The Optimized Party?

[Kaihaku]

So, a discussion on group optimization. I'm curious, what would an optimized party look like? Would it simply be Batman Wizards and maybe a GODzilla or two? Or would there be more synergy than that? I'm certain that it is possible for a group to be greater than the sum of its parts, in optimization theory how?

Assume a party of four characters with an optional fifth member. Minmaxing (optimized) is a given but avoid Munchkinism (broken ala Planar Shepherd). It would be interesting to include "combos" and various other tactics the group might use.

[monty]

Wizard
Wizard
Wizard
Druid

Druid handles all the direct fighting (if it's ever necessary), wizards handle everything else and buff the druid (if necessary).

Depending on the setting, you might swap out one of the wizards for an artificer for item crafting.

[Kaihaku]

Specialized wizards or generalists? Do each of them use the same tactics/spells (straight out of Batman) or do they divide into roles?

[mikej]

Wizard
Druid
Cleric
Artificer

Wizard of either Conjuration Specialist or Generalist but highly focused on both buffs/debuffs. If Incantatrix is allowed then that would be my best bet.

Druid & Cleric can handle themselves in melee and benefit from the Wizards buffs/debuffs. Straight up Cleric/Druid 20 or some decent PrC that doesn't lose caster level.

Artificer for the trapfinding and excellent item crafting etc etc

[ericgrau]

fighter, bard, monk, sorcerer :P

But seriously this thread is gonna turn into a bunch of quick opinions unless you ask for something more specific. Not really much behind the optimization. When you ask for something more specific then it'll turn into specific opinions, but at least that's a start.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wizard
Wizard
Wizard
Druid

Druid handles all the direct fighting (if it's ever necessary), wizards handle everything else and buff the druid (if necessary).

Depending on the setting, you might swap out one of the wizards for an artificer for item crafting.

And will get hosed by a marathon game.

Look at what you are suggesting. Every single caster is going to have to blow spells EVERY FIGHT to win. There will never be a situation of "Oh, it's just mooks, let the meat shields take care of it", because, other than the Druid, there ARE no meat shields.

In any campaign with time crunch and waves of mooks ,this party will get eaten. For example, Saph's game that just got posted, what, a week or less ago? The one with all the dragons in it.

If you are going to insist on doing this, make one a Warlock, one a Beguiler, one a Batman Conjurer, and the Dr00d.

Dr00d picks up Spontaneous healing feat, mostly stays in wildshape. Warlock blasts to cause 'free' mass death. Hellfire Glaivelock should be more than capable of it.

Conjurer ditches Enchantment and Evocation. Enchantment because the Beguiler has it covered, and Evocation because... well... it sucks. He doesn't ban Illusion because he needs Greater Shadow Evocation for Contingency, Forcecage, and a couple other spells.

[dspeyer]

What level?

At level 20, magic dominates so much that you probably want four mages. At lower levels, you need more diversity.

[Jallorn]

Ranger
Sorcerer/Wizard
Fighter
Bard

Ranger and Fighter handle melee, Bard and Wizard/Sorcerer handle spells, and Ranger and Bard handle scouting. Rather subject to variable of the players of course, but assuming that the player knows how to play their build, it shouldn't be a problem what spells or feats are picked. The Bard can also add some ranged or, if he's strong, melee combat, and both the Fighter and the Ranger can go ranged, though it's less helpful. Just changes their strategy.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Shneekey: Since that third wizard is going to be preparing redundant spells anyway, I agree that you might as well make him a beguiler for some trapfinding/skillmonkeyness, additional spells per day and knowledge of spells the other two wizards won't want to memorize. Oh, and the Beguiler can UMD a wand of lesser vigor, which becomes quite important in those kinds of games.

I really don't think warlock is a good idea, though. He personally might be better for a marathon style game, but having more prep casters means the other casters don't have to use as much of their higher-power resources every combat, improving the daily durability of the party as a whole.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shneekey: Since that third wizard is going to be preparing redundant spells anyway, I agree that you might as well make him a beguiler for some trapfinding/skillmonkeyness, additional spells per day and knowledge of spells the other two wizards won't want to memorize. Oh, and the Beguiler can UMD a wand of lesser vigor, which becomes quite important in those kinds of games.

