal worldview, which makes it wrong? That is only a "proof" if you ignore the difference between subjectivity and objectivity.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaihaku View Post
    I never claimed that the system was fair and balanced, I claimed that it is possible to enjoy playing a martial character despite that in a good group.
    Of course it is. Excellent post, Kaihaku. Game balance is never an issue for many roleplayers because the point is to have fun, not to compete against the other players. Incidentally, this is why no RPG other than D&D, to my knowledge, makes much of an attempt to be balanced: because nobody cares if it does.
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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Quote Originally Posted by Satyr View Post
    The important thing to understand is, that no one of these groups is intrinsically "right" or "wrong". Arguing for the superiority of any of these playing styles is like arguing for the superiority of chocolate icecream to straciatella, and it is not an iota less ridiculous.
    And another excellent post.

    Except that chocolate is much superior to straciatella, of course
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  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post

    Except that chocolate is much superior to straciatella, of course
    Can I start a flame war for this?

    Last edited by Kaiyanwang; 2009-03-02 at 10:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The rogue isn't really using charisma in melee, the rogue is applying Ability Score #6 to his Type-One attacks.
    Quote Originally Posted by ken-do-nim View Post
    DMing is how you turn D&D from a game into a hobby.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maroon View Post
    Players can see a story where there isn't one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    For 4.0? I expect them to whine to the DM until he makes the big bad boogeyman go away.

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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang View Post
    Can I start a flame war for this?

    Not until someone brings me some of this straciatella so that I may make a proper comparison.
    -Dyllan

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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2009-03-02 at 03:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dyllan View Post
    Not until someone brings me some of this straciatella so that I may make a proper comparison.
    *Kaiyanwang conjures some Stracciatella from the best Messina ice-cream palrour*

    Sigh. I wish i were actually able to conjure stracciatella. I wouldn't ask more from conjuration school.

    OP: in short, is possible enjoy an unbalanced system unless players are of the kind you sometimes find in teh internet.

    But for those players, no system is balanced. Is better directly not to play with that kind of players, because are able to ruin you day even when you play chess.

    Even if you go to have some Stracciatella Ice Cream.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The rogue isn't really using charisma in melee, the rogue is applying Ability Score #6 to his Type-One attacks.
    Quote Originally Posted by ken-do-nim View Post
    DMing is how you turn D&D from a game into a hobby.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maroon View Post
    Players can see a story where there isn't one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    For 4.0? I expect them to whine to the DM until he makes the big bad boogeyman go away.

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang View Post
    Can I start a flame war for this?

    Waaaay ahead of you
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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Advocate, I'd love to know what you think of this one statement :

    D&D, despite its imbalances, is a game, and was created for the equal enjoyment of all players. In a mature group, everyone contributes to the fun, and no one seeks to overshadow the other players.
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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quietus View Post
    Advocate, I'd love to know what you think of this one statement :

    D&D, despite its imbalances, is a game, and was created for the equal enjoyment of all players. In a mature group, everyone contributes to the fun, and no one seeks to overshadow the other players.
    The statement is irrelevant, as it assumes because no one is 'seeking' to overshadow the other players it isn't happening. Except that it is, by pure accident.

    So basically, that's another straw man immolated.

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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate View Post
    The statement is irrelevant, as it assumes because no one is 'seeking' to overshadow the other players it isn't happening. Except that it is, by pure accident.

    So basically, that's another straw man immolated.
    First off.. You seem to have some issues with accusations of fallacies, when you don't actually know what they are. Let me help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.
    I haven't misrepresented ANYONE'S position. I asked for your thoughts on a statement, and rather than arguing against it with logic, you tossed a reasonable statement aside and became aggressive. That's not really conducive to real conversation.


    As to the statement itself : If you aren't seeking to overshadow other players, then it doesn't just "happen". In the group I'm playing with later tonight, there's me (druid with snake companion), a sorcerer, a cleric, a barbarian, and a barb/fighter. The melee guys contribute the most to the game, and we're starting to crawl out of the low levels now... so by your thinking, or at least what I've gathered of it, I and the other casters should be becoming like unto gods. But it's not happening. In fact, in my experience, it's rare that it does.

