Why must the vamps be evil?

[Arachu]

In the vampire's very description, it says they have to be evil. Why is that? I mean, they're unholy semblances of life, animated by dark magics, that feed on blood, but they keep their mind.

I mean, they really keep their mind. As do lycanthropes, who are also rank-and-filed.

I'm pretty sure it's more relaxed for lycans, but regardless of a being's origin, if it has a mind, it should have a choice.

And the worst part is, they can't become non-evil!

So, some paladin gets mauled by a vampire, wakes up as a vampire, and regardless of his mental state, or moral standing, or general dang-giving, he has to be evil.

It just doesn't make sense to me, is all... Probably because it doesn't.

P.S. Oh, and before anyone comes in saying "Vampires drink the blood of the innocent. That is evil", Blood Drain's description says that they have to drain a living target, not a human target.

Anyone who's obsessed with Supernatural should know where I'm going with this.

A vampire could drain anything. Humans, cows, goats, even fish. Eating steak isn't evil, nor is eating a (albeit cooked) chicken's body. I mean, attacking a cow and sucking the blood from its neck is pretty dang evil, but they couldn't bleed it first?

P.S.S I wasn't trying to be very serious here, but I'm pretty sure I was. No one jump on me, here (smiley face I can't decide on right now)

[Flickerdart]

A human being can survive by eating lard. But you don't want to, because that's nasty, and something like steak is a lot better. A human being could also blend that steak before eating it, but that's also nasty. So yes, vampires could drain cows and drink the blood through a straw, but why would they do that when they don't have to? 8 LA worth of instincts can't be that easy to fight.
Their priorities could also change. Take, for example, Dr. Manhattan, but replace his powers with a vampire's. Why should he care who he eats? His food doesn't care about him.

[Collin152]

They have a mind, which might be similar to their own, but it's evil. Don't forget, they died; their body is now a Vampire, even if they themselves are departed.
Chew on that one.

[Graymayre]

In the end it's up to the DM, or the writer, or whatever else is controlling the situation.

If they literally have to be evil and there should be an explanation? Perhaps they retain their intelligence, but not their minds.

Maybe negative energy is some sentient being, controlling anything it pervades.

[Kyouhen]

Technically they COULD be good, but they'll still register as evil to any alignment detection. That's what happens when you have your blood replaced with raw energy that makes anything that lives wither and die.

[Assassin89]

I think you just answered your question with your introduction. Sentience does not automatically mean being given a choice. As for alignments, always does not mean that every single vampire is evil, as there may be a very rare exception.

[Jack_Simth]

Maybe negative energy is some sentient being, controlling anything it pervades.

Catch: There's a Core undead with no alignment restrictions at all: The Ghost. It's also the only Core undead without an alignment restriction...

Additionally, when you consider that (Core), someone who's corpse is shambling around as an undead can't be brought back without either destroying the undead or applying the spell directly to the shambling corpse (well, except by Clone... but that requires some work prior to the death of the test subject), that suggests the soul is trapped in the corpse, and not necessarily in control of it. It's not all that far-fetched to say that most undead are actually some form of demon/devil/whatever that's been put in control of the corpse, and is torturing the soul of the original owner for power; some get an amount of access to the victim's memories.

Alternately, there are methods by which to change the alignment of a critter - Cursed items, mostly, but there's a handful of other ways.

[Fishy]

Eating steak isn't evil, nor is eating a (albeit cooked) chicken's body.

In mythology, vampires are a metaphor for idea that, in order to live, human being have to kill things. Constantly. Unpleasant fact.

In D&D mythology, vampires and all undead are powered by Negative Energy- which, according to one interpretation of the standard cosmology, is essentially evil radioactivity. A vampire's physical body is a point of contact between the material world and the Negative Energy Plane: the source of all darkness and unpleasantness in the universe. The idea is that even if the vampire manages to resist his tendencies and opens a nunnery for orphaned kittens, the Material Plane is still somehow metaphysically but quantifiably worse because he's in it.

In terms of game mechanics, it's because the 3.5 alignment system is dumb.

[Innis Cabal]

In the vampire's very description, it says they have to be evil. Why is that? I mean, they're unholy semblances of life, animated by dark magics, that feed on blood, but they keep their mind.

There we are. Somethings are just evil. Its D&D...not RL, moral ambiguity dosn't exist in print

[horngeek]

In terms of game mechanics, it's because the 3.5 alignment system is dumb.

Actually, it's not a bad system.


As for vamps, there are some universes where they aren't always evil. Discworld in particular, but you would have to have some way of them not killing constantly to survive.

Or, the Warhammer approach. No matter the previous character of a vampire, they are evil. In this case, a PC who became one would require the player to make a new character.