I really don't think warlock is a good idea, though. He personally might be better for a marathon style game, but having more prep casters means the other casters don't have to use as much of their higher-power resources every combat, improving the daily durability of the party as a whole.

Sometimes the GM gets tired of Batman Wizard-esque shennanigans, and just flat says "No, it's immune to all Save or Screwed, Save or Die... hell, they automatically make ALL saves. NOW what are ya gonna do?" To which the Hellfire Warlock retorts "Over a thousand damage per round... same as always."

Do not underestimate the power of a Hellfire Warlock. Heck, you can't even make critters immune to them, because they specifically bypass normal fire immunity. You can't send SR beasts against them for the same reason. With a Wand of True Strike, you can't even keep them from HITTING you.

[ericgrau]

Well the DM doesn't need to just declare it so. There are monsters like dragons that have a lot of immunities and SR. Their saves aren't too bad either. And I thought the batman wizard's strongest tactic was to haste the martial guy and trap half the enemies so that the martial guy can mop up the other half before the first half recover. Maybe GBSD means disable half the baddies with an AoE save-or-suck or barrier and start using true save-or-dies (not save-or-sucks) against the other half? Well, unless it's a dragon or some such.

[Frosty]

Is it a testament of the Beguiler's power that it gets some mentions in a thread about an OPTIMIZED party?

[monty]

Sometimes the GM gets tired of Batman Wizard-esque shennanigans, and just flat says "No, it's immune to all Save or Screwed, Save or Die... hell, they automatically make ALL saves. NOW what are ya gonna do?" To which the Hellfire Warlock retorts "Over a thousand damage per round... same as always."

Do not underestimate the power of a Hellfire Warlock. Heck, you can't even make critters immune to them, because they specifically bypass normal fire immunity. You can't send SR beasts against them for the same reason. With a Wand of True Strike, you can't even keep them from HITTING you.

If you're going to do that, why not make all monsters have AC >9000. I don't see why you should boost all their defenses except for one. Besides, casters still have Enervation and other no-save spells that work against touch AC, not to mention battlefield control and buffing.

[Jack_Simth]

So, a discussion on group optimization. I'm curious, what would an optimized party look like? Would it simply be Batman Wizards and maybe a GODzilla or two? Or would there be more synergy than that? I'm certain that it is possible for a group to be greater than the sum of its parts, in optimization theory how?

Assume a party of four characters with an optional fifth member. Minmaxing (optimized) is a given but avoid Munchkinism (broken ala Planar Shepherd). It would be interesting to include "combos" and various other tactics the group might use.

Optimized for what?

For fun (fundamentally, it's a game, so this is the point...), optimized means whatever will permit everyone to have the most fun. Mechanically? Munchkinism is a fuzzy concept, and different people have different levels of lactose intolerance. Four DMM(Persistent Spell) Clerics combining group buffs and personal buffs can be murder... especially if they are also Cheaters of Mystria who run around in antimagic fields all day (mind you, that doesn't work, as the Clerics lose access to the Supernatural Turn Undead class feature inside the AMF...).

A Wizard, a Beguiler, a Cleric, and a Druid will also murderize most CR-appropriate opponents at most levels ... assuming they take a few reserve feats (each picks at least one of Fiery Burst, Storm Bolt, Acidic Splatter, Invisible Needle, Winter's Blast, or Summon Elemental (addendum: No overlap on these; everyone uses a different element); everyone gets Heighten Spell, and the Beguiler also needs Arcane Preparation) for the endurance runs. At least one Vampiric Weapon (magic item compendium) is also useful for the endurance runs (uncapped non-combat healing if you also have Summon Elemental). Low HP-types also pick up Minor Shapeshift (at-will swift-action temp HP = Character level), although most will want it. In an AMF, the Druid and Cleric still have reasonable hit dice, reasonable armor access, and reasonable BAB (if they've thought ahead, anyway); in an AMF, the Beguiler is still a competent skill-monkey. In an AMF, the Wizard... makes sure to bring a masterwork light crossbow ... and maybe a Construct or two.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Beguiler, Wizard, Cleric, Druid. Maybe swap the Cleric for an Artificer or Archivist. Really, at this level of play it's a combo of Rocket Launcher Tag and Rock-Paper-Scissors. It comes down to # of different offenses, knowledge of defenses, and speed at hitting those defenses.

