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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default What Batman villain would this be?

    So I've been working on an anti-Batman build. I'm a fan of the Joker Bard, but I feel it's not quite as useful in an actual fight, so I've been working on something that will be resistant to most of the tricks Batman wizards try to pull in battle.

    So far, the build goes like this:

    Shadow Human Hexblade 4/Paladin of Slaughter 3/Blackguard 3

    I might add Necropolitan (at least, I think that's the name) from Libris Mortis, but I'm not sure if the immunities are worth losing the Con score. Anyway, this guy gets three times his Cha as a bonus on saving throws against any spells or SLAs, mettle, evasion, total concealment when in conditions other than full daylight, -2 to saving throws on people within 10 feet, -1 on AC on people within 10 feet, and some more goodies that I don't feel like listing. Throw in a ring of freedom of movement, and Batman's tricks aren't quite as useful.

    So, I have a few questions with this build:

    1) If I wanted to use it at higher levels, what feats and class levels should I fill it out with?

    2) Obviously, this guy wouldn't fight on his own against a party, but what should I team him up with?

    3) And, what is clearly the most important question, what Batman villain does he match up with best (I'm leaning towards Scarecrow because of the debuffs)?

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    Team him up with a wizard because the best way to fight batman is to have one of your own. I actually just played that character except i wasn't quite far enough into yet to pick up bg3. Your saves will be nice and juicy though which is always a bonus. I gave him PA, Cleave, Improved Sunder, and Tomb-tainted soul since we had a dread necro that loved to drop negative energy. Now that I think about it do that. Have him team up with a dread necro with lots of undead goodies and have his minions and the hexblade wade into combat. Give him the feat that when a mook blows up it explodes with negative enery healing the hexblade and the rest of the undead baddies. Throw lots of lower summon monsters at them and just rinse and repeat. As a ninth level feat think about mother cyst.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    The fact is, saves and immunities aren't enough to protect you from a high-level batman. Really, nothing is, once you consider the vast array of monsters that batman can gate in or shapeshift into to kill you. Can you take on a Balor? How about a Solar? A celestial Great Wyrm Gold Dragon?

    Plus, there's always forcecage.

    Really, the only build-type I can think of that batman doesn't have an easy counter for is an uberstealther with the darkstalker feat, since the only way he can actually pin him down is by making the spot/listen checks.

    Scratch that. Arcane sight lets the wizard see exactly where they are, unless they've somehow managed a successful stealth build with no magic items whatsoever.

    If you want to make an actual counter to a batman wizard, the only thing that will really cut it is another batman wizard (or sufficiently high level cleric, druid or archivist).
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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    I'll leave the mechanical aspects alone and just talk a bit about Batman. Your character is a slimy one, with a high degree of attractive traits (good Charisma), who is extremely hard to hit, uses distracting tactics (I assume) to lower the defences of opponents and is close to impossible to trap (with the ring).

    Yeah, this is a Catwoman build. Can take anything Batman throws against her, but don't necessarily have the fighting skillz to defeat him in open combat. She is hard to pin down and catch, and plays tricks on Batman if he lets her get to close, and she always gets away in the end.

    EDIT: Yes, Catwoman isn't technically a villain any more, but she still counts as one of the classics.
    Last edited by charl; 2009-03-12 at 08:21 AM.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    Quote Originally Posted by CthulhuM View Post
    The fact is, saves and immunities aren't enough to protect you from a high-level batman. Really, nothing is, once you consider the vast array of monsters that batman can gate in or shapeshift into to kill you. Can you take on a Balor? How about a Solar? A celestial Great Wyrm Gold Dragon?

    Plus, there's always forcecage.
    Notice that the build is ECL 12. Not gates or forcecage at that level. Part of why I'm asking about higher levels is to see if it's at all possible. And the point of this build isn't to beat Batman, merely provide him with an encounter where his normal "Win" buttons won't be as effective. After all, no one can beat Batman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charl
    Yeah, this is a Catwoman build.
    That's actually a really good assessment.

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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    Quote Originally Posted by XenoGeno View Post
    That's actually a really good assessment.
    Thank you! I take pride in my comic nerdery.
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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    Useful tactics include saves, SR, grappling (even if he makes the concentration check and escapes, just rinse and repeat until you land a pin and end it), readied actions to disrupt spells with ranged attacks (best done by a group), dimension door to defeat barriers, high mobility and/or flight to reach him, stealth to catch him off guard regardless of initiative, dispel magic and anti-magic fields. If he blows some contingent/celerity/mindsight/etc. cheese you may still have some trouble, but while a caster might be ready for anything he usually isn't ready for everything.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-03-12 at 02:32 PM.