[Arachu]

Flickerdart: I'm assuming that they have to feed on blood. You know, like everyone else does

Collin 152: True, assuming that that's the case. I assert that it's the same mind that was there before they died. It's at least somewhat more complex than a sentient zombie...

Graymayre: Good point.

Kyouhen: Extremely good point.


... And for that matter, I wonder if they could live off of red meat? That would totally count as neutral.

[Zaq]

I guess it's pretty much the same as any other default undead alignment in D&D. We all know the tired old confusion of why zombies, (mindless, non-living beings who serve their creator unthinkingly) are Always Evil but golems (mindless, non-living beings who serve their creator unthinkingly) are Always Neutral, even though creating a golem involves forcibly enslaving an unwilling earth elemental and binding it to your will. Or why Animate Dead has the [Evil] descriptor but, say, Dominate doesn't. (And Deathwatch is Evil? Hengh?)

D&D, particularly in the core books (though certainly not only there) is really weird about alignment in particular and negative energy specifically. It's evil! Except it's actually just a force of nature and Inflict Wounds isn't evil and stuff. But it's evil! And undead are always evil! Even the mindless ones who have no free will and no concept of right and wrong! Except that animals have no concept of right and wrong and thus are always neutral. But they're evil! Except there's no goddamn reason for it.

If you insist on sticking to the text in the book, just say they're evil because the process of becoming a vampire forcibly and irrevocably twists their essence into something actively Evil, actually changing their outlook, personality, and goals. Or you can look at the mismatched pile of crap that is the rest of the core rules on alignment and/or negative energy, conclude that the whole thing was written by a group of people who didn't actually talk to each other on the matter, and go with whatever makes sense to you.

[Arachu]

Yeah, I've always wondered what the f*** was with Deathwatch being evil

[Alleine]

Vampire's aren't devoid of their souls, right? One of the few undead that aren't, I believe. If so, you could cast Sanctify the Wicked on them. That would certainly be a most interesting vampire.

[Graymayre]

So what happens when a vampire is given an item that curses him to be good? Would there be any changes? Or would he simply "be-a-good-vampire-end-of-discussion-and-post"

[Dacia Brabant]

Why do they have to be evil? Because this isn't d20 Twilight.

But seriously though I actually agree, I don't think vampires should be required to be evil since they should be able to sustain themselves without actually killing intelligent beings, it's just that murder's an easier path for them to take to get the blood they need.

I'm reminded of my old V:tM character, a Assamite sorcerer on the Path of Humanity who actually found a way to keep Kosher as a vampire (blood is unclean after all--he basically had to have a full chemistry lab to be able to drink). I was aiming at acquiring True Faith for him before the game died. Too bad too, it was a fun and challenging character to play.

[Flickerdart]

So what happens when a vampire is given an item that curses him to be good? Would there be any changes? Or would he simply "be-a-good-vampire-end-of-discussion-and-post"

He'd be a good Vampire. That's about it.

A demon with that helm would be a Lawful Good creature with Chaotic and Evil subtypes though. Which is funny.

[Kris Strife]

Scyfling, you think trying to keep Kosher as a vampire is hard? Try being a Jehovah's Witness vampire.

[Dacia Brabant]

Scyfling, you think trying to keep Kosher as a vampire is hard? Try being a Jehovah's Witness vampire.

That's, wow, I have no idea how I'd even begin to play that--well I could see being a bad one rather easily, using the door-to-door routine as a means to feed (though that'd be especially difficult if you can't enter homes uninvited.) But an actual practicing JW vampire? That's pretty wild.

[Kris Strife]

That's, wow, I have no idea how I'd even begin to play that--well I could see being a bad one rather easily, using the door-to-door routine as a means to feed (though that'd be especially difficult if you can't enter homes uninvited.) But an actual practicing JW vampire? That's pretty wild.

Especially since blood transfusions arent allowed. :p

Ooh... What about a warforged Morman?

[Dervag]

I think the answer is that while we can imagine a vampire with morals (and many fiction writers have), a vampire who behaves normally really is being pretty darn evil, since they're eating people on the installment plan when they don't have to.

[Oslecamo]

I think the answer is that while we can imagine a vampire with morals (and many fiction writers have), a vampire who behaves normally really is being pretty darn evil, since they're eating people on the installment plan when they don't have to.

People's definition of "evil" and "good" has become quite twisted nowadays. I had a friend who played Fallout and got suprised when he got negative karma after stealing stuff from good people's houses when he had already plenty of equipment and then kill said good people when they tried to get back their stuff.

Similarly, in Exalted the "good" guys are the nº1 responsible for the sad state of stuff. If they weren't so busy backstabbing their creatores and each other for pure greed, perhaps the world wouldn't be falling apart. But off course, they're good, because they're shiny and they can beat the crap out of anyone who says otherwise.

