So, how about that 7th Sea...?

[Ascension]

I'm probably about to join a game of 7th Sea (to be played over AIM) and, well, I'm completely new to the system. I have had the barest minimum of an introduction to the setting, but I have yet to even see the rules (this will obviously be rectified before the game begins, but it hasn't happened yet). So, uhh... is there anything I should know heading into this? You know, the 7th Sea equivalent of the standard 3.5 "Don't take Toughness, Monks are underpowered, Druids rock, two-hand beats sword-and-board" intro? What would you tell a total n00b (for that is what I am)?

[Kiero]

It's not really a big deal, but the setting makes no sense. You've got Caribbean-style piracy, only with no Caribbean-analogue. They did try to rectify that later, but it still kind of missed the point.

[Satyr]

I always thought it was more based on Dumas and classical musqueteer literature instead of pirates. The setting is still terrible, but not because of the non-emphasis of pirates. It is terrible because it extremely ovious copies the early modern Europe, but replace it with dull and one dimensional stereotypes of the real countries and their inhabitants. I never got the point why anyone could be interested in such a stale and trite remake of a much more interesting, flexible and colorful background, in this case Europe during the era of Absolutism.

The other problem of 7th sea is, that the characters are slightly weak for the heroic figures they are meant to represent; but as the almost archetypical style over substance game of narrative plots and player empowerment, there are little to no truly substandard character choices; your character will not die ever if you do not chose his demise. Just don't try to build a character who tries to be a spellcaster and a weapon master at the same time; while this is theoretically possible, the character will in the end have many options of categories in which he chose to fail.

[Quincunx]

I believe there was both an original stat system and a revamp. This deals with the original. There is a stat (Panache?) which governs how many times you can act in a round. If you have ANY intention of being a combat monkey, RAISE IT from its baseline. The cost is steep at character creation, afterwards astronomical, but thoroughly worth it. Unlike the other multiple-actions-in-a-round stats I've seen, it also gives you two separate. . .er. . .call them initiative scores. Nothing says "dramatic flourish" like spearing someone with a foil, bowing from the waist while (on your ally's action which fell between your two actions) your ally stabs over your bowed back and into the enemy, then straightening up on your second turn and kicking them off of your blade for extra damage.

[potatocubed]

Yeah, there was a 'roll and keep' version and a d20 version, but no-one likes to d20 version.

Useful things in 7th Sea:
- Languages! Take the Linguist merit and speak as many as you possibly can.
- Take a swordsman school or sorcery. You can, theoretically, get by with neither but you'll miss out on a lot of cool tricks.
- Porte is less useful than you'd think.
- Not all swordsman schools are equal. Avoid the Eisen-based 'generalship' ones unless you're going to be in several huge battles. Avoid the bow and crossbow ones. Avoid Gelingen unless the GM lets you learn the Exploit Weakness knack for other swordsmen schools, when it suddenly becomes win.
- Don't ask to take Zerstören. For crying out loud.

Other than that - and that's more advice than 'rules' - pick whatever you think would make your character cool.

[Ascension]

It's not really a big deal, but the setting makes no sense. You've got Caribbean-style piracy, only with no Caribbean-analogue. They did try to rectify that later, but it still kind of missed the point.

Yeah, given that the hook with which the GM is recruiting for this game is pretty much "Look, pirates!" it doesn't seem to mesh all that well with the Europe-in-stereotype mode that the setting seems to be stuck in. That being said, I'm not really going to be trying to overthink this one. A nonsensical setting doesn't really bother me, because, hey, pirates.

I believe there was both an original stat system and a revamp. This deals with the original. There is a stat (Panache?) which governs how many times you can act in a round. If you have ANY intention of being a combat monkey, RAISE IT from its baseline. The cost is steep at character creation, afterwards astronomical, but thoroughly worth it. Unlike the other multiple-actions-in-a-round stats I've seen, it also gives you two separate. . .er. . .call them initiative scores.

Thanks for the tip. Yeah, I'm 99% sure we're using the original rules here. I've got some of the d20 rules I picked up cheap at a con a while back, but the last time I posted anything about them I got a good feel for people's (extremely negative) opinion of them very quickly. I haven't explicitly been told what version this game will be using, but I know the GM's girlfriend doesn't like d20, so I think it's a safe bet we're sticking with the originals this time.

Useful things in 7th Sea:
- Languages! Take the Linguist merit and speak as many as you possibly can.

No "common" then, I take it? That's fine with me, I enjoy being polyglot in my fantasy life since I can't seem to persevere long enough to learn any new languages in the real world.

- Take a swordsman school or sorcery. You can, theoretically, get by with neither but you'll miss out on a lot of cool tricks.

But of course! I think Giacomo Giovanni might be reincarnated for this game, and he will certainly need his cool tricks. Nothing to brag about if you're... mundane.

- Porte is less useful than you'd think.

