Some folk in Japan have the PHB 2 already...

[Charity]

There is a thread on RPGnet where many beans are being spilt

Half orcs are STR and DEX.

Melee Training: use stat of your choice for basic attacks. Chaladins rejoice!

Thank you WotC my Drow paladin and his mate the rogue are rejoicing.

I could cut n paste lumps over here but you might as well see for yourselves.

[bosssmiley]

Some folk in Japan have the PHB 2 already...

That's because Japan is the future.
(it's true! They have bipedal robots, and they consider the iPhone backwards)

I notice a little griping over the idea of yet another revision to Stealth mechanics. Is Stealth the ever-nagging polymorph subschool problem of 4E, or is this an example of the 'continually-updated beta' philosophy I've seen being talked about?

No prerequisites? Just a +1 feat bonus to all attacks made with that item?

Nope, a straight up plus one! And I should have added that it becomes an amazing +2 and +3 at 15th and 25th level!

Is this snark? I don't speak 4Enese.

[Charity]

No Snark^TM In the land of no attack bonuses the +1 bonus is king...
Bonuses to hit are rare in 4e and a +1 per tier adds enough to warrant excitement it seems.
There is some groovy Deva stuff though, and some new divine classes, my Paladin has been looking for some multiclass options (mc into cleric just seems a little dull)
I tried to link to some pics but the little red cross fairy came avisiting...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2167760...n/photostream/

[Tygell]

I can't access that site at work. Could somebody spell out the new stealth changes for me? Or anything else that might concern an Artful Dodger Drow Rogue.

[Charity]

Don't know what the stealth changes are, just that there are some... There is very little for existing classes, all the feats are either new race/class specific or general for everyone... you might want to mc into Avenger though for their cool mc power to reroll hits on their assigned foe for two rounds/encounter, less chance of wiffing with your dailies.

[RTGoodman]

DAMN do I want to play a Half-Orc and/or a Goliath now. They were my two favorite races in 3.x, and I've been waiting patiently (or not) for them since 4E, but now that I see them I can't wait any longer! Of course, I also ordered my copy via Amazon (albeit the US version, not the Japanese one), so here's to hopin' that maybe I get it early here, too.

[Inyssius Tor]

Is this snark? I don't speak 4Enese.

We recalibrated the scale a while back. Your Natural Spell ("I have special abilities more powerful than your whole class!") is our Combat Expertise ("On average, I hit 5% more often than you do!")

I can't access that site at work. Could somebody spell out the new stealth changes for me? Or anything else that might concern an Artful Dodger Drow Rogue.

We believe it's just the last errata, printed in a book.

[Reinboom]

Weapon Expertise is an interesting feat now, reading in to it further.
Very... interesting.
Choose a weapon group, you get a +1 bonus to all weapons of that group.
This bonus is without a type, and you can take the feat multiple times (each time specifying a new group).
There are many a weapon that has two groups (and possibly more in the future/in the book).

Since there is nothing that specifies the same source does not stack, you can get this feat tapping multiple weapon groups.
Greatspear has become amazing.

[krossbow]

Originally Posted by Jools View Post
Melee Training: use stat of your choice for basic attacks. Chaladins rejoice!

So someone can use charisma to hit now just because they're that awesome?

[hamishspence]

Sounds like Dashing Scoundrel, only, for everyone, as a feat not a (OOTS strip only) prestige class.

[Myatar_Panwar]

So someone can use charisma to hit now just because they're that awesome?

Yes. Imagination!

[Tengu_temp]

Weapon Expertise is an interesting feat now, reading in to it further.
Very... interesting.
Choose a weapon group, you get a +1 bonus to all weapons of that group.
This bonus is without a type, and you can take the feat multiple times (each time specifying a new group).
There are many a weapon that has two groups (and possibly more in the future/in the book).

Since there is nothing that specifies the same source does not stack, you can get this feat tapping multiple weapon groups.
Greatspear has become amazing.

I'm pretty sure this is already sketchy by RAW, clearly not RAI, and no sane DM would ever allow it.

[Reinboom]

I'm pretty sure this is already sketchy by RAW, clearly not RAI, and no sane DM would ever allow it.

Please do show me how this is sketchy by RAW.
You get a +1 untyped bonus to the weapon group you designate (that scales).
You can take this feat multiple types, as said by the feat, though you must designate different weapon groups each time.
Weapon can have multiple weapon groups.
Untyped bonuses stack. It is made clear in the rules of this.

