Shifting and the weretouched master, the confusion continues!

[Arzc]

Considering the reaction to my apparent thread necromancy (yay for being the new guy and making mistakes!) I've decided to shift this topic to its own thread, hopefully with better results

Without further adeu, the abomination:

Warblade 7/Weretouched Master 5

hp 143, 179 in Tiger forms, 191 with shifting

AC 24 (10 + 10 (mithral breastplate) + 3 + 1(Monk's Belt)), 30 Tiger (2 more from dex, 5 more from natural armor, -1 from large size), 32 shifting (2 more from beasthide)

DR 4/silver shifting

Initiative 3, 5 tiger

Str 22 (+6), 34 (+12)tiger, 36 (+13)shifting
Dex 17(+3), 21 (+5) tiger
Con 18 (+4), 24 (+7)tiger, 26 (+8)shifting
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 8

Fort 18, Reflex 14, Will 8

BAB 10/5

Attacks
Claw 1d8 (from Monk's Belt), 2d6 tiger, +16 attk bonus
Greatsword, masterwork crystal, 2d6, +17/+12

Grapple 16, 23 tiger

Feats
Able Learner (Races of Destiny)
Power Attack
Shifter + G. Shifter Def
Martial Study x2
Martial Stance x2
Uncanny + Imp. Uncanny Dodge

For any confusion concerning his claw damage and the mention of the Monk's Belt, check the rules presented in Savage Species concerning natural attacks and monk damage progression, as well as the D&D Wiki entry for the item and it's properties.

I'll post martial maneuvers if some1 asks for em, but the main thing I'd like to discover is the benefits of shifting. I've checked multiple Eberron books, errata included, and nothing says I can't shift before morphing into hybrid Tiger and not keep the benefits of the shift, also, with this case, the text for beasthide states that it increases natural armor by +2; by that technicality of text, my natural armor in Tiger becomes +7 for the duration of the shift, which only goes longer thanks to the +6 constitution from going Tiger, and if the shift does stack, the +2 from beasthide.

So put simply, does/can shifting, if used prior to going hybrid tiger, stack with the benefits of said transformation?

If any1 can help me clear up this confusion I would be really grateful, cause Im planning on using this guy as a backup for my campaign, I've already lost my first character after he became a plot point thanks to the wims of my GM, and my 2nd character looks like he's being sucked into the same hole.

[CthulhuM]

I would say that no, it does not. You could argue that your character can spend one use of shifting to turn into an animal form "instead of using his normal shifting ability" and then later spend another use of shifting to shift normally, but frankly that's overpowered, and kinda nonsensical ("I turn into a tiger. Then I turn into a more tigery tiger.")

It's also somewhat moot, because the ability was erratad into uselessness if you're going to go by official rules (As in, it now acts as polymorph - you turn into a tiger and gain its stats, not its stats modifiers. You also can't wield weapons and such, since you're actually a tiger, not a hybrid tiger-human.)

I have a character who took weretouched master in my campaign, and went with something of a compromise ruling (since the alternate form ability is somewhat overpowered in its original form). I required him to shift normally (gaining his usual shifting benefits, plus the bonuses to shifting weretouched master grants), and then the following turn he can spend another use of shifting to turn into the hybrid form as the original ability described. He's still kinda ridiculously powerful (i.e. 300 damage full attacks under ideal circumstances), but at least there's some sort of tradeoff.

For the record, if you want to optimize a bit, you should pick up a level of barbarian (plus extra rage to make up for your single use), and Shifter Savagery (from RoE). While raging and shifting (which is nasty enough as-is) the feat steps up the damage on all your natural attacks two size categories, and doubles your crit range with all natural weapons.

[Zincorium]

Seriously, good on you for learning the ways of the place quickly.

Now...

The errata for weretouched master does seriously nerf the class. Not to the point where it's never worth taking, but to where it's not nearly as useful as it would seem. As a DM, of course, you can ignore the errata, but you should be aware in case a player brings it up somehow (hey, it happens).

Here's the real kicker to a shifter: Warshaper. You can qualify as soon as you take your fourth level of warblade, and the abilities work as long as you're using your shifting, by the rules as written. Complete warrior page 90, and seriously, look at the darn abilities. I've always ruled it out for PCs because it gives way too much good stuff with no drawbacks.

[Arzc]

Ok, so I've looked at the errata, and wow, that is indeed a nerf. I should be happy in the fact that my DM enjoys making OP characters for his PCs to fight, but he also really enjoys legality, and so do I, so I may end up taking warshaper (though I think my DM has ruled it), either that or the bloodclaw master from ToB, just for extra martial progression. Also, yes, shifter ferocity is frightening, especially with the monk belt, which makes the size category damage increase culminate to a wonderful 3d6.

[Nate the Snake]

I read the Weretouched Master's alternate form as an improvement to your shifting bonuses, so I would say normal shifting wouldn't stack with it (even after it was errata'ed into a polymorph effect). You shift to become an animal or a "lycanthrope lite," but not both.

Also, your character technically doesn't qualify for Able Learner, unless a houserule removes the racial prerequisite or gives shifters the human subtype. (Just clarifying; I enjoy legality, too. )

[Arzc]

Wow, I pretty much completely forgot about the restrictions of Able Learner, haven't looked at RoD in a while, and forgot its pretty much human only. Thanks for pointing that out, which incidentally makes this whole character (aside from the errata bat to the genitals) illegal, and I'd prefer he not be, but it looks like my original concept is long dead.