Ahh yes, I had heard some of the casting was semi-Lovecraftian in this game. When I googled "Porte 7th Sea" this came up pretty quickly: "Porte is even more spectacular: You tear holes in space. These holes bleed. (Some people even think they hear something scream when they do it.) When you reach through 'something' sometimes cuts you. At higher levels you can travel through these holes. But if you open your eyes, you die. No roll. You just die. Period." Fun.

- Not all swordsman schools are equal. Avoid the Eisen-based 'generalship' ones unless you're going to be in several huge battles.

I generally avoid anything in any RPG that seems mass combat related unless I know for a fact we'll be engaging in mass combat. But thanks for the specific tip anyway.

Avoid the bow and crossbow ones.

I'll ignore for a moment the inherent silliness of bow and crossbow swordsmanship schools and focus on the tip itself... should I take this to mean that ranged combat is weaker than melee in 7th Sea? I was planning on building a swashbuckler anyway, but I might as well ask for confirmation here.

- Don't ask to take Zerstören. For crying out loud.

Is there a specific fluff/crunch reason I shouldn't, or is this only because you're tired of people playing Rammstein at the gaming table?

It probably won't be an issue anyway, since that would pretty clearly be something Eisen-related, and given that I want to bring the incredibly-Italian-sounding Giacomo Giovanni back for this game I guess I'll have to be from Vodacce.

Other than that - and that's more advice than 'rules' - pick whatever you think would make your character cool.

Coolness is good. I can handle coolness.

[Lost Demiurge]

I love 7th sea to death, but there's a few things that can trip up the unwary.

Hm, let's see...

Finesse 2 is enough to thin down minion-type enemies. But for most serious villains, you'll want a Finesse of 3. If you're playing a support character you can get by without this.

Be aware of the Skills/Knacks thing. When 7th sea talks about skills, it's actually talking about bundles of related talents. Individual talents are called Knacks.

Thus, the Knife Skill might have the following knacks under it;
-Attack (Knife)
-Parry (Knife)

It's impossible in the base rules to buy individual knacks. You have to buy the entire skill set to get a knack. This is much cheaper to do at creation than it is during play, so buy at least 4-5 skills, if not more. Buy the ones that you plan to build up, that's my advice.

Don't buy advanced knacks during character creation. Maybe 1, if it's a focus of your character, but overall they're much cheaper to buy with experience.

NEVER take a swordsman school AND sorcery. That's just too many points down, you'll gimp yourself.

Only take full-blooded sorcery if you plan to make it a main thing for your character.

Don't hoard drama dice. Don't throw them away like they're nothing, but they are there to be used. If your GM is good he'll give you more as you do cool stuff, so do cool stuff often.

[potatocubed]

Ahh yes, I had heard some of the casting was semi-Lovecraftian in this game. When I googled "Porte 7th Sea" this came up pretty quickly: "Porte is even more spectacular: You tear holes in space. These holes bleed. (Some people even think they hear something scream when they do it.) When you reach through 'something' sometimes cuts you. At higher levels you can travel through these holes. But if you open your eyes, you die. No roll. You just die. Period." Fun.

Yeah, magic users in 7th Sea do all sorts of terrible things to reality. The thing is, Porte - as teleportation magic - seems like a very powerful thing, but isn't until you're a super-archmage-equivalent. Or an NPC.

I'll ignore for a moment the inherent silliness of bow and crossbow swordsmanship schools and focus on the tip itself... should I take this to mean that ranged combat is weaker than melee in 7th Sea? I was planning on building a swashbuckler anyway, but I might as well ask for confirmation here.

The generalship and ranged attacks schools function mechanically like swordsman schools, but aren't.

To answer your question: bows and crossbows aren't up to much in 7th Sea, even with the schools specific to them. Firearms are fantastic, but you can only use them once per fight because even with 5 ranks in the Reload knack it'll still take you about six days. Thrown weapons are surprisingly good, especially if you pick up a suitable school for them. I suspect this arrangement is because guns, thrown knives and hatchets are in-genre and archery isn't, but I could be wrong.

Is there a specific fluff/crunch reason I shouldn't, or is this only because you're tired of people playing Rammstein at the gaming table?

In the 7th Sea backstory there are several schools of sorcery that existed once, but not any more. The bloodlines were wiped out. Two of these are the Castillian fire sorcery (El Fuego Adentro) which has a metaplot reason for survival (although everyone thinks it's extinguished*), and Zerstören, Eisen disintegrate magic, which is definitely completely and totally eradicated, no, you can't be the 'last Zerstören scion', but here's stats for it anyway.

Naturally, when I ran a game of 7th Sea not long ago one of my players gravitated straight to Zerstören. Then to El Fuego Adentro. Then he finally settled on a Vesten whaler character, even though I told him the campaign would be mostly inland swashbuckling rather than pirates. "The campaign's set in Eisen," I said, "so make sure you can speak Low Eisen."

...guess who couldn't speak Low Eisen?