[AgentPaper]

Is this for 3.5 only? If so, then I'll agree with Wizard/Druid/Cleric/Artificer.

For 4E, it's a bit more interesting, but I would go with Paladin/Rogue/Warlord/Wizard. Paladin is a Half-Elf, focusing on AC and charisma based attacks. Rogue is a Halfling, with Artful Dodger, and focusing on charisma and dex. Warlord is a Dragonborn, focusing on int and buffing, and giving others more attacks. (especially the rogue, to ensure a SA every round) Wizard is a dwarven staff type, gets in close and attacks with short-range AoE and control type spells. If party needs range, Paladin and Warlord are less useful, but can still use a bow/crossbow. Rogue has a hand crossbow, and wizard has magic missile. The group does it's best at close range, however. Perfect for dungeon-crawling.

[Kalirren]

Beguiler, Cleric, Druid, Ranger, with Artificer as the 5th wheel. I honestly think that between Beguiler, Cleric, and Druid, you really don't need a Wizard. Artificer can feed the Ranger enchanted arrows with single-shot spells on them to achieve battlefield control and/or sheer damage output in nova situations. Cleric, Druid, and Ranger have the endurance for marathons.

The one thing that might be lacking is permanent minions. If the cleric is evil, all is good with undead. If the cleric is good, then the Beguiler has work to do.

[Flickerdart]

Why do you need the Ranger? Beguiler, Cleric, Druid, Psion. Cleric is an excellent beatstick, Druid is two+ beatsticks, Beguiler provides the tricks the others lack and Psion is there to be a more versatile spontaneous caster. Replace the psion with Psychic Warrior if you need more beatstickery, or with the Artificer if item cheese is your thing.

Outside the big 5, Factotum, Psion, Crusader and Warlock will perform excellently.

[Yukitsu]

Incantrix, initiate of mystra, initiate of the seven fold veil and a planar shepherd.

All with leadership, and artificer cohorts.

[dspeyer]

How about these:
Wizard / War Weaver
Bard / Sublime Chord / Virtuoso
Druid 17 / Master of Many Forms 3 (reorder to taste)
Cleric 4 / Crusader 1 / Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 / Church Inquisitor 5

All of them have 9th level spells by level 20.

For melee, there's the cleric throughout, the bard early, and the druid late (plus the animal companion and any summoned creatures). For social interaction, there's the bard. For stealth, there's the druid (he'll need a high int to cover everything, but that's a druid's third most important stat).

More importantly, bardic music, white raven maneuvers and war-woven buffs all stack to make a powerful mutual buffing society. Since the first two apply to "all allies within range", they can be used to make a cloud of low-level summoned creatures effective.

[sonofzeal]

Well, let's see. Wizard's a necessity, of course - you'll need one good source of arcane might, and Wizards get the most versatility. I'd go with a Focussed Specialist here, to maximize number of 9th level spell slots. Let's go with Transmutation, for Shapechange and Timestop, but keep Conjuration open for Gate and Abjuration open for Disjunction; rest is optional. Take the PrC of your choice as soon as possible - Mindbender 1 is good, Incantrix is always win (even for Focussed Specialist), Master Specialist might be worth it. Use your imagination!

Artificer is necessary. By providing crafting for everyone, and making liberal use of cost-reduction feats, he can almost triple the effective buying power all the other members have. That's huge, and will make all the other characters godlike (while being no slouch himself). I'd use the Artificer as the team "skill-monkey", using Disable Trap instead of the Rogue's Trapfinding, and buffing himself to kingdom come with Wands of Weildskill and Skill Enhancement infusions. A Factotum dip might be amusing here, but really is just icing on the cake. I tend to shy away from Blastificers, because while their damage output is enormous, they blow disproportionate amount of gold to do that. Some argue that the DM is "responsible" for reinbursing you for that to keep you by WBL guidelines, but most I've known wouldn't - if you blow gold doing something cool, you're down gold and up something cool, the universe doesn't magically replace your blown gold. Still, some blasting is entirely appropriate. Season to taste.