For example, Combat Reflexes gives you a +1 bonus to attack rolls with opportunity attacks. Unlike feat bonuses, however, untyped bonuses stack with themselves.

There is nothing stopping specific sources from stacking with itself.


I see nothing by RAW that makes this sketchy. Nothing.

[Tengu_temp]

The fact that you those untyped bonuses come from taking the same feat several times is what makes it sketchy by RAW. Also, I'd like to take a look at the feat description itself and read it myself instead of relying on third parties that might have accidentally missed something - what if it's mentioned somewhere in the PHB2 that the bonuses from taking a single feat several times do not stack?

Also, even if this trick is actually legal by RAW, good luck finding a DM who will allow it. And it will be errata-ed faster than you can blink.

[MammonAzrael]

And on top of that, if you make a Double Sword a Pact Blade, you could presumably select it for Implement Expertise, granting you a possible +9.

Of course, this all hinges on how the feats are actually worded.

[Asbestos]

Melee Training????

So they took something interesting from one class (Swordmages: Intelligent Whatever it was) and gave it to everyone. Whoopee. Maybe it only works for martial classes perhaps, whatever.



Also, how awesome is the Goliath Great Weapon Prowess feat? Its like Eldarin Soldier or Dwarven Weapon Training... but for two-handed melee weapons.

[Inyssius Tor]

Melee Training????

So they took something interesting from one class (Swordmages: Intelligent Whatever it was) and gave it to everyone. Whoopee.

Yes! Whoopee!

EDIT: *applause*

[Reinboom]

The fact that you those untyped bonuses come from taking the same feat several times is what makes it sketchy by RAW. Also, I'd like to take a look at the feat description itself and read it myself instead of relying on third parties that might have accidentally missed something - what if it's mentioned somewhere in the PHB2 that the bonuses from taking a single feat several times do not stack?

RAW, Rules As Written. There is nothing in 4e that writes from the same source/from the same feat/etc.
Nothing.
Thus it's not a rule as written, since it has never been wrote.

also
Quote from Springs from that thread (the person with the book), who quoted it out of the PHB2:

Weapon Expertise
Benefit: Choose a weapon group. You gain +1 bonus to attack rolls with any weapon power you use with a weapon from that group. The bonus increases to +2 at 15th lvl and to +3 at 25th lvl.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you select this feat, choose another weapon group.

[Asbestos]

Distant Advantage:
Gain combat advantage with ranged and area attacks against flanked enemies.

Now the rogue can just sit at the edge of combat with a crossbow, they don't even need to get messy.

[Inyssius Tor]

Now the rogue can just sit at the edge of combat with a crossbow, they don't even need to get messy.

Yaaay!

...what? The Ranger can do that, right? I don't see why getting another ranged class is such a bad idea.

[Asbestos]

Yes! Whoopee!

EDIT: *applause*

I'm just saying, it makes the Swordmage feat redundant. IMO making a class specific feat open to everyone isn't that great an idea since it steps on the toes of the original class. Everyone gains a feat option, the Swordmage loses one.

[Muyten]

RAW, Rules As Written. There is nothing in 4e that writes from the same source/from the same feat/etc.
Nothing.
Thus it's not a rule as written, since it has never been wrote.

Actually yes there is. Page 275 clearly states that two bonuses from feats do not add to the same roll. Thus you would not get to add both bonuses.

[KillianHawkeye]

Actually yes there is. Page 275 clearly states that two bonuses from feats do not add to the same roll. Thus you would not get to add both bonuses.

Not really. All it says is that two Feat Bonuses (or any of the other typed bonuses) aren't added together. It goes on to say that Untyped Bonuses (which is what we are talking about here) situationally stack even with other Untyped Bonuses.

[Reinboom]

Actually yes there is. Page 275 clearly states that two bonuses from feats do not add to the same roll. Thus you would not get to add both bonuses.

To reiterate Hawkeye with quotes...
The passage I believe you are referring to on page 275:

Bonuses: There’s one important rule for bonuses: Don’t
add together bonuses of the same type to the same roll or
score. If you have two bonuses of the same type that apply
to the same roll or score, use the higher bonus.

Type != Source.
Each type is described in that same entry, even. And in this untyped case...