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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    Sorry, double post.
    Last edited by CthulhuM; 2009-03-12 at 06:17 PM.
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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    Hmmm, well, if you're trying to challenge a mid-level batman (is this purely theoretical, or are you actually DMing for a party with a batman?) then a heavily stealth-based build actually might be a good plan. I kept my party confounded for a good long while using a kobold swordsage with the dark template - his hide and move silently were high enough that they couldn't reliably pinpoint him even when he was taking the -20 to hide and move silently while fighting.

    Another option might be to use ghouls or incorporeal undead with rogue levels - maximize their hide check and the DC on their paralysis/energy drain/whatever, and have them spring attack the party.

    A theoretical batman would, of course, have arcane sight permanancied and be able to locate most of these foes, but a party wizard most likely does not, and thus would be as vulnerable to them as anyone. Particularly if you go with incorporeal undead, since then he can't use flight to escape.

    If you wanted to use your hexblade build too, he could actually make a decent "tank" for the encounter. Pump his AC and make him seem as threatening as possible, so the party remains distracted by him while the real threat (the stealthers) chips away at them.
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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    The Batman cannot be beaten if you play by his rules. Which is why you Don't play by his rules. The concept is based on using the right tool for the right job, so all you have to do is surprise them. Oh sure, any smart Batman has a couple general-purpose spells ready for unexpected situations, but those will be limited in scope and much less useful than the instant beatdown that will occur if you let them prepare ahead of time. The best way to kill a Batman wizard is to wait until they just finished killing somthing else, then jump them.
    Last edited by BRC; 2009-03-12 at 06:37 PM.
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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    Kite-Man. Because he's going down fast. Or Calendar Man, because his days are numbered.

    Not being mean (Had to use those puns, when I thought of them), I'm just pretty sure that you're not Batman-proof yet. (Or ever will be, but that's a thread I dont want to start, let me tell you.)

    As far as I can tell, you still need a counter for Fly, Invisibility Spells, and no-save spells (All Batman favorites!), for starters. A way to prevent teleportation would be killer (or else Batman just goes away and comes back later armed for bear.)

    Do the Necropolitan/Dread Necro teamup (maybe a high-level warlock too. They have negative energy blasts, and great unlimited dispelling). And yeah, a Batman of your own would greatly help matters.
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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    come on, a slimy kinda character who would possibly take something to have minions just screams penguin, and it wits with the high charisma, too!

    If not, I'd like to see a nice penguin build :D

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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    Quote Originally Posted by CthulhuM View Post
    Really, the only build-type I can think of that batman doesn't have an easy counter for is an uberstealther with the darkstalker feat, since the only way he can actually pin him down is by making the spot/listen checks.

    Scratch that. Arcane sight lets the wizard see exactly where they are, unless they've somehow managed a successful stealth build with no magic items whatsoever.
    Yeah, question about that. Other than general "magic trumps mundane" principles, is there anything in the rules that actually says a stealthy character isn't hiding his magic auras, just like he's hiding everything else, when he uses stealth skills vs. an Arcane Sight user?

    That's been bugging me for a long time. If seeing his magic items *is* enough to foil all sorts of stealth, wow, that's much worse than Knock and Detect Traps spells for "magic beats mundane" stupidity.

    Hmmm. Time to figure out a good Stealth build with Vow of Poverty, eh?
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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    Or just have one of your magic items be permanent non-detection.

    Or mind blank.

    Either one will defeat arcane sight, but mind blank doesnt have an opposed caster level roll, and wtfpwns all the batman's other divinations too.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    You are correct, Joker Bard cannot stand toe-to-toe with Batman Wizard, that's why he makes damn sure he never has to.

    Joker Bard fights Batman by making Batman blow all his spells per day on his Funhouse of Horror followed by wave after wave of mooks.

    All to let the Batman Wizard know that the Evil Dude you are looking for is in another castle....

    Your character needs immunity to mind-affecting and scrying. Mind Blank works best, although there are other ways to achieve this. If you don't, you will simply end up being Batman's... er... Robin

    You also don't have a way to keep the Disintegrate from turning you into a small pile of ash. Armor is irrelevant, you need Touch AC like mad. Like at least 50+, to even beat the Quicken True Strike combo. I suggest you combo Swordsage with something that has Uncanny Dodge.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2009-03-12 at 08:47 PM.
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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Yeah, question about that. Other than general "magic trumps mundane" principles, is there anything in the rules that actually says a stealthy character isn't hiding his magic auras, just like he's hiding everything else, when he uses stealth skills vs. an Arcane Sight user?

    That's been bugging me for a long time. If seeing his magic items *is* enough to foil all sorts of stealth, wow, that's much worse than Knock and Detect Traps spells for "magic beats mundane" stupidity.

