[3.5] How can I turn hide check into sneak attacks in melee?

[Paramour Pink]

Hi, this is a really minor question that has completely evaded me so far in answers. I'm already vaguely aware about flanking options, and the importance of initiative for the first round, and I'm at least aware of the potential of surprise round fun. But I don't know how to get those hide checks to turn me into a successful backstabber once a melee fight has already begun.

I've seen it mentioned and implied a few times that once your hide check is high enough, you can sneak attack with impunity. But...I don't understand how it does that. It doesn't seem like my foes are flat-footed, or something, but I don't know. Can someone explain how it works (and also why)? Or if it even works at all for melee rogues?

All help would be appreciated.

[Samb]

Invisible and blink are ways to ensure that your opponents are flaat footed. I use cloak dance to gain concealment and then hide next round or use hustle to move again. Basically it works kind of like hide in plain sight but not nearly as conveient. You don't need to take or use this feat if you have lots of places to hide in, but that depends on how nice your DM is. If you spend a full Round you get total concealment and don't even need to do a hide check.

There are spells and powers that give you concealment and from there you can do a hide check, I personally think cloak dance is a reliable way to do this since there is no limit on how often you can do it and you don't need to beg the casters. And it works in a antimagic field.. Only thng that could trump it is hide in plain sight or something that makes you invisible as a swift action.
A more mundane way is to bluff and then hide but if you had max'd bluff you'd be feinting instead of hiding since it would require 2 successful checks.

[Paramour Pink]

So...just as long as I have some Concealment, even if it's just like 10%, and I'm close enough to attack someone, I can get sneak attack goodness on them without having to do anything else? That's very nifty to know. Thank you.

[Douglas]

No, it's a bit harder than that. Concealment satisfies one of the requirements for hiding, but not all. In addition you must not be observed, even casually, by the person you are hiding from, and someone you are in melee combat with is going to be observing you rather more than casually.

To hide in melee with no special abilities, you must first spend a standard action using bluff to create a distraction, then move and hide. The next round you would be able to attack, getting sneak attack on your first attack only.

If you have Hide in Plain Sight, you can skip the bluff check but you still have to spend a move action on hiding and you have to beat your opponent's spot check to get sneak attack on your single attack.

[Kaiyanwang]

Wilderness Rogue, ACF from Unhearthed Arcana, can reach hide in plain sight at high levels.

With a proper use of magic and even mundane items*, you could be able to obtain SA, even if not at every round.

* smoke grenades from OAdv and some berry able to spread darkness from Forgotten Realms come first in my mind.

[Samb]

yes but total concealment will remove the need to even do even do a hide check. The why hide in plain sight is so good is because you can let you hide, even without concealment, as part of an action so you hide and do a full attack in the same round. Cloak dance sacs a move action for concealment so you can only do SA on one attack as opposed to the 2-6 you could do with hide in plain sight.


One of the best ways to bypass this without taking shadowdancer by using hustle. Of course this makes a 4 lvl dip into psiwarrior needed. But you get some powers and two bonus feats which in most cases makes up for it.

[Another_Poet]

Also, for the record there is no such thing as 10% concealment.

There's only partial concealment (20% miss chance on attacks) and total concealment (50% miss chance on attacks). You can use partial concealment as a place to hide, but you still need to follow the bluff/distract, move, hide routine outlined by Douglas above.

In total concealment you are automatically hidden and can make sneak attacks without making a hide check at all. However, chances are that if you are in total concealment you also can't see your opponent and thus your own attacks also suffer a 50% miss chance, if you can even figure out what square to attack which requires a Listen check.

The above is if we're talking 3.5 here; I duno about 4e.

[Kaiyanwang]

Well if even the opponent is in concealment you cannot sneak attack him at all, barring miss chance..

[Curmudgeon]

Basically, a Hide check superior to an opponent's Spot makes you visually undetectable.

Invisible

Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any).

You get the same benefits as being invisible, but a higher Spot check rather than See Invisibility is the counter.

If there's general concealment (such as from Darkness), you can't sneak attack:

A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

So generally you either need cover rather than concealment for your Hide check, or concealment in your square but not in an adjacent enemy's square, to use Hide to sneak attack in melee.