    It's much more common for players to play as the game was intended (healbot cleric, blaster arcane casters, beatstick melee) than for anyone to use casters to completely overshadow the party. A Sorcerer who loves fireballs, and a Cleric who supports his party instead of spending three rounds buffing herself so she can fight on the front lines... these aren't overpowering, and they represent a much more common situation than "Casters win in one turn always".
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  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Except that isn't that the game where the DM is power tripping to mess with you, by forcing the snake onto you?

    All a blaster caster does is ensure the beatsticks get slaughtered, because the enemies are not crippled. Also, CoDzilla doesn't burn combat rounds to go beatsticking.

    Lastly, no. Stupidity is not more common.

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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate View Post
    Except that isn't that the game where the DM is power tripping to mess with you, by forcing the snake onto you?

    All a blaster caster does is ensure the beatsticks get slaughtered, because the enemies are not crippled. Also, CoDzilla doesn't burn combat rounds to go beatsticking.

    Lastly, no. Stupidity is not more common.
    No, I chose the snake. I could've taken any animal on the PHB list I wanted, but it fit my character. If the DM isn't actively trying to screw over the players, then you don't NEED to end a fight in one round.

    It seems to me that you and I.. play very different, but similar games. You play a power gaming combat romp, where if you don't optimize to the edge of Pun-Punhood and end combats before they start, you die. Tell me if I'm wrong. My games, however, tend to focus more on the characters, their goals and motivations. There's combat, of course, but the DM isn't going to just out and out screw us over if we don't murder the enemies in record time.
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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    You're wrong. And stop building fields of crow bait.

    Edit: The snake guy was someone else though.
    Last edited by Advocate; 2009-03-02 at 02:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate View Post
    You're wrong. And stop building fields of crow bait.

    Edit: The snake guy was someone else though.
    Alright then. So, given that my group plays the game the way it was intended, and doesn't play casters like arrogant, self-centered, uncaring gods - what inherently is wrong with that play style?
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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2009-03-02 at 03:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quietus View Post
    Alright then. So, given that my group plays the game the way it was intended, and doesn't play casters like arrogant, self-centered, uncaring gods - what inherently is wrong with that play style?
    Nothing.

    The problem would seem to be then, that dear Advocate is plaing the rules, rather then the game.

    We understand that the game is about an idea, and the rules (as imperfect and imbalanced as they are) are merely a means to an end and nothing more. Therefore they are not the immutable Law of the Universe, but merely guidelines that should allow like-(or at least similarily-)minded individuals to come together to play an elaborate game of make-believe.

    Some of the assumptions the game operates under is, that a stalwart warrior should be an able and worthy companion for both wizard and rogue alike.

    They don't work that way, unless you stay within the parameters of the GAME.

    Now dear Advocate, and others of his ilk, either are unwilling to, or incapable of playing the GAME. They see all those rules and set out to master them, but, as the saying goes, they don't see the forest because of all those trees, and end up not mastering the GAME.

    And as others before me have put it much more elaborately then I ever could hope to: If you don't understand the meaning of the GAME, the rules will be useless to you.

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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    I call a Cease Fire. Now. Ok?

    Let's just stop the personal attacks ocurring here before a mod simply give a nice warn to everybody and closes the thread.

    Now, this thread is clearly divided between two points of view. I will launch my point of view to set some contrast here.

    First of all, check my avatar. It is a self made joke with the Game Character who is, btw, a Lawyer. Now, this was meant to be funny, but also means something else: I am a damn Lawyer too! It is my profession! This means, and it is a common thing on my profession, that I like facts, especially if they have a good proof to back up them.

    This means that most posts that do not have a empirical proof to back them up have little value on a discussion (and by discussion I mean a healthy conversation between two people that are trying to achieve something they can call "true" about a subject), meaning that all estatements that are based on "I had fun" or "This worked for me" are not valid, unless you can prove them in a valid manner.