It probably won't be an issue anyway, since that would pretty clearly be something Eisen-related, and given that I want to bring the incredibly-Italian-sounding Giacomo Giovanni back for this game I guess I'll have to be from Vodacce.

Nice. The core Vodacce fencing school (Ambrogia?) is very good.

*Pun intended.

[Ascension]

I love 7th sea to death, but there's a few things that can trip up the unwary.

Hm, let's see...

Finesse 2 is enough to thin down minion-type enemies. But for most serious villains, you'll want a Finesse of 3. If you're playing a support character you can get by without this.

It's impossible in the base rules to buy individual knacks. You have to buy the entire skill set to get a knack. This is much cheaper to do at creation than it is during play, so buy at least 4-5 skills, if not more. Buy the ones that you plan to build up, that's my advice.

Don't buy advanced knacks during character creation. Maybe 1, if it's a focus of your character, but overall they're much cheaper to buy with experience.

Thanks for these tips especially. I'll keep all that in mind.

Yeah, magic users in 7th Sea do all sorts of terrible things to reality. The thing is, Porte - as teleportation magic - seems like a very powerful thing, but isn't until you're a super-archmage-equivalent. Or an NPC.

Ah. Makes sense. No use killing reality if you don't even get good teleportation out of the deal, eh?

The generalship and ranged attacks schools function mechanically like swordsman schools, but aren't.

Ah. Again, makes sense.

To answer your question: bows and crossbows aren't up to much in 7th Sea, even with the schools specific to them. Firearms are fantastic, but you can only use them once per fight because even with 5 ranks in the Reload knack it'll still take you about six days. Thrown weapons are surprisingly good, especially if you pick up a suitable school for them. I suspect this arrangement is because guns, thrown knives and hatchets are in-genre and archery isn't, but I could be wrong.

Right. The lack of good archery skills fits genre conventions and the slowness of reloading firearms fits the reality of the technology. It makes sense, I was just making sure I understood.

In the 7th Sea backstory there are several schools of sorcery that existed once, but not any more. The bloodlines were wiped out. Two of these are the Castillian fire sorcery (El Fuego Adentro) which has a metaplot reason for survival (although everyone thinks it's extinguished*), and Zerstören, Eisen disintegrate magic, which is definitely completely and totally eradicated, no, you can't be the 'last Zerstören scion', but here's stats for it anyway.

*sigh* You've got to love it when games give you something like that. You know everybody's going to want a piece of it just because the plot says they can't have it, yet there are still stats for it.

I guess they just gave it to you for Big Bads to use if you feel like breaking the setting, but still... that sort of thing is aggravating.

Naturally, when I ran a game of 7th Sea not long ago one of my players gravitated straight to Zerstören. Then to El Fuego Adentro. Then he finally settled on a Vesten whaler character, even though I told him the campaign would be mostly inland swashbuckling rather than pirates. "The campaign's set in Eisen," I said, "so make sure you can speak Low Eisen."

...guess who couldn't speak Low Eisen?

I think I've GMed for that guy before. One in every crowd...

Nice. The core Vodacce fencing school (Ambrogia?) is very good.

Ah, good. Giacomo is pretty much my only real recurring character. He started out as a D&D sorcerer and became a horribly complicated gestalt swashbuckler//warblade, but this is sounding like it'll shape up to be his best incarnation yet.

[AmberVael]

Oooo, 7th Sea topic.

I haven't played 7th Sea for very long, but what I DO know (or have noticed in my game, at least) is this:

1) It's a fantastic system as long as you have a good group of players (as I've only played with people who are amazingly good gamers, I wouldn't know about playing it with anyone else, but it's awesome to play with these guys).

2) It seems has a lot of versatility in what it allows you to do in terms of mechanics, but keeps an emphasis on roleplaying.

3) Knacks are overrated. Seems like an odd thing to say, but I've noticed a substantial difference in the character I'm playing in comparison to the ones my friends are playing. They focused on swordsman schools and knacks- I invested heavily in my traits.
Traits, not knacks, are what really drive someone's skill. Having a Knack allows you to add more dice- traits allow you to add more dice AND keep more dice. Also, while one can argue that traits are expensive (because they are!), the fact of the matter is that you're going to be using a lot of skills, and investing enough points to all your relevant skills will be just as expensive as upgrading your traits a bit.

4) You want backgrounds. They REALLY boost your XP gain, and it means you'll be roleplaying more. Without backgrounds? Not as much interest or experience for your character- which isn't a good thing.

[Starbuck_II]

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=49265
This topic has some discussion of 7th sea.

Apparently, for Firearms shoot drop and switch to swordplay.


One con/anaylsis:
Actual swashbuckling stuff is actively punished, since there are separate Knacks for jumping, swimming, and swinging, all of which screw you if you try to perform the activity without them, or just with them too low!

Swinging on a chandelier or vine should give a bonus to whatever it was you were doing, because it's cooler than not swinging on things.