There's another way, though: the Move between Cover use of Hide (see Complete Adventurer). Basically you subtract 1 from your Hide check for every foot you move away from cover. If you succeed on your check, you're still hidden -- even in the open. That's how you can sneak attack without Hide in Plain Sight.

[Samb]

Now I'm confused about hide and concealment. I thought you can hide then drop concealment and SA next Round?

Don't bother with bluffing then hiding because feint will make your target flatfooted anyways.

[Myrmex]

Also, for the record there is no such thing as 10% concealment.

There's only partial concealment (20% miss chance on attacks) and total concealment (50% miss chance on attacks). You can use partial concealment as a place to hide, but you still need to follow the bluff/distract, move, hide routine outlined by Douglas above.

In total concealment you are automatically hidden and can make sneak attacks without making a hide check at all. However, chances are that if you are in total concealment you also can't see your opponent and thus your own attacks also suffer a 50% miss chance, if you can even figure out what square to attack which requires a Listen check.

The above is if we're talking 3.5 here; I duno about 4e.

I believe concealment in 3.0 came in increments of 10%.

[Lycanthromancer]

The fellmist cloak soulmeld from Magic of Incarnum can grant 10% concealment.

Also, that dip into psychic warrior can net you concealing amorpha, which will grant you concealment, but not your foes.

Of course, you can get it from an item, too, if you take ranks in UPD (or UMD if your DM allows for skills transparency).

[Starbuck_II]

Also, for the record there is no such thing as 10% concealment.

Yes, I even have the book with it. Hyperconscious had a 1st level power that granted that. It stacks with other forms of concealment at 1/2 rate (so +5%).

It was okay but itself though.

[Draz74]

I hope this clears everything up:

If you attack from a hidden condition, you gain an extra +2 on your attack roll (as if invisible), in addition to the target losing their Dex-to-AC. That latter part, losing Dex-to-AC, also means your attack deals Sneak Attack. The Blind-Fight feat will nullify this whole aspect.

To become hidden, you normally need 4 things:

1. Spend a move action (during which you can also move)
2. Beat their Spot check with your Hide check
3. Have cover or concealment (at some point during your move)
4. Not have their attention focused on you

Also, on #2, you take a -20 penalty to your Hide check if you attempt to hide again in the same round after you have attacked them. Even sniping doesn't take care of this requirement.

Requirement #4 is the tricky one. However, there are a few ways to deal with it:

• If your attack is using a ranged weapon from at least 10 feet away, you can use the Sniping rules to avoid the usual rule of "once you attack them, their attention is automatically focused on you."
• If you have total concealment rather than just concealment, their attention can't be on you. (Note that anytime you have total cover from an opaque source, you also have total concealment for these purposes.)
• You can use the Bluff skill as a standard action to satisfy #4 too. Note that this has nothing to do with Feinting, except that they both use the Bluff skill.
• Finally, the Hide in Plain Sight ability satisfies #4 all on its own (provided you meet certain conditions, e.g. being in a natural environment or not being in direct daylight).

There are also some ways to get rid of requirement #3:

• The Camouflage ability gets rid of it in some terrains.
• Some versions of Hide in Plain Sight get rid of this too, along with getting rid of #4. Typically, these are the [Su] versions of HiPS, not the [Ex] versions. Read the HiPS ability you're getting carefully.

The easiest way to get HiPS (if you're not a Ranger or Scout), especially the [Su] version, is the Dark template (LA+1), or the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis item that mimics the Dark template. Both are found in Tome of Magic in the Shadow Magic section. The "classic" way to gain [Su] HiPS is 2 levels of Shadowdancer, which is not considered optimal due to ugly prerequisites.

My favorite way to gain constant concealment, if you're not a Psychic Warrior or Incarnate or another class that gives an easy method, is Armor of Greater Blurring from the Magic Item Compendium.

[Swooper]

Didn't read the whole thread, but, by RAW:

Carry a tower shield. Use it to gain concealment. While you have concealment, you can roll Hide checks. Hide checks hide you and your equipment, including that tower shield you're hiding behind. It's completely idiotic, but it's technically RAW

[Person_Man]

First, you might find this info helpful:

Spoiler

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Sneak Attack feats. Feat index.

