ToB (gestalt)

[Eloel]

I have a few questions on gestalt builds with ToB

Is there a way to get Shadow Hand discipline to a Warblade?

What class would work well with Swordsage (If you haven't noticed, Shadow Hand)?
I thought Rogue, but the overlap of skill-points, class skills and saves are annoying. The rogue levels only give +2 skillpoints per level, and sneak attack (the important one!).
I also thought of Lurk, but it doesn't reach the sneak-attack efficiency I had in mind, it's only 1/round.

I'm thinking a 'Sneak Attack Fighter' right now, but those are quite under-powered, there has to be a better option.


I may also go Ninja for Sudden Strike, but I like Sneak Attack more.

[Draz74]

Ways to give a Warblade Shadow Hand maneuvers:

• Multiclass Swordsage
• Martial Study feats
• Master of Nine PrC
• Shadow Hands item

Good gestalt combos for Swordsage (assuming you aren't trying to become largely a caster, e.g. Druid//Swordsage, which is of course extremely strong) are Ranger and Paladin, actually.

Ranger: Free TWF feats
Paladin: more HP, no skill points wasted, Battle Blessing feat
Both: full BAB, decent WIS synergy, good Fortitude saves

[Swooper]

I've played in a group with a Swordsage//Rogue, and trust me, those kick ass. Island of Blades + full sneak attack + TWF with a pair of shortswords + Shadowblade = Ouch.

[sonofzeal]

I've played in a group with a Swordsage//Rogue, and trust me, those kick ass. Island of Blades + full sneak attack + TWF with a pair of shortswords + Shadowblade = Ouch.

Yeah, Swordsages and Rogues get great synergy. A lot of Shadow Hand works well with sneak attack stuff, but in the interests of variety you might want to consider all your options.

Sneak Attacking Base Classes (that I'm aware of)
Rogue
Variant Fighter
Lurk
Psychic Rogue
Factotum
Scout (different mechanic, still useful)

[Riffington]

Don't discount the garden-variety Fighter. You already have plenty of special tricks and skills as a swordsage; the fighter's full BAB and feats add quite well to that. You'll be able to do everything but cast.

[Temp.]

Does that Martial Stalker feat in Complete Scoundrel stack Fighter and Ninja for Sudden Strike or just AC? If it does SS, I could see it being worthwhile.


Otherwise, I like the idea of a Psychic Warrior/Psychic Assassin. Or Shadowmind, I guess, but that's kinda iffy.

Or Cloistered Cleric/Shadowbane Stalker. Maybe dip a level of Sneak Attack fighter at level one for an expanded skill list, early Weapon Finesse, increased SA, boosted Fort saves and high level 1 HP. It also makes SS qualification a bit more legitimate.

[Lycanthromancer]

Psychic warrior beats the crud out of the fighter throughout the spread from 1-20, except possibly level 1, and even then it's a tossup, wholly dependent on build. Sure, you don't get full BAB, but you get nearly as many feats, you get powers that augment your maneuvers nicely, and it allows you to abuse action economy very well.

As for my suggestion for the other side of the gestalt (aside from egoist, nomad, or psychic warrior), is the factotum. It has a great many passive abilities that will boost you greatly, allows you to get bonuses on attacks, damage, and saving throws by using a mechanic that recharges per encounter (much like maneuvers do), and at later levels allows you to gain additional standard actions for casting spell-like abilities or initiating strikes.

Getting additional maneuvers each round is NIIIIICE.

[Draz74]

I think a Gestalt combo with Swordsage really should have full BAB.

Though maybe 17/20 is good enough (Psychic Warrior 10/Slayer 10). I actually like that idea even better than the Ranger or Paladin suggestion I made earlier.

Wow, yeah. How about:

Swordsage 15/Master of Nine 5 // Ranger 2/Psychic Warrior 3/Slayer 10/Psychic Warrior +5

with BAB +18, Manifester Level 17, extreme WIS focus, and a Monk-like lack of dependence on armor? And the awesome Instant Clarity feat.

[Dyllan]

I'd suggest the other side be just enough scout to qualify for the feat that gives skirmish advancement as a ranger, then add in ranger.

Make liberal use of the second level ranger spell that gives you sneak attack based on your caster level. That, combined with full skirmish advancement as a rogue will give you a nice bit of extra damage. You'll be just a tad behind full BAB on that side, and have the ranger TWF feats.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, there's several things you can pair with Swordsage...

'Thug' variant Fighter with Sneak Attack is certainly an option. It brings d10 HD, Sneak Attack progression, and full BAB which you are looking for to suppliment the Swordsage's Shadow Hand (and if you are relying heavily on precision-based damage, Tiger Claw is also going to be invaluable to you to apply it more often). It also brings a much-needed high Fort save to the table.

However, it doesn't have anything but that. Mechanically, it's rather weak tea. Useful for starting into a PrC which further advances sneak attack, but that is about it.