    However sometimes a "proof" is not something you are searching for when you come to a forum like GiantITP's.

    Let I extend this: For exemple, when you are searching for a character build, you are hoping to find something that works; and by definition, the best way to make something work in every, or at least most, D&D tables is to use RAW, thus why RAW is the one and ONLY language worth using in a rule improvement discussion, simply because the Houserule person X uses on his gaming table may not be accepted at my gaming table; thus you are looking for proof that the build works. But them, there are times when you don't need proof, you simply need a estatement that you are willing to consider even without any proof, like when you are looking for a character concept or an adventure concept, when all your basis for the acceptence of the information is reduced to a simple "I like it" matter.

    Stretching a little the RAW x Houserule thing. Yes, you can point out Houseruled things in a RAW discussion, there is no problem. However, you should not expect that everybody accepts your estatement if it goes that way. what Advocate is saying when he points that thing about story lawyering is that you cannot expect that every DM will let your character to talk his way out without the needed skills.

    For example, I've played on many D&D adventures, with many DMs and many Players. One of my DMs houseruled that if wanted, the Plyer could choose between using social skills or roleplaying the conversation between the character and a NPC without using any rolls, just plain good and old talking (he had a penalty system for players roleplaying their characters in a totally disparity from the character concept, meaning that the brute Barabarian, f. ex., talking in equal terms to a noble should suffer some XP penalty), this was good, but as Advocate explained, what would have happened if a player had invested a lot on his character social skills? (There are many conclusions to this, but no one could be applied to every gaming table, so there is no point on saying "It woul've been ok in my group", ok?). In the other hand, I had another DM who followed the RAW on this matter, meaning that every negotiation was followed by a diplomacy check, meaning that the talking, no matter how good it was, was at mercy to a roll and teh circunstances. It was, IMO, a fair decision, since I am not allowed to neither describe how I climbed a wall to have success on the task or detail how I brandished my sword in such a fashion that the monster simply was hitten without the need of a roll.

    Guys, D&D can be a freeform RPG in many gaming tables, but it was not designed for it, if it has rules, they are there to, at least, be considered. Rule 0 is important, though, but it requires mature players and DM to make it work. Goddamn it, but not every gaming group is so mature to survive withou any rules to back the roleplaying.

    Unfortunatly, when we discuss a way to improve the effectiveness of a class or anything else here in the forum we are bound to back it up by rules, otherwise we are not able to guarantee that the improvement will work in every gaming table. And note, that the outcome will be considered Houserule, and thus only something we can expect to be used by other players.

    This was everything that the other Thread was about. Now, about this one. Please, let's just stick to the topic and stop the attacking between opposed Ideas about somthing that is not even being discussed in this thread.

    There are facts that cannot be denied:

    Yes, it is possible to enjoy an unbalanced game, but it becomes harder and harder with the increasing levels.

    It is not fair for the Players nor for the DM to hinder themselves so the weaker classes can shine. You cannot expect from the Wizard Player to use his weak spells for teh sake of the Fighter, who is Full Attacking every round thus using his best resources. Why the Wizard shouldnt be able to use his best resources too?

    Ok, there is no comparisson between a Fighter's Full Attack and the Wizard's Spells, but both are the resources that the classes have. It is totally up to the Wizard's Player to use his weak spells or not, you can't expect from every player in the world to achieve a Gentleman's Agreement about letting the Fighter shine while the casters simply do not use their full potential.

    And I am not saying that the Wizard player was trying to steal the spotlight. By using the best spells to confrontate the monster, he would be just using his resources as well as the Fighter would, but, and here is where the problem lies, his resources are simply better.

    And that said, I politely ask that everybody willing to improve the current core martial classes to do it in a way backed up by the RAW, even if that means making proposals to modify the rules.