Some bonuses are untyped (“a +2 bonus”). Most of these
are situational and add together with other bonus you have,
including other untyped bonuses.

Which is exactly the situation at hand.

[Asbestos]

Also, even if this trick is actually legal by RAW, good luck finding a DM who will allow it. And it will be errata-ed faster than you can blink.

I'm in this boat.

[Reinboom]

I'm in this boat.

That doesn't stop it being legal by RAW preerrata.
I'm not arguing whether it is RAI, will-be-errata'd, or DM unacceptable, I'm arguing it is RAW, simply, and that it is not even remotely sketchily RAW either.

I rarely actually apply things like this anyways, unless a GM has absolute blind faith in WotC's design - then I will use things like this to slap them.

Besides, it's fun to theorize and construct musings like this. Whether applied or not, it's like doing a word puzzle, sudoku, or calculus. It can just be fun.

[Inyssius Tor]

I'm just saying, it makes the Swordmage feat redundant. IMO making a class specific feat open to everyone isn't that great an idea since it steps on the toes of the original class. Everyone gains a feat option, the Swordmage loses one.

And that's a gain for seventeen classes. A pretty darn nice one, for twelve of them. Making the swordmage into slightly less of a special little snowflake? In comparison: not terrible.

Besides, it's hardly that tied to the Swordmage. Any other non-Strength defender (such as perhaps a Psionics user? Keep on hoping!) would want it just as much, and I shouldn't think it would be that unjustifiable flavorwise.

Which brings me to this post:

So someone can use charisma to hit now just because they're that awesome?

A swordmage can do this already because... why? Because of magic would be my bet, but the name "Intelligent Blademaster" implies that he can do it because he's just that smart.

In any case... magic is a perfectly good explanation, if "just that smart" won't work for you. A sorcerer is a living conduit of arcane might; he's so charismatic that he can tell the universe to set people on fire and it happens, so it's hardly unreasonable to think that his force of personality would have nothing to do with slashing you with the dagger--which he can use as an implement anyway, so clearly his influence does not stop before reaching the "bladed things" subset of "things in the universe".

A bard? If magic doesn't work for you, think of it as a natural extension of the use of Bluff to feint in combat, amplified by the bard's ridiculous skill at such--I mean, she can insult a man so hard that the man dies, even if the man in fact happens to be an ooze.

The druid uses Wisdom to maul people with his bear claws. Why should he suddenly switch to Strength when it's not his turn?

The avenger and paladin use Wisdom and Charisma for melee attacks. Must Pelor stop guiding their movements when it's not their turn, then?

The artificer can infuse her ammunition and thrown weapons with arcane power. Why does her alchemically-treated dagger use Intelligence when she throws it, but Strength if it stays in her hand?

Why does the rogue use Dexterity to attack on his turn, but Strength when it comes to attacking reflexively when he sees a vulnerable spot in his opponent's defense? Shouldn't an attack based on response time and stabbing at tiny openings be Dexterity?

The wizard, warlock, invoker, and all thirty other classes I'm forgetting? Magic!

[Oracle_Hunter]

Weapon Expertise
Benefit: Choose a weapon group. You gain +1 bonus to attack rolls with any weapon power you use with a weapon from that group. The bonus increases to +2 at 15th lvl and to +3 at 25th lvl.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you select this feat, choose another weapon group.

Wait, what? Is this a Paragon Feat, or did they just nullify Nimble Blade?

Also:

The new multiclass feats are awesome. They're pretty much what you'd expect, use the class features for a limited time. The druid one gives you one beast at will as an encounter and unlimited wild shape! Shaman one gives you unlimited call spirit but as a standard action.

They gave unlimited wild shape as a MC Feat? What ever happened to preserving signature Class Features for the classes?

EDIT: Oh, and I fished this link out of the thread. If you want to stare at the pages of the PHB 2 yourself

[Reinboom]

Wait, what? Is this a Paragon Feat, or did they just nullify Nimble Blade?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20090306

Heroic Tier.

Also, it stacks with Nimble Blade.
Nimble Blade is untyped.

[The Minx]

Also, even if this trick is actually legal by RAW, good luck finding a DM who will allow it. And it will be errata-ed faster than you can blink.

But wasn't the whole design philosophy of 4e that this sort of fix by the DM would no longer be necessary? I hope you're right about the errata fix.

Sadly, I suspect this will happen more and more often as new material by different writers starts hitting the shelves.