So, for a build, you might want to look at Swordsage20//Thug Fighter5/Bloodclaw Master2/Nightsong Enforcer10/Shadowdancer1/xxx1

You get the following:

7d6 Sneak Attack base, +2d6 from Assassin's Stance if you find yourself in an ideal situation.
Skill Teamwork (giving other players bonuses on a lot of situationally critical skills)
Status effect on all teammates
Opportunist
The ability to apply full Strength damage (or Dex, if using Shadow Blade feat) to offhand attacks, and negate TWF penalties
HiPS

Much better than just the sneak attack damage, eh?

[playswithfire]

Barbarian//Swordsage can be fun, particularly if you go with Half-Giant or Goliath and use Setting Sun. Wolf totem gets you Improved Trip without Combat Expertise or 13 INT

Sneak attack variant fighter may be another good option.

Rogue/Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I would pick Desert Wind for your first Discipline Focus to get Weapon Focus: Scimitar, and go Sneak Attack Fighter 5/ Dervish 10/ Tempest 5.

[Ernir]

Barbarian//Swordsage can be fun

That is currently #2 on my "Gestalt characters I must play" list.

Then go Bear Warrior. Because a bear with rage ability and Swordsage maneuvers is cool enough to freeze the material plane solid. Is it any good? Does it even work? No idea, but I want it.

(At least it has all good saves, 12-sided HD and full BAB progression. )

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That is currently #2 on my "Gestalt characters I must play" list.

Then go Bear Warrior. Because a bear with rage ability and Swordsage maneuvers is cool enough to freeze the material plane solid. Is it any good? Does it even work? No idea, but I want it.

(At least it has all good saves, 12-sided HD and full BAB progression. )

Even better... go unarmed swordsage so your attacks as a bear warrior are like 4d6 due to size...

however, you cannot use maneuvers while Raging...

[Draz74]

however, you cannot use maneuvers while Raging...

Why not? (Other than Diamond Mind maneuvers that require Concentration checks)

[Random NPC]

Kalashtar Unarmed Swordsage//Psychic Warrior

That there, is THE Psychic Monk

[Agrippa]

For some strange reason I really like the idea of an unarmed swordsage/paladin gestalt, especialy if its Shadow Hand and Setting Sun focued. A silent guardian, a watchful protector and a dark knight. Yes, I'm talking about a supernaturally endowed Batman, partly from the darkness he embraces and clings to and partly from his own righteousness. Protecting, avenging and bringing comfort to the innocent while bringing terror to the wicked. I'd play that.

[monty]

Then go Bear Warrior. Because a bear with rage ability and Swordsage maneuvers is cool enough to freeze the material plane solid. Is it any good? Does it even work? No idea, but I want it.

But is it cool enough to wear sunglasses at night?

[dspeyer]

Instead of Bear Warrior you could go with Druidic Avenger. You can still be a raging bear, but at higher levels that becomes a raging tyrannosaur -- plus lots of spells. You drop to 3/4 BAB and d8 HD, but the other bonuses will probably be more, and you can heal yourself (take spontaneous healer from CD).

[Eldariel]

I would pick Desert Wind for your first Discipline Focus to get Weapon Focus: Scimitar, and go Sneak Attack Fighter 5/ Dervish 10/ Tempest 5.

Mayhap Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3 is better? I mean, Fighter 5 grants you one feat for 3 levels; at least Swashbuckler has the grace to give you some damage bonuses, Weapon Finesse and random benefits over the same span. If not, Ranger is better too than the dead Fighter-level(s).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sneak Attack Fighter from UA/SRD gives the Rogue sneak attack progression instead of bonus feats, which would be 1d6 at level 1, 2d6 at level 3, and 3d6 at level 5, so the 5th level is no longer a dead level. Swordsage is already a Wis-based class, so going Swashbuckler would cause more MAD.

[Eldariel]

Sneak Attack Fighter from UA/SRD gives the Rogue sneak attack progression instead of bonus feats, which would be 1d6 at level 1, 2d6 at level 3, and 3d6 at level 5, so the 5th level is no longer a dead level. Swordsage is already a Wis-based class, so going Swashbuckler would cause more MAD.

Meh, it isn't entirely impossible to ask DM to use the Monk-feats for SS instead to transfer the dependency into Int (Kung-fu Genius/Carmendine Monk). This is further amplified by the fact that the build already needs Combat Expertise so it's 13 Int minimum.

SA Fighter has the dire problem that Dervish is extremely feat intensive and SA Fighter doesn't grant feats, so as long as Dervish stays, you'll need bonus feat sources.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

For some strange reason I really like the idea of an unarmed swordsage/paladin gestalt, especialy if its Shadow Hand and Setting Sun focued. A silent guardian, a watchful protector and a dark knight. Yes, I'm talking about a supernaturally endowed Batman, partly from the darkness he embraces and clings to and partly from his own righteousness. Protecting, avenging and bringing comfort to the innocent while bringing terror to the wicked. I'd play that.

You'd need Greyguard levels to avoid falling harder than the asteroid that cracked Pangea...

Having said that, you'd almost do better with Ranger than Paladin. I mean, come on... track, camo, HiPS...