    Thanks.
    Paladin Review - A Class Balance by me
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    Originally Posted by Dyllan

    Fawsto is definitely a lawyer. Nothing against what you said, Fawsto - but I've never read anything that sounded more like it came from a lawyer. :-)
    "Justice and liberty/You can't buy/But you don't get it free"
    - Bruce Dickinson, Born in 58

  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fawsto View Post
    ...First of all, check my avatar. It is a self made joke with the Game Character who is, btw, a Lawyer. Now, this was meant to be funny, but also means something else: I am a damn Lawyer too! It is my profession! This means, and it is a common thing on my profession, that I like facts, especially if they have a good proof to back up them...
    Sorry, was a bit too long to quote all of it... but I must say, I do think we found some truth in this thread.

    Fawsto is definitely a lawyer. Nothing against what you said, Fawsto - but I've never read anything that sounded more like it came from a lawyer. :-)
    -Dyllan

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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate View Post
    Also, even if you do get into blatant metagaming where you babysit the gimp, you are still misusing the word team. Because if he were actually a member of the team, there would not be a problem.

    To those looking for more detailed information, you're going to have to wait until I curb the spread of misinformation first, which is coming on fast and strong here.
    you seem to keep assuming that the party is a fighter codzilla, a batman wizard, and an artificer, and thats not always the case.

    what happens if the party is a complete warrior samurai, a monk, a fighter and a wizard, and the dm isnt trying to kill the party every chance he gets? imbalance is still there, but its the wizard who isnt in line with the rest of the group. the dm (and the rest of the players) wont allow the wizard to win every encounter in one round every time, even though he can. you can be a good player and play a weak class.

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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Peace, guys. The argument is over. Continue with the original discussion.

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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    Sheriff of Moddingham: Please be more civil in this thread going forward. Our Forum Rules contain broad definitions of Flaming and Trolling, and we know our posters expect this to be a friendly, civil forum. Please help us keep it that way and keep the number of official nudges to a minimum. Thanks.
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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    @Fawsto: The thing is, I would argue that having fun and properly contributing to the story is not necessarily tied to rules (no matter whether As Written or houseruled) or balance at all.

    You say it becomes increasingly more difficult with increasing levels for everybody to enjoy an unbalanced game, but then - and please correct me if I am misunderstanding your position here - you proceed with explaining that this is because the players of the stronger characters have increasing difficulty to not outshine the weaker characters, and have to deliberately pick inferior options. This, essentially, means that it becomes increasingly more difficult with higher levels to re-institute a state of balance in an inherently unbalanced system.

    That's perfectly correct, of course, but it is founded on the core assumption that balance is necessary in order for everyone to enjoy the game, and with balance being absent, the players have to work on returning to a state of balance so that everyone can have their enjoyment.

    I would like to point out now, though, that not everyone requires balance at all in order to have fun. It is a perfectly understandable stance to demand balance, and having a requirement of balance does not make one a lesser player, but depending on playstyle, balance might as well be of completely negligible importance for the players involved. It's a matter of pure personal preference. I have seen people who created children (who had neither the physical capabilities nor the education to shine with any particular skills), or deliberately incompetent people (like, say, rich, spoiled brats who never learnt any useful skills at all in their lives) as characters, simply because they had a character concept and figured it would fit interestingly into the world or interact in an interesting fashion with the already existing characters. I have done so myself, too.

    I could simply state that these people quite obviously had fun playing these characters (I know I did! ), but if you wish for more convincing arguments, how about this: There was no reason for these players to have less fun than the rest, for they still played an equally major role in the story itself. Partially, because all characters had their own sub-plots that, in strange and complex fashions, were interwoven with the campaign's main plot (which is as much the characters' as the gamemaster's doing), and partially, because they simply did the right thing at the right time (like, say, deciding to jump onto that truck when it was driving away and thus getting into the right location, saying the right (or wrong) thing to the right person (and by that, I don't necessarily mean an attempt to persuade anyone of anything - simply deciding to share a crucial information or withhold it from a powerful NPC might suffice), or deciding to push that ominous red button. And in such a playstyle, parity of power levels becomes completely irrelevant.
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    Default Re: Impossible to enjoy a imbalanced system with a group of good players?

