Random Banter #117

[Rawhide]

Judging by your intelligence, it would be a school for the gifted right?

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[Kaelaroth]

@Kaela: You asked for elaboration? Unfortunately, there isn't a heck of a lot of elaborating I can do. I haven't been employed in months, because the job market for any sort of writer or editor is apparently not that wide in Salt Lake City. I've tried applying for online correspondence jobs, but I'm never the best candidate (recent graduates have it rough...), and I've tried swallowing my pride and applying to less intellectual endeavors, but it turns out for those I am over-qualified.

So I've been watching my money slowly dwindle down to nothing. Which, according to my bank statement, just happened today. I've got a couple of days before I need to figure out how the heck I'm going to pay for student loans and rent, but...

*gives you deepest sympathies*

[Felixaar]

Bah! Missed making the new thread by just a few posts... oh well, maybe next time.

[Quincunx]

. . .I'm apparently going to be minority opinion here, but... Catullus? Really? Why are we praising him, when we should be talking about Sappho? Without her, he would be nothing. And that's even discounting the however-many-odd poems he wrote specifically lusting after her. Ugh.

It began from my discussion of a poem written by Fredthefighter and posted in this thread, which had everything to do thematically with the best-known love poem of Catullus and nothing to do with the best-known love poem of Sappho. (Shock at duality is a male theme; we women are born split and born to be split, we can't be surprised by being further divided.) Consider, also, that even in my wealthy and aspirational school district, we had to time-share a Latin teacher with another school as there were not enough Latin students to justify one full-time--now extrapolate how few of those students would have been willing to study Attic Greek, and how likely it was that other, more pinched schools would have sufficient demand to teach Attic Greek. Consider further, that despite its unpolished state, my discussion might have desired to choose both a relevant comparison and one that the readers were more likely to be familiar with. Perhaps, if you have poetry to give, we may see if it has the air of Sappho about it.

[Thufir]

@Thufir: yup. It's the lesser known sequel. It's only four books long and yeah, it's about Satan failing to tempt Christ while he's out in the desert.
I have a link to an online text of the Comedy if you want?

Hm. Will have to look into that at some point.

Nah, my parents have a copy at home. Possibly two copies, even. They have all 3 in one book, and then they have seperate copies of the Inferno and Purgatorio, but I haven't seen Paradiso anywhere.

[PhoeKun]

It began from my discussion of a poem written by Fredthefighter and posted in this thread, which had everything to do thematically with the best-known love poem of Catullus and nothing to do with the best-known love poem of Sappho. (Shock at duality is a male theme; we women are born split and born to be split, we can't be surprised by being further divided.) Consider, also, that even in my wealthy and aspirational school district, we had to time-share a Latin teacher with another school as there were not enough Latin students to justify one full-time--now extrapolate how few of those students would have been willing to study Attic Greek, and how likely it was that other, more pinched schools would have sufficient demand to teach Attic Greek. Consider further, that despite its unpolished state, my discussion might have desired to choose both a relevant comparison and one that the readers were more likely to be familiar with. Perhaps, if you have poetry to give, we may see if it has the air of Sappho about it.

I apologize. In my attempts to contain a rant, I pulled too tightly, and chose the rest of my words poorly as well. Catullus may come up in any context he chooses to. But if he does rear his head, someone needs to be there to call him a useless prat. As the conversation had shifted away from comparing poster submissions to his work, and towards a discussion towards how gosh darn wonderful he was, the task fell to me. And I, in my eagerness, tripped on my shoelaces. Which is weird, because I wear boots. But as long as I'm here in the dirt, I'll say it more clearly: Catullus was a twit.

My poems are the product of a meager talent and the modern age. I have nothing to give that would taste of Sappho.

Also, I'm speaking oddly. Look at what reading your posts does to me!

[Quincunx]

Well, bother. Where are we going to get a toehold on her, then? This is a wonderful page for the plethora of translations*, but I haven't got a clue on which ones are accurate. Some are spare and I can guess literal (Peter Whigham), some in a poetic form I remember from, yes, that 'twit' Catullus (William Carlos Williams is, I think, best of these), some twist the verse into English rhyme (Tennyson, at least, acknowledged that blocky verse would not do), but I cannot recommend even one as better than the rest! It would be much easier to start discussing from some Playgrounder's attempt at the emotion. I've riffled through what poems I have, and I'd only dropped the theme into a haiku--something even more fragmentary than the original. Not particularly helpful.

*Nice thing about studying Classics--if you can tolerate primitive webpages, there's much material to mine. Those academics were enthusiasts about swapping their copyright-free material.

[PhoeKun]

Well then...

http://phoekun.googlepages.com/poems

Peruse, and decide for yourself. Perhaps it won't lead to Sappho, but it might be good for me to think about poetry in terms of me writing it. Or it could be pointless ego stroking. Or crushing. I expect the latter - I am raw and still developing.

I hate linking to that site. So self conscious...

[Quincunx]

Please don't be alarmed by my silence. I have to stop reading and start cooking now, no time for commentary, time for reflection.