CoDzilla. I'd go with Druid here; the Artificer will be handling buffs (and can Persist via Metamagic Item Infusion better than a Cleric can), and an extra AC meatshield is always nice. Druids will bring Holly Berry Bombs, Wildshape/Shapechange, summons, and a wide variety of utility effects to the table. Always a solid choice, but I'd go with a Summoner motif here. Even if they die fast, most enemies still have to burn actions disposing of them and they can still play a significant roll in BC and do some nice damage. And you can still Wildshape/Shapechange whenever you want to.

Martial Adept. I like Swordsages here, but most people go with Warblades or Crusaders, and all three are pretty even in terms of power. For this party, I'd go with a Tiger Claw / Shadow Hand Swordsage, for sheer mobility as well as damage output, but you really can't go too wrong with ToB in this slot.

So.....

Focussed Specialist Transmuter Wizard
Skillmonkey Artificer
Summoner Druid
Tiger Claw / Shadow Hand Swordsage

Overall strengths - four wildly different but seriously potent characters. Each will be tackling different kinds of problems, but most can assist eachother no matter the situation. All four start out effective (except maybe Artificer) and all four kinda break the game at the end (except maybe Swordsage). And even without trying to break the game, each is a force to be reckoned with alone, and the total effect should be terrifying.

Overall weaknesses - nobody has better than d8 HD, which could be an issue in an ambush situation, but all four have good methods to help prevent getting ambushed. None of the four will have particularly high Charisma/Diplomacy and there's no real logical "face" to this part, though the Artificer could fill in when needed.

[Draz74]

I gave myself a modified version of this challenge, with Vancian casting and multiclassing (and some personally distasteful "cheese") banned. These restrictions made things much more interesting.

I came up with Warblade, Dragonfire Adept, Ardent, and Factotum.

Otherwise, I second Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Beguiler, with Artificer as a highly desirable 5th Wheel. Though replacing either the Cleric or the Druid with a Crusader wouldn't hurt things too badly.

Considering the Archivist's power, I'm surprised it's not getting mentioned more. I guess it really just doesn't fill any other role than the Wizard's, and the Wizard is just master of his own role.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I have to say, I agree with Frosty that it's interesting that the Beguiler, despite not being one of the Big 5, is being mentioned as a definite part of the party more than either the Artificer or the Archivist.

[Jack_Simth]

I have to say, I agree with Frosty that it's interesting that the Beguiler, despite not being one of the Big 5, is being mentioned as a definite part of the party more than either the Artificer or the Archivist.

Well, the Beguiler is:

1) A full Caster.
2) A good Skill Monkey (6+Int skill points per level with a high Int (primary casting stat), they've got trapfinding, and a very nice skill list).
3) Reasonably defensible (due to the ability to wear light armor without suffering ASF).

While the Beguiler Spell List isn't up to par with the Wizard's... it's big, and it's all spontaneous. It also contains a lot of save-or-lose spells (almost entirely mind-affecting Will, but oh well), lots of defensive spells, and a reasonable set of buffs (Mage Armor, Invisibility, Haste, Greater Invisibility), some manueverability options (Spider Climb, Swift Etherealness, Shadow Walk), and even a bit of combat control (Solid Fog). All they're really missing is decent Divinations, Direct-Damage, and Save-or-Lose spells that aren't Will.

Basically, the Beguiler replaces the sneakiness of the Rogue while still being a very good caster. If you run into a situation where Magic is going to end up being more of a liability than use (traps that use Arcane Sight to determine if someone is a spellcaster, perhaps?) then the skill-monkey aspect comes into play. Basically, the Beguiler makes the list primarily as a Full Caster, and secondarily as a Skill Monkey.