    I would like to point out now, though, that not everyone requires balance at all in order to have fun.
    Exactly!

    Yes, this is the point I wanted to get into!

    I assume this thread is somewhat the offspring of the previews one, ok?

    The begining of this serie of threads was to find:

    A) A way to improve the role of the martial guys; and

    B) If a unbalanced system could be enjoyed.

    We can surely answer question B. You did it. I did it. Everybody who said "Yes, it can be enjoyed" said it. We are all correct. Because it is possible to enjoy an unbalanced game, the fact that we cannot show proof that we enjoy the game is nothing to the fact we like it. The fact that I like the game is something I can only prove to myself. However, this whole forum could be used as a proof that there are people out there, and it seems that we are many, that enjoy this game.

    However, there is the group of people who are interested on the question A. They are people who enjoy the game, but would enjoy it even more if the game was more balanced. I am one of them. It is a matter of taste.

    My previews post was based solely on the assumption that I, as a person who enjoys DnD and is interested on the answer to question A, would find it even more exciting if it was balanced.

    I never pointed out that every D&D adventure gets less funny while you are on the High levels. I said that they CAN become less funny for the meleers, I did not say it was something mandatory.

    And you must agree that if the Wizard's Player is not trying to break the game, but is just playing his character as a exciting and powerful being he is, who can say him to stop having fun? He is not deliberatly trying to impose himself, he is just being above the edge because his character was "born" this way. This is what happens to most druids. You do not need to be a D&D expert to use a Druid well, and in given time, he will surpass the Fighter, even if the player don't see it, even if the rest of teh group neglect it.

    The only thing you can hope to do is to ask the Player rping one of the Big 5 to pull some weaker tricks, if they don't agree, well you tried, there is no way you can impose this to them if they are not deliberatly trying to overshadow everyone else.

    I could simply state that these people quite obviously had fun playing these characters (I know I did! ), but if you wish for more convincing arguments, how about this: There was no reason for these players to have less fun than the rest, for they still played an equally major role in the story itself. Partially, because all characters had their own sub-plots that, in strange and complex fashions, were interwoven with the campaign's main plot (which is as much the characters' as the gamemaster's doing), and partially, because they simply did the right thing at the right time (like, say, deciding to jump onto that truck when it was driving away and thus getting into the right location, saying the right (or wrong) thing to the right person (and by that, I don't necessarily mean an attempt to persuade anyone of anything - simply deciding to share a crucial information or withhold it from a powerful NPC might suffice), or deciding to push that ominous red button. And in such a playstyle, parity of power levels becomes completely irrelevant.
    Again, you are correct. Everyone can have fun. But for some people like me, who is interested on the answer to question A, it would be possible to ensure a little more that everybody had a interesting role in the campaign if the game was more balanced.

    This is my OP. As I said, a matter of taste.


    I close my case.


    edit: @ Dylan

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fawsto
    ...First of all, check my avatar. It is a self made joke with the Game Character who is, btw, a Lawyer. Now, this was meant to be funny, but also means something else: I am a damn Lawyer too! It is my profession! This means, and it is a common thing on my profession, that I like facts, especially if they have a good proof to back up them...

    Sorry, was a bit too long to quote all of it... but I must say, I do think we found some truth in this thread.

    Fawsto is definitely a lawyer. Nothing against what you said, Fawsto - but I've never read anything that sounded more like it came from a lawyer. :-)
    DO you mind if I sig that? It is a matter of pride to be recognized like that.
    Last edited by Fawsto; 2009-03-02 at 09:43 PM.
    Paladin Review - A Class Balance by me
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    Originally Posted by Dyllan

    Fawsto is definitely a lawyer. Nothing against what you said, Fawsto - but I've never read anything that sounded more like it came from a lawyer. :-)
    "Justice and liberty/You can't buy/But you don't get it free"
    - Bruce Dickinson, Born in 58

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