The four most important Sneak Attack feats:

Dragonfire Strike: Turns your Sneak Attack damage into energy damage, bypassing Precision Damage immunity, assuming your DM is nice about it (some argue that you must first deal the Sneak Attack damage before it becomes energy damage).

Staggering Strike: Staggers enemy for 1 round when you Sneak Attack them with a melee attack. Ridiculously useful against boss enemies, in that it prevents them from making a full attack or casting a full round action spells.

Craven: +1 damage per character level on every Sneak Attack. The equivalent of Power Attack without reducing your To-Hit bonus.

Darkstalker: Enemies with Tremorsense, Scent, Blindsight, etc, must still make a Spot check in order to locate you when you Hide.


Ways to Qualify for Sneak Attack:

Spoiler

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1) Ambush: If you ambush your enemy, you get a free Surprise Round against them. A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act.
Remember the the Surprise Round is only a Standard Action. So you'll need Greater Manyshot or Pounce (remember that you can still Charge if your actions are limited) to get a full attack.

2) Win Initiative: If you win Initiative, you enemy is still Flat Footed, and still denied their Dex bonus.

3) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures.

4) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap and easy to train.

5) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

6) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII) allows you to flank from any square. Combine with a reach weapon, and now you can stand next to or even behind a friend and still flank an enemy.

7) Dear Gods, How Much Flanking Do We Need?: Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar, if you can cast arcane spells. Now you have a full time friend to Flank with, and he can Share Spells with you (like Alter Self and Greater Invisibility).

8) Armor Lock: 1st level spell from Complete Scoundrel that works on enemies wearing armor. Buy a wand.

9) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

10) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) to ignore your 20% miss chance.

11) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful.

12) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

13) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

14) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

15) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

16) Hide in Plain Site: There are many ways to get this. My favorite is a dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

17) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members.

18) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable. Though I would invest in Spell Storing weapons, and find spells that deal Dex damage/penalties.

19) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're not using TWF, and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat (Drow of the Underdark), it works for a full attack.

20) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit, WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO.

OK, now that's out of the way...

Using Hide is a good way to to ambush your enemy. You find concealment. Usually this is shadowy illumination (ie, a dark dungeon) or natural terrain (tress, brush, etc). You sneak up on them (make a Hide and Move Silently Check). Then you attack them. If your enemies fail their Spot and Listen checks, you get a Surprise Round. Your enemies are Flat Footed until they act. So if you also win Initiative, then that's potentially 2 full attacks that all qualify for Sneak Attack.

Alternatively, you can get Hide in Plain Site. This let's you Hide every round, and apply Sneak Attack to the first attack you make each round against an enemy who failed their opposed checks against you. (Because once theyre aware of you, they are no longer denied their Dex bonus). In general this is inefficient, as there are plenty of other ways to get Sneak Attack on every attack. But it can be exploited.

[BRC]

Question, Can you just stand still and HiPS to get sneak attacks. The way I read the rules was that you hide as part of a move action. I've had a character that combines Hide in plain sight and Spring Attack. Pop out of hiding, Sneak attack, pop back into hiding with the second part of your move action. It also means that your opponents can't just swing at the square you were attacking from with a 50% chance of hitting you.

[Draz74]

Question, Can you just stand still and HiPS to get sneak attacks. The way I read the rules was that you hide as part of a move action. I've had a character that combines Hide in plain sight and Spring Attack. Pop out of hiding, Sneak attack, pop back into hiding with the second part of your move action. It also means that your opponents can't just swing at the square you were attacking from with a 50% chance of hitting you.

Yes, you can do this, but you have to deal with several issues.

• Your Hide checks take a -20 penalty in the same round when you have attacked someone.
• You still need cover or concealment to Hide again, depending on the version of HiPS you have. (Unless you have camouflage too ... I guess this issue mainly comes up with the Dark Template version of HiPS.)
• You're only getting 1 attack per round, so you have to ask yourself if it's really worth it.

[Kaiyanwang]

[*]You're only getting 1 attack per round, so you have to ask yourself if it's really worth it. [/LIST]

Well, there are ambush feats and other similar things viable for rogues that slow stagger or incapaciate temporarely the enemy... Maybe this is not the strategy that bring to more damage but is very fun, at least in my point of view.