[Flickerdart]

I have to say, I agree with Frosty that it's interesting that the Beguiler, despite not being one of the Big 5, is being mentioned as a definite part of the party more than either the Artificer or the Archivist.

Because Archivist and Artificer are boring and over-used, and don't lend themselves to a wide array of play.

Plus, someone's gotta be the skillmonkey.

[sonofzeal]

Well, the Beguiler is:

1) A full Caster.
2) A good Skill Monkey (6+Int skill points per level with a high Int (primary casting stat), they've got trapfinding, and a very nice skill list).
3) Reasonably defensible (due to the ability to wear light armor without suffering ASF).

While the Beguiler Spell List isn't up to par with the Wizard's... it's big, and it's all spontaneous. It also contains a lot of save-or-lose spells (almost entirely mind-affecting Will, but oh well), lots of defensive spells, and a reasonable set of buffs (Mage Armor, Invisibility, Haste, Greater Invisibility), some manueverability options (Spider Climb, Swift Etherealness, Shadow Walk), and even a bit of combat control (Solid Fog). All they're really missing is decent Divinations, Direct-Damage, and Save-or-Lose spells that aren't Will.

Basically, the Beguiler replaces the sneakiness of the Rogue while still being a very good caster. If you run into a situation where Magic is going to end up being more of a liability than use (traps that use Arcane Sight to determine if someone is a spellcaster, perhaps?) then the skill-monkey aspect comes into play. Basically, the Beguiler makes the list primarily as a Full Caster, and secondarily as a Skill Monkey.

Agreed. The "optimized party" needs a rogue-replacement, and that means a skillmonkey who can find traps. The list for that is pretty short, and Beguiler is fairly obvious as one of the most rogue-like and one of the most powerful. I went with Artificer because he makes everyone else awesome (and having awesome teammates is a wildly underrated class feature), and can function just fine as a trapfinder and skillmonkey. If Artificers couldn't find magical traps, or if they lacked Skill Enhancement Item infusions, I'd have no problem putting a Beguiler on the team. As it is, I like my choice.

(edit)

Because Archivist and Artificer are boring and over-used, and don't lend themselves to a wide array of play.

Plus, someone's gotta be the skillmonkey.

Disagreed. Artificers are bloody awesome skillmonkeys, and have a giant array of options to make them interesting. If you're sick of Blastificers, play with a focus on Effigies/Constructs, or debuffing, or buffing, or diplomancing (scrolls of Glibness ahoy), or skillmonkeying, or make yourself a Clockwork Armor and fight on the front lines, or mastermind from behind the scenes. You can't do all of those effectively at the same time (since each requires substantial gold investment), but you can pick and choose what suits you best. I'd say Artificers are even more flexible for playstyle than Factotums are, although maybe a little less adaptable.

[Lupy]

Let's see... Dungeon Master, Player, Player, Player, Player, Player sounds pretty good.

Or maybe: Defensive Fighter, Brutal Rouge, Two Weapon Ranger, Infernal Warlock, and War Wizard.

The Synergy of your casters and the sheer number of monsters you could kill ought to make up for the lack of a leader.

[dspeyer]

Seeing lots of beguiler isn't all that strange. Leaving a character without 9th level spells seems wrong in an optimization exercise, but a *party* needs a capable skillmonkey. There aren't a lot of good options for full caster/skill-monkeys, and beguiler is probably the strongest of them.

[Frosty]

I have to say, I agree with Frosty that it's interesting that the Beguiler, despite not being one of the Big 5, is being mentioned as a definite part of the party more than either the Artificer or the Archivist.

What about the top 10? Would you place it in the top 10 list?

[dspeyer]

It seems to me we're seeing a lot of parties with very optimized individuals and diversity of talents, but not a whole lot of inter-character synergy. There's got to be some good combinations out there....

The first thing off my head is a wizard/malconvoker/incantrix and a bard/warblade (song of the white raven). What's scarier than summoning 1d3+1 fiendish megaraptors twice a round? All those megaraptors joining in a war master's charge.