    Hmmm. Time to figure out a good Stealth build with Vow of Poverty, eh?
    That's precisely why none of my Rogues like to wear magic items :( That said, just having Permanencied Nystul's Magic Aura on all your items to mask their auras should do it. As your opponents aren't exactly casting Identifys on you during combat, they won't be getting Will-saves; the auras simply won't be registering.
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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    You also don't have a way to keep the Disintegrate from turning you into a small pile of ash. Armor is irrelevant, you need Touch AC like mad. Like at least 50+, to even beat the Quicken True Strike combo. I suggest you combo Swordsage with something that has Uncanny Dodge.

    That's what the Shadow template does. No line of sight means no ranged-touch attacks. As long as he stays outside of bright daylight, he'll be fine (and besides, 5d6 on a made save is an average of 15.5 damage, right? Not too bad), and if he has Necropolitan, he'll be immune to mind-affecting. And, again, his saves could be high enough to make his save against scrying every time. But most importantly, this guy isn't meant to be the BBEG, but a minion; I currently have a plan to use him in a campaign teamed up with an uberstealther and an illusionist as the final fight, but with a lower-level fight with some more normal allies much sooner. It should be quite interesting.

    Also, what are some no-save spells that don't rely on ranged-touch or impeding movemnet?

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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    That's precisely why none of my Rogues like to wear magic items :( That said, just having Permanencied Nystul's Magic Aura on all your items to mask their auras should do it. As your opponents aren't exactly casting Identifys on you during combat, they won't be getting Will-saves; the auras simply won't be registering.
    Permanencied Nystul's are expensive. Pretty manageable if you only have 4 items, but when you are a Christmas Tree Effect high-level hero ... not acceptable.

    At very high levels, Mind Blank should indeed be something every Stealth character wants anyway. But until then ... argh!

    But hey Eldariel, I'm still not seeing any rules justification in your answer. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but ... when you Hide, you don't have to be naked so that your equipment won't be visible to normal sight and give away your position. If an invisible creature Hides, I shouldn't think See Invisibility would reveal him just because it foils the invisibility; the mundane stealth should override that. So why -- and derived from what passage of the rules -- does Detect Magic (or Arcane Sight) get past mundane stealth?
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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Permanencied Nystul's are expensive. Pretty manageable if you only have 4 items, but when you are a Christmas Tree Effect high-level hero ... not acceptable.

    At very high levels, Mind Blank should indeed be something every Stealth character wants anyway. But until then ... argh!

    But hey Eldariel, I'm still not seeing any rules justification in your answer. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but ... when you Hide, you don't have to be naked so that your equipment won't be visible to normal sight and give away your position. If an invisible creature Hides, I shouldn't think See Invisibility would reveal him just because it foils the invisibility; the mundane stealth should override that. So why -- and derived from what passage of the rules -- does Detect Magic (or Arcane Sight) get past mundane stealth?
    See invisibility will reveal an invisible creature if invisibility is the only thing granting it concealment, and it doesn't have the right kind of hide in plain sight.

    And detect magic and such are not affected by invisibility/hiding because they don't specifically allow you to see the items - they simply inform the caster of "the strength and location of each aura" (which is a downside for him too - it means his detect spell doesn't allow him to cast a targeted spell on you, even if he knows where you are"). Hiding won't protect you if someone casts commune and asks "is there a guy hiding behind that chair?" - it not protecting you from detect spells is the same idea.

    Also, even if you could hide from divinations, detect spells penetrate barriers, so that fog cloud you're hiding in, or corner you're hiding behind, is insufficient to provide you the cover/concealment you need to actually make the hide checks.

    EDIT: The Nystul's are a good idea, though. The only downside would be if you ever got caught in an aoe dispel - goodbye auras in that case. It's questionable whether or not mind blank works, though - it protects you from divinations, but says nothing about anything you are touching or wearing.
    Last edited by CthulhuM; 2009-03-12 at 11:51 PM.
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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    Quote Originally Posted by XenoGeno View Post
    Also, what are some no-save spells that don't rely on ranged-touch or impeding movemnet?
    Daylight. (Now the shadow's gone!)
    Reverse Gravity.
    Maze.
    The Power Word Line.
    Spread of Contentment.
    Unearthly Beauty.
    Grave Mist.
    Force Cage.
    Scintillating Pattern.

    Just a few off the top of my head (Not all off wizard list - I think). I wouldn't worry so much about guarding against these, though, as any wizard worth the name can turn a few spells and some creativity into a threat. Fly high and drop shrunken avalanches, and so on.

    Really, though, if you're just going for "anti-caster minion" you've got a good start. Grab a fly speed and give him a nice magebane supression greater dispelling ghost touch weapon, some way of getting past invis, and he should be a nice challenge for the average caster.
    Last edited by streakster; 2009-03-12 at 11:54 PM.
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    Default Re: What Batman villain would this be?

    Started a new thread to avoid derailing this one further.
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