Vermin rules abuse. [3.5]

[Froogleyboy]

Is it breaking any rules if I take a Tiny centipede, make it fiendish, and a half dragon, and then give it class levels?

[Flickerdart]

Is it breaking any rules if I take a Tiny centipede, make it fiendish, and a half dragon, and then give it class levels?

I don't see why not. Fiendish can be applied to any Vermin or Animal, and Half-Dragon can be applied to any corporeal, living creature (boy, those dragons sure get around).

[Saintjebus]

You'll need to call Ripley to deal with it, though.

[hamishspence]

Nope- however, vermin don't normally have an ECL, so, whether it could take class levels as a magical beast (thanks to Fiendish template) might depend on the DM.

Also, it doesn't really have grasping appendages, so it might not be able to do what a normal creature could- no hands.

OOTS strip in Dragon Magazine takes this to its logical conclusion:

" I am a vampiric half-dragon half-troll lycanthropic fiendish snail! Tremble at my illogical glory!"

(While there are no rules for snails, there are rules for giant slugs in another Dragon issue, so you could do it with one of these)

[ericgrau]

I'm trying to find the rule, but I don't think creatures without an int can gain class levels. You might even need an int of 3.

EDIT: I found creatures with an int below 3 are not suitable as player characters. That may have been what confused me, but I think I saw another rule somewhere else as well.

EDIT #2: Oh yeah, monstrous centipedes only advance by HD. Tiny monstrous centipedes can't be advanced by all. If a monster can be advanced by character class his description will say so. It's in the "improving monsters" section. I'm pretty sure templates are technically ok. Though I'd still use some common sense on which templates to allow. Fiendish is 100% hunkey-dorey, but half-dragon is a bit of a stretch since half-dragons are descended from dragons. I mean... how??

[AmberVael]

I'm trying to find the rule, but I don't think creatures without an int can gain class levels. You might even need an int of 3.

EDIT: I found creatures with an int below 3 are not suitable as player characters. That may have been what confused me, but I think I saw another rule somewhere else as well.

Fiendish template changes intelligence to a minimum of three, and half-dragon adds to that, so he should be fine.

EDIT #2: Oh yeah, monstrous centipedes only advance by HD. Tiny monstrous centipedes can't be advanced by all. If a monster can be advanced by character class his description will say so. It's in the "improving monsters" section. I'm pretty sure the templates are technically ok. Though I'd still use some common sense on which templates to allow.

While a monstrous centipede is normally not capable of gaining class levels, any creature with substantial intelligence is allowed to gain levels. Thus, by using the fiendish template, it should be able to use level progression.

Granted, there is no set LA/ECL for a monstrous centipede, but a DM could set one for an interested player.

[TheCountAlucard]

Fiendish is 100% hunkey-dorey, but half-dragon is a bit of a stretch since half-dragons are descended from dragons. I mean... how??

Perhaps a dragon with a fetish for bugs was visiting the Lower Planes, and decided to get its shapechange on.

[Lappy9000]

Perhaps a dragon with a fetish for bugs was visiting the Lower Planes, and decided to get its shapechange on. :P

I'm not really sure how to respond. Perhaps it's best I don't.

Back on-topic, though, I doubt some template swapping would be terribly abusive (especially considering how weak monstrous centipedes tend to be; I'm assuming it's a monstrous centipede in question). However, such a build would be terribly illogical and impossible to fluff.
(Just saying that will make someone out there think up a well-thought out and believable backstory, if only to spite me)
Of course, you probably know this already

[Ascension]

Am I the only one seeing a tiny evil draconic centipede wizard BBEG? With a brood of lesser evil centipedes as henchmen? With a lair full of the sort of hiding places and escape routes only a tiny creature could exploit?

Your players will hate you for this.

[Eldariel]

Am I the only one seeing a tiny evil draconic centipede wizard BBEG? With a brood of lesser evil centipedes as henchmen? With a lair full of the sort of hiding places and escape routes only a tiny creature could exploit?

Your players will hate you for this.

That's...that's beautiful! PCs will be just "eww, centipedes" and try blast them without giving them a second thought, not realizing they're just fighting their principal enemy. And when there're few humanoid images nearby with the trivial-looking Centipede really being the one making all 'em and wrecking the party...

[Neithan]

You could make such a creature. But it would gain an Intelligence score and therefore lose the immunity against mind affecting effects, which are explicitly result of a vermins mindlessness.

[hamishspence]

Most templates that can be bestowed on vermin would change the creature type as well. Maybe not all.

[Starbuck_II]

You could make such a creature. But it would gain an Intelligence score and therefore lose the immunity against mind affecting effects, which are explicitly result of a vermins mindlessness.

Actually, having int doesn't remove Mindless trait: so he keeps immunity. Yes, it doesn't make sense, but this is D&D rules weren't made to make sense.

[Froogleyboy]

This is what I'm planing. A half-dragon fiendish centipede sorcerer who leads a swarm of normal monstorous centipedes in a dungeon to attack the party with his breath weapons and spells. Secretly he is an elite member of a cult called "The church of a thousand legs" where a red dragon lets his minions (fiendish half-red dragon centipedes) read from the Tome of clear thought to have 10 int. and the elite read from the Tome of leadership to have 10 Cha. The elite seek out swarms of normal centipedes to lead into battle (part for food, part for enjoyment of the dragon)

[Flickerdart]

Couldn't you just use the Hive Mind rules from Savage Species (I think) to accomplish the same thing?

[Olo Demonsbane]

the Tome of clear thought to have 10 int. and the elite read from the Tome of leadership to have 10 Cha.

If were assuming they get 3 from fiendish and two more from half dragon, the dragon is buying amazingly expensive items to do near absolutely nothing . They are one use. For that amount of money you can buy at least 4 hectochancreies effegies.

OTOH, you could have awakened centipedes.

[ericgrau]

Actually, having int doesn't remove Mindless trait: so he keeps immunity. Yes, it doesn't make sense, but this is D&D rules weren't made to make sense.

Intelligence
Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks.

Mindless creatures do not gain feats or skills, although they may have bonus feats or racial skill bonuses.

You could try to argue that while a creature with no intelligence is mindless, a mindless creature doesn't need to have no intelligence. However, after running a search, I found no definition for "mindless" anywhere else in the rules. It seems it is defined entirely by not having an intelligence score. So a vermin that gains intelligence is no longer mindless.

[Froogleyboy]

What is awakend?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

What is awakend?

There is a spell, "Awaken X" that gives X an Int score, as well as a boost to the other mental stats, at the cost of XP on the part of the caster.

On the "Mindless" trait, the entry reads "Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects)." The parsing is odd, but it seems that while non-intelligence is part of the Mindles trait, it is an effect of it, rather than the cause. So the Vermin gains both 0 Int and immunity to mind-affecting due to the trait, and removal of one of those won't remove the other.