In WH40k, I've seen many people consider the Space Marines who crippled the Emperor for fun, slaughter inocents left and right just to get some evil doers(where evil doer is normally someone who doesn't think as twisted as them), attack each other for any and every pretext and then turn to chaos in a 50% basis, to be true and pious defenders of justice and good.

[Narmoth]

Personally, I always homebrew that the vampire needs freshly poured human blood to survive.
Now, if he wants to be good, he'd better find a way to get it without hurting people.
Buying blood could be an option here.
Most vampires in my setting don't bother to do it, but simply kill innocents to sate their hunger and are thus evil

[Stephen_E]

Actually, it's not a bad system.


As for vamps, there are some universes where they aren't always evil. Discworld in particular, but you would have to have some way of them not killing constantly to survive.

Or, the Warhammer approach. No matter the previous character of a vampire, they are evil. In this case, a PC who became one would require the player to make a new character.

Warhammer Vamps aren't always evil. There a Vamp actress in the book series who's a good guy.

As for how a vampire can feed reguly by killing constantly without been evil. That's simple, become an adventurer. Plenty of food.
Of course if you look at the vampire entry there isn't any requirement to feed. Given that the MM also makes clear that even "always" only menas "Almost all" there is actually nothing stopping a vampire PC been a good alignment character that travels with the group and never feeds on blood. If they do feed some you can just fix it with some Restoration spells.
You'll probably want to setup the coffin with a permanent Tensors Floating Disc or two and some Darkness spells ready to activate for popping out during the day.

It's simply a question of how far you want to think outside the box.

Stephen E

[Ernir]

In the games I DM, I think of vampires as "Usually neutral evil". Vampires do have a pretty strong natural desire to do ebil stuff, but a determined individual turned vampire (like most Paladins) might still be able to keep his alignment.

I guess I would represent this with some series of will saves if it ever happened to a PC...

[Sendal]

Perhaps a Paladin who wakes up to find himself a Vampire must choose to either smite himself or alow a vampire (always evil) to live and thus fall.

[Khatoblepas]

Because their primal urges are Evil. They feel the urge to feed and make more vampires. It's not just drinking blood, it's reproduction (their reproduction is linked to their feeding). They're like viruses - they exist only to make more.

But since the targets are sentient, reasoning beings, vampire instincts appeal to their darkest, deepest most vile thoughts. I'd rule that a Vampire Paladin doesn't immediately turn to evil... but their MO would have to change ever so slightly over time.

- After all, you're only taking the blood of the most vile criminals.
- You're only taking blood of those who would die anyway.
- You're only taking blood to fuel yourself for the greater good.
- You're only giving your compatriots untold power to fight the evil.
- To fight evil, you must survive. To survive, you must drink blood.
- Why must others live such ineffectual lives that don't contribute to fighting evil? They deserve to die, I'm giving them power anyway!
- Evil must be destroyed! I'll make an example of anyone who doesn't follow me in my crusade against it! I will give my followers ultimate power, we will swoop down and destroy. Anyone who objects will die!

And more and more, you come to rely on your new powers to function. A Vampire Paladin would be the scariest thing of all, too, as they'd still think they're good. Vampires are more insideous than just "Will save or try to drink that man's blood". It requires a lot of roleplaying on the player's part, and this is why the LA is +8, I think. DMs who trust the players will drop the LA to something reasonable, and then a tragedy would play out.

Note also that a vampire's soul is corrupted and is only tenuously linked to the body, hence why running water will destroy them - it washes the soul away.

[Evil the Cat]

In my setting I generally don't have a vampire instantly be evil, but they all wind up there eventually.

Once created, they see everyone as flowing with such... wonderful life energy... that they just want soooooo bad..... Its more addictive than heroin, the cravings only get stronger with time, never weaker. the habit is impossible to kick, and they're born fully addicted, in a state of withdrawal and have no experience at all in fighting it. animals are the crap stuff that takes the edge off, but it isn't anywhere near enough...

The only time they're not going crazy with blood withdrawal is when they've recently fed.

To me this is very thematically appropriate, and every vampire winds up full on evil eventually.

[ericgrau]

Because it is their nature to be evil. You're all thinking that it's something they do that makes them evil, when really they're born evil and that makes them act the way they do.

It's similar to a demon. You might have a good demon, but it's extremely rare. They're not too likely to change. That's why demons and aberrations tend to be killed on sight, whereas other races are supposed to get a trial regardless of alignment. Though most campaigns don't do that.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Because their primal urges are Evil. They feel the urge to feed and make more vampires. It's not just drinking blood, it's reproduction (their reproduction is linked to their feeding). They're like viruses - they exist only to make more.

So do Humans. And Celestials. The ultimate purpose of anything's existance is to breed.