[Neko Toast]

Feh...

Is it Spring break yet?

...

How about now?

[Haruki-kun]

Feh...

Is it Spring break yet?

...

How about now?

*sigh*

Almost..... almost.....<.<

[SMEE]

*sigh* Spring break... *sob, sob*

[Fredthefighter]

Spring Break? Is that like Easter Holidays? Two weeks off?
I've heard of it, but am unfamiliar with it.
Also, Fred is happy. Mainly because on Friday, I am going to see Brainiac: Science Abuse live at the Symphony Hall in Birmingham.
Friday 13th+Explosions+Crowded Area= Uh oh with hilarity.
It's going to be lots of fun.
Anyways, how is everyone?
Also, Quincunx, I don't think I'll ever submit poetry to books or magazines or whatever, it's just something I wrote and decided to share. I don't even know whether I'll write anything else, it was a spur of the moment thing.

[Dr. Bath]

Spring Break? Is that like Easter Holidays? Two weeks off?

Four weeks off more like!

Zing!


Not that I'm looking forward to the end of term. It's the coursework deadline. eep.

[Phase]

Feh, I don't have Spring Break for another month.

[banjo1985]

Easter? A mighty two days off for me...I bloody well miss the holidays you get while you're still in the education system.

I'm currently well into hour eleven of a thirteen hour work day...I'm so tired my head might just hit the computer and fhoweifgweifgwfsd

[The Rose Dragon]

Feh, I don't have Spring Break for another month.

No Spring Break at all.

Those who complain about how far away Spring Break is, eat your hearts out.

[Fredthefighter]

Four weeks off more like!

Zing!


Not that I'm looking forward to the end of term. It's the coursework deadline. eep.

Well, just before Easter holiday, I have French Orals, then afterwards I have my Drama Final Exam. Then when Late May/Early June hits, I have the main exam period. Additonal Science exam, Maths Terminal exam, English Literature exam, Maths Module 10 exam paper, History exam, Graphic Products exam.
Not worried about Graphic Products or Drama. Maths is the after school classes I'm attending History we're almost finished with Germany and we'll be moving back to America. Science has quite a bit to be done, but it's all in-lesson stuff we've got to do. English Literature, we've got a tiny bit of work left on "Of Mice and Men" and then poetry to learn.
I.T has projects left to finish.
I need to make an original soundtrack for an interactive storybook, I need to design a screensaver, add that, a wallpaper design and a cushion design to an elevated wall design (Which I need to finish), but other than that I'm almost done. (I'm the furthest ahead in the class).
P.E just has one semi-exam (for everyone, I didn't take it as a GSCE lesson), which I don't much care about really. Although I was on fire on the basketball court today, unusual for me considering I am not good at sports.
Coursework was all done in Yr 10 pretty much. I have a few things to do for science, but I'm arranging the time to do those after school. I'm finishing the Data Task this Friday afternoon.

[Coplantor]

I'm waiting for fall here. Though we do have a week of easter vacations.

[Fredthefighter]

I'm waiting for fall here. Though we do have a week of easter vacations.

Autumn/Fall is a long way off isn't it? I thought it didn't start until September-ish.

[Dragonrider]

Unless he lives in the southern hemisphere, in which case it's in a couple weeks.

[Fredthefighter]

Unless he lives in the southern hemisphere, in which case it's in a couple weeks.

Geography may have been interesting, but it was never my best subject. I chose History instead, now that is one of my best subjects.
My mood is being skyrocketed by the Foo Fighters.
Lately, I've been, living in my head,
The rest of me is dead,
I'm dieing for truth!
Make me, believe,
No more left and right,
Come on take my side, I'm fighting for you!
I'm fighting for you!
Please to meet you take my hand.
There is no way back from hell.
Please to meet you say your prayers,
There is no way back from hell,
But I don't care,
No way back from hell!

[CurlyKitGirl]

>.>
<.<
Seeing as I'd only heard of Sappho today I can't comment on anything yet; but backtracking from the link you gave Quincunx, I can say that she is a very intense and (how I hate being unable to find an appropriate word) worthwhile poet.
Even if Kenneth Rexroth (site author?) uses a quotation from a metaphysical poem in te third to last paragraph.
His review/hitory of Sappho and her poetry in translation is a bit too pastorally inclined in description. Honestly, "flirtations of his deodorized shepherds and shepherdesses we always hear time’s winged chariot hurrying near, loaded with marriage contracts". It just seems so jarring somehow. Especially the italicised quotation from To His Coy Mistress.
Huh. Went from poet to scholar review. Strange.
RIght!
Sappho hunting. Primarily referring to Poem of Jealousy. I'll be using dispersonal stuff as well so even though I'm talking mainly to Phoe it'll be as if an actual essay essay.

Phoe poem - What Is It? (A scholar's approach to analysis)
Analysing specifically for links to Sappho and her themes; but with other stuff chucked in, perhaps also some recurring themes in the work of Phoekun.