More, if you hide away, let the enemy continue to spread blood on the ground, asking to finish him off...

[BRC]

Yes, you can do this, but you have to deal with several issues.

• Your Hide checks take a -20 penalty in the same round when you have attacked someone.
• You still need cover or concealment to Hide again, depending on the version of HiPS you have. (Unless you have camouflage too ... I guess this issue mainly comes up with the Dark Template version of HiPS.)
• You're only getting 1 attack per round, so you have to ask yourself if it's really worth it.

The NPC in question had a HiPS that allowed him to hide provided he was within 10 feet of a shadow besides his own. I only saw the -20 penalty for Sniping (Making a ranged attack and then immediately hiding again without moving). Considering the purpose of this NPC, only one attack was a fair trade for the awesomness/ the enemy essentially being unable to hit him.

[Curmudgeon]

Now I'm confused about hide and concealment. I thought you can hide then drop concealment and SA next Round?

You can't (except for some special class abilities) "drop concealment". Concealment is generally an environmental condition, such as in shadowy conditions. For you to sneak attack as "visually undetectable" you need to either be invisible or make a successful Hide check. If you're concealed and not being observed, you're allowed to Hide. But if the target is concealed, you're not allowed to sneak attack them.

Don't bother with bluffing then hiding because feint will make your target flatfooted anyways.

Firstly, feinting will not ever make your target flatfooted. It can (if successful) make them lose their DEX bonus to AC for your next attack (only), but has no effect on their ability to see you, their AC versus anybody else, or for other than your next single attack. Secondly, hiding gives you decent protection against all enemies, whereas feinting gives you no protection at all. Thirdly, feinting is generally hard because the opponent gets to add their BAB to their Sense Motive check to oppose it, meaning they get "free" feint resistance just by being a martial type (i.e., having good BAB).

[Draz74]

The NPC in question had a HiPS that allowed him to hide provided he was within 10 feet of a shadow besides his own.

That still doesn't answer whether he needed cover or concealment to hide, or whether HiPS allowed him to ignore that requirement. He still needs cover or concealment unless HiPS (the version being used) explicitly says otherwise, or says "without anything to hide behind."

However, it's most likely that the HiPS in question was the Shadowdancer version, since it's Core and has the "within 10 feet of a shadow" clause. In which case, yes, it contains the "without anything to hide behind" clause too.

I only saw the -20 penalty for Sniping (Making a ranged attack and then immediately hiding again without moving).

It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

That applies to your Spring Attacking scenario. There was an FAQ or a Sage Advice answer dealing with this very scenario, and it confirmed that you still have to deal with the -20 penalty. The only thing special about Sniping is that it never lets the enemy get a look at you, so you don't need HiPS or a Bluff check or whatever to get them to look away while you re-hide.

Note, however, that a dedicated stealthy build can often succeed on its Hide checks even with the penalty. So the spring-attack-hide tactic is tough but not inconsiderable.

Considering the purpose of this NPC, only one attack was a fair trade for the awesomness/ the enemy essentially being unable to hit him.

That's fine.

[lsfreak]

Person_Man, don't forget to add the Island of Blades stance for those dipping into Swordsage. As long as you one one ally are both adjacent to an enemy, it's flanked. You need to pick up a first-level stance anywho, and it seems to be one of the better ones for a rogue-type.

There's a number of other maneuvers that let you pull something off. A couple give concealment (so you can make hide checks), one is just straight invisibility as the spell. One lets you move, make an attack, and keep your hide and move silent checks as if you didn't attack. If you're taking a mid-to-late level dip in swordsage, those could help as well.

[Atamasama]

Firstly, feinting will not ever make your target flatfooted. It can (if successful) make them lose their DEX bonus to AC for your next attack (only), but has no effect on their ability to see you, their AC versus anybody else, or for other than your next single attack. Secondly, hiding gives you decent protection against all enemies, whereas feinting gives you no protection at all. Thirdly, feinting is generally hard because the opponent gets to add their BAB to their Sense Motive check to oppose it, meaning they get "free" feint resistance just by being a martial type (i.e., having good BAB).

