[3.5]Maybe it's just me...

[TaintedLight]

I was reading through Heroes of Horror and Player's Handbook II the other day, and I was astounded when I read the rules info for beguilers and dread necromancers. I couldn't for the life of me justify how powerful those two classes are when compared with one of the core classes: the sorcerer. It seems to me that the sorcerer is just weak sauce comparatively since it learns fewer spells slower than the specialist magic-users and gains no class abilities whatsoever other than a familiar (or Metamagic Specialist if you prefer). I recognize that the sorcerer has the potential to create more variety, but my experience with spontaneous casters (having played three sorcerers and two favored souls) is that diversifying is suicide. You simply don't have the capacity to be able to afford to spread your talents that thin. I've found that an effective sorcerer is one who picks two (maximum three) areas of focus (like buffs, evocations, summoning, etc.) and suffers the downside of being screwed without support. However, I cannot fathom how a class with a d6 HD, casting in light armor, steadily improving damage reduction, inflict light wounds as a touch attack at will, light fortification, negative energy burst, and a few more choice goodies is equivalent to a class with the limitations that the sorcerer has. Even the favored soul has it better.

The question is really as such: is the sorcerer underpowered or are the beguiler, dread necromancer, or favored soul (or some combination thereof) just too powerful comparatively?

[tyckspoon]

The sorcerer is underpowered (for a full caster, at least.) Basically, the original developers massively overestimated the value of spontaneous casting, which is why the Sorcerer is stuck with slower spell progression and absolutely no class features compared to the Wizard (there are blogs and other developer commentary to this effect around, if you care to look for them.) They also overestimated the value of a slightly larger HD and armored casting (d4-d6 averages just one more hp/level, and light armor has about the same value as just casting Mage Armor instead.) The specialist spontaneous casters are limited primarily by being specialists; they have pre-set spell lists with very little opportunity to build beyond those, where the Sorcerer can pick his own specialty or even do pretty well at several with careful spell choice. The Dread Necro's class features are mostly nifty but not particularly powerful; the bonuses to animated undead and the ability to Rebuke are the best of them. The Beguiler's cloaked casting features are pretty nifty, tho.

[TaintedLight]

Now that you point it out, it does make sense that the difference between a d4/d6 HD is negligible, but armor has the potential to be very powerful (at higher levels especially). The thing about dread necro specifically is that, even though they are stuck with a certain spell list, they do have advanced learning. Granted, they have to pick up necromancy spells but frankly there are some very nice necromancy spells (vampiric touch, waves of fatigue/exhaustion which I think they get anyways). There's nothing underpowered about their spell list, and there's no competition from a sorcerer who chooses similar spells.

[Draz74]

Your experience that spontaneous casters need to avoid diversity is very strange. My experience is precisely the reverse (with Sorcerers).

The successful Sorcerer is the one who has one or two good blasting spells, a few good buffs, a few mobility/emergency spells, a couple good battlefield controls, a good save-or-suck for each save, a couple good defenses like Mirror Image, and (if he can squeeze in anything else) a couple summons or utilities. With a good spell in each role, he can be very flexible at adapting to whatever situation comes his way.

Dread Necros can't compete with a Sorcerer who works this way. Beguilers maybe can (it depends largely on how cheesy the Sorcerer was when he picked his spells -- Celerity, Polymorph, and Shivering Touch, anyone?), because they have such a huge array of skills and because Illusions are so adaptable, but it's not a sure deal.

[RTGoodman]

The question is really as such: is the sorcerer underpowered or are the beguiler, dread necromancer, or favored soul (or some combination thereof) just too powerful comparatively?

Basically, it's a little of both, but still not really either.

Wizards has admitted, IIRC, on at least one occasion that they felt early in 3.x that spontaneous casting would be very powerful compared to started prepared casting, and they made the Sorcerer weaker because of that. They learn few spells, learn spells LATER, and in general they don't get much else.

Now, Beguilers and their ilk (Dread Necromancers and War Mages) aren't necessarily OVERPOWERED, but they are an example of a little bit of power creep in later supplements. They might BE, in fact, stronger than some of the other Core classes or at least seem like it, but it's only because those classes weren't super-awesome to begin with. The Beguiler, for instance, takes the good-but-not-Wizard-good Sorcerer and combines it with Rogue, often cited as the solid middle ground in terms of power. Beguiler is probably a bit better than them, but it's certainly not game-breaking. Same thing for Dread Necros - they're pretty good at what they do, but they're not overpowered as-is.

Now, the Favored Soul, though, is the odd man out since it's not even as GOOD as most of the other classes. I mean, it's a full caster, so it's not BAD, but it has two casting stats PLUS combat stats that might be necessary considering its weapon-related abilities, its signature abilities (flight and resistances) come too late to matter, and in general it's just not that inspiring.

[Optimator]

Now that you point it out, it does make sense that the difference between a d4/d6 HD is negligible, but armor has the potential to be very powerful (at higher levels especially).

Not particularly. Mithral Twilight chain shirts, A&EG's rules for adding effects to bracers of armor, standard buff spells... all of these make armor less-than-exciting for a class feature. As already said, lots of this stuff was perceived to be totally awesome in the early days (same with a full BAB, heavy armor proficiency, etc).

[Oslecamo]

Beguiler is probably a bit better than them, but it's certainly not game-breaking. Same thing for Dread Necros - they're pretty good at what they do, but they're not overpowered as-is.

It depends on the optimization. Beguiller and Dread necros are forced to specialize, while the sorceror can pick anything he wishes.

An optimized sorceror with a well chosen spell list can easily curb stomp the best dread necro and beguillers out there by combining the strongest magics of each school. Aka teleporting in shapechanged into something nifty, time stoping and unleashing the best save or dies out there.

But, if you want your sorceror to specialize in a little area like illusions or necromancy, then you're probably better with the beguiller or dread necro.