Like Sappho Phoe's main theme (from what I've read) is love - specifically (in her earlier submmited ones) of broken or lost love. This is similar to Sappho's Poem of Jealousy where she covets what she once had, but now doesn't.
HOWEVER, whereas Sappho is rather acidic (Literal translation by Gregory Nagy (date unknown)) Phoe sounds more melancholy. If you take the 2005 translation "so stops my heart and binds /my tongue that I can’t think what I might say" (Sappho) is directly reminiscent (to me) of "Because when we talk,/I’m still the awkward, stumbling one." (Moving Forward; Phoekun) which shows the same trend towards hesitancy indicating shyness.
Moving Forward is more evocative of this theme though as the use of commas creates a stuttering pace when read aloud, mimicing a physical "stumble".
The narrative voice of both poets is feminine, taking a direct first person experience making the topics discussed very personal and quite confidential. Both Sappho and the speaker write about homosexual love between two females; the formers' seems to be unrequited, perhaps unacknowledged even though Greek love (male/male) was the norm - this almost certainly didn't extend to females, but I studied Attic Greece, so there is a sense of danger and even taboo in the silence and the metaphor of the "fire" being sparked alight where her "[bound] tongue" could be seen as being restrained by Ancient Greek propriety and culture, as well as simple shyness or jealousy.
The speaker of What Is It? (and possibly Moving Forward) has the love recognised and either toyed with as just "playfullness" (What) or failing due to the "stumbling" (Moving). This reflects societal norms where homosexuality is welcomed in part. This makes Phoe's writing more personal is it clearly emphasises the personal silence, however unwanted it may be as compared to the possibly cultural silence of Sappho.
Both poets are stylistically concise with Sappho's translators tending more towards enjambement and caesura in the middle of lines, but here they seem wistful, perhaps because of the placement (2005 translation). But since there was no punctuation when Sappho wrote this may merely be a reflection of how the translator interpreted it and thus, it affects the tone substantially. (See earlier mention comparing literal (date unknown) and 2005 and the tone of the two)
In comparison, the two poems by Phoe are fairly reliant on caesura and the use of syndetic listing (What) to create either a sense of inevitability, foreshadowing the eventual end of that speakers' relationship, but also hinting that she has tried to form one before showing that she has many failed relationships. This creates a feeling of pity for the unidentified speaker. The caesura caused by the full stops of Moving Foward show her inability to express her emotions. But as the majority of full stops are at the end of the lines it could also be interpreted as a relutance to move on as a full stop expressed finality.
Generally, Sappho tends towards more elaborate mythology based imagery with the man feeling as a "god" showing that her unnamed love has the ability to inspire and raise up a mortal to Olympos; it also could imply that love is more powerful than the gods in this way. But this is quite tenuous, it is more that Sappho believes romantic love between anyone is very powerful (cf. Rexroths' introduction). The other major simile is of fire which, in Greek mmythology could be seen as referring to Prometheus the first man.
Fire, which here represents love or passion is therefore rightly possession of the gods implying that both Sappho and her love are gods or more than mortal while the man is a thief. In which case, Sappho jealously believes that her once - love should be hers and hers alone.
In contrast, Phoe's poems use simplistic language gaining immediacy and poignancy in the absence of complex structure or literary technique. This simplicity makes the emotions felt far more effective as their imact is very powerful.

[/analysis]

That may or may not have been helpful. But they're all really good poems and have a lot in common with Sappho if you look hard enough.
This mini - essay was done while eating my dinner and doing homework. Apologies if it's shoddy.
Caveat: I know nothing about the personal lives of either poet and have placed some of my interpretations on either related culture in the case of Sappho or solely from modern times, the poems themselves and my perspective as an A Level essayist.

[Kaelaroth]

You seriously only heard of Sappho today?

[CurlyKitGirl]

One: I go to a state funded college and am teaching myself Ancient Greek/Latin sporadically.
Two: Cornwall = yokel land. Far less likely to learn about the classical civilisations in any detail outside of private schools or college.
Three: I may have heard the name, but nothing else. So yeah, this is my first time hearing anything about Sappho aside from her name. Why?

[PhoeKun]

It is not a crime to not know an author or a poet. Merely a shame that some have difficulty getting exposure...

[Jibar]

There is Lego all over my desk.
I cannot do anything here because there's Lego in the way.
And this isn't all of it. This is some of the smaller sets that have just accumulated.
Arrrgh. >,<

[CurlyKitGirl]

It is not a crime to not know an author or a poet. Merely a shame that some have difficulty getting exposure...

Tell me about it. I couldn't even get access to most of the books I wanted to read when I was in secondary until Y10 or later. Thank Io for befriending and practically working as a school Librarian. And I wrote all their quizzes!
But I has access to know.

Did you like the other review too?

[Kaelaroth]

Why?

I just found it a little odd, is all. You're so very knowledgeable about, well, everything else.

It is not a crime to not know an author or a poet.

Never said it was.

[Edge]

Well, writing that post in the "Who are you?" thread has left me somewhat melancholy and introspective. As such, I shall soon head for bed. G'night all.