The Brigand class from the Kingdoms of Kalamar supplement is excellent when it comes to feinting. I currently play one in a 3.5 game, and the class gets an automatic bonus to the bluff skill (I believe it's +4). At level 8 I have an 18 Charisma and have kept bluff maxed each level. That gives me a +19 to the skill. I also have the Improved Feint feat, which lets me do a feint as a move action, so that once within range of the enemy I can feint and attack in the same round. At my level I get 3D6 bonus damage from a sneak attack and with my bluff score it's rare that an enemy sees through my feints. I don't use it all the time, I'd rather flank someone so that I can do a full attack (and get my sneak attack on multiple hits instead of just one), and it doesn't work against creatures of animal intelligence or lower, but it's a great trick to have up my sleeve. It's especially handy against a really quick enemy who doesn't have a lot of armor.

[Darrin]

Yes, you can do this, but you have to deal with several issues.

• Your Hide checks take a -20 penalty in the same round when you have attacked someone.
• You still need cover or concealment to Hide again, depending on the version of HiPS you have. (Unless you have camouflage too ... I guess this issue mainly comes up with the Dark Template version of HiPS.)
• You're only getting 1 attack per round, so you have to ask yourself if it's really worth it.

What about using Blend Into Shadows (DotU) to HiPS as a swift action? Could you pop up hiding, full attack with sneak attack on each hit, and then hide again with a -20 on your Hide check?

[Curmudgeon]

What about using Blend Into Shadows (DotU) to HiPS as a swift action? Could you pop up hiding,

Yes.

full attack with sneak attack on each hit,

No. As a swift action, you can use Blend into Shadows to enable one Hide check (even while being observed and without cover or concealment) in a round. No full attacks (unless your full attack is one swing).

and then hide again with a -20 on your Hide check?

No; you would have used up your one shot on the first swing of the full attack.

The Assassin/Shadowdancer Hide in Plain Sight is much superior. It enables a Hide check whenever you are within 10' of any shadow except your own, in any action where a Hide check is permitted. A Shadowdancer can make full attacks while hiding on each swing (with a -20 penalty):

It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

[Samb]

I think I should be able to attack out of total concealment provided by cloak dance.... Esp when it specifically says you gain total concealment until the start of your next turn. So the co cealment should have dropped by the time I can an attack right?

I disagree on the effectivness of feint. If maxed out and with decent CHR and synergies there should not be any target you can't feint. Sense motive is only really seen in very few npcs and almost never seen in combat. I used an invisible blade and only failed my feint 4 times if that many.

You need more than one way to deal out SA since there is a counter to almost any method. Does no DMs use improved dodge anymore.

[Atamasama]

I disagree on the effectivness of feint. If maxed out and with decent CHR and synergies there should not be any target you can't feint. Sense motive is only really seen in very few npcs and almost never seen in combat. I used an invisible blade and only failed my feint 4 times if that many.

Agreed with this, I've only had a few problems with using feint. Again with the disclaimers about the enemy being intelligent enough to fall for it, and acknowledging that you only get one sneak attack out of it. But when the situation won't allow you to do a sneak attack otherwise, it's great.

[Eldariel]

Problem is that even then, it only makes you able to do one SA. It's generally better to focus on means to make opponent flat-footed and get your full attacks. Darkstalker, Penetrating Strike, UMD et co. help a ton with regards to that.

[Curmudgeon]

I think I should be able to attack out of total concealment provided by cloak dance....

No, you can't do that. You can attack out of regular concealment if you use the move action option of Cloak Dance, so you can make one Hide check; that will permit one standard action attack, or an AoO, with sneak attack.

Esp when it specifically says you gain total concealment until the start of your next turn.

No, Cloak Dance doesn't say that. You can only get total concealment if you use a full-round action, and then it only lasts until your next action -- so no attacks while you've got total concealment. Or you can use a move action to get regular concealment, in which case it lasts until your next turn.

So the co cealment should have dropped by the time I can an attack right?

Yes for total concealment, and only if you wait until the next turn turn for regular concealment. But why would you want the concealment, which is only on you, to drop? As soon as that happens you no longer can remain hidden, so you can't sneak attack.