[3.5e] Build Help: Alchemist Savant

[Fax Celestis]

So I just got my hands on Magic of Eberron recently (yeah, yeah, I'm behind the times) and was looking through it when I came across the Alchemist Savant. It seems like a neat class--not overpowered, but with an interesting shtick. I've always wanted to play a grenadier sort of character anyway.

So, then, the question becomes: if I enter the class through Artificer 5 (which isn't going to change: I like infusions as much as anyone, and I really want that Retain Essence ability to keep my XP up), what's the best thing to do after Alchemist Savant, and what're some good feats to get in there?

Right now, I'm looking at Quick Draw, Point Blank Shot, and Precise Shot. Also considering the Grenadier feat from PHB-II, but I'm not sure if a thrown spellvial counts as a "splash weapon". Probably not, considering the last line of the Brew Spellvial ability: "Spellvials have no splash effect."

The other question is, what're good options for spellvials? I mean, there's the obvious ones: hold person, cure/inflict X wounds, poison (+/- mixed with regular poison with the Create Alchemical Mixture ability), hideous laughter, etc. There's some gems from SC too, I'm sure. Off the top of my head I'm envisioning alchemically mixed acidic fire spellvials of combust and spellvials of bands of steel. I do know, however, I'm missing what're probably some pretty killer spells--there may even be a couple that aren't on core caster's lists (like, say, shugenja, hexblade, or wu jen) that're worth their weight in gold.

Anyway. Anyone have thoughts? As of right now, this is theoretical, but if Shackled City keeps beating up my poor druid the way it is, I may need a replacement.

[Fax Celestis]

What, nobody? o_O I can't possibly be the first person to have thought of a character like this.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Don't have the book, but if you post the Spellvial rules, I can give you spell suggestions.

[Random NPC]

Turn Ninja!

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You create the spellvial just as you would any other potion; the spell stored within must be of 3rd level or lower and capable of targeting a creature other than the caster. [...] Even spells that include nontargeted effects (such as dispel magic) can be incorporated, as long as they include a targeted effect as well (only the targeted effect functions).

[Fax Celestis]

The long and short of it is that they can brew a spellvial in the same fashion of brewing a potion, except the spell takes effect when the vial is thrown at a target--in short, it's like alchemist's fire, but with spells. It caps at third level spells and requires the spell in use t be able to target a creature other than the caster. It gives examples of hold person, slow, and invisibility, but then says false life, fireball, and magic weapon are invalid spells. Spells that have multiple forms of targeting (like dispel magic) can be used, but they require the use of the target version.

Spellvials are thrown weapons, touch attacks, with a range increment of 10'.

[Flickerdart]

Can you Metamagic these in any way and/or increase the cap?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Your best bet then is probably Touch Attack spells that don't need a save, and things with stacking effects. IIRC, you can use iterative attacks with thrown items(you should be able to, anyways), so Ray of Exhaustion 2x is a perfect debuff in order to make everything else easier for your party. Toss in Ray of Enfeeblement(Rapid Shot, or just high BAB), and you have completed a 3-Spell no-save-just-suck routine in one round. Save spells just won't be worth it due to the low DC, in most cases.

[Fax Celestis]

Can you Metamagic these in any way and/or increase the cap?

You can't increase the cap, but you can metamagic them like a potion.

[jcsw]

See Calculus, Gnome in Arms and Equipment Guide. It's a flask launcher.

All spells turned into spellvials don't keep their casting time... Although I can't think of a spell which could abuse that.

[Zephyros]

On a less serious note: After Alchemist Savant go Master Thrower and riddle them with spherical glassy death xD

[Sstoopidtallkid]

See Calculus, Gnome in Arms and Equipment Guide. It's a flask launcher.

All spells turned into spellvials don't keep their casting time... Although I can't think of a spell which could abuse that.

Well, does Control Weather appear on anyone's list as 3rd or lower? Other than that, I have to agree. There are very few spells in the game that are both below 4th level and have a casting time of longer than one round.

[Flickerdart]

See Calculus, Gnome in Arms and Equipment Guide. It's a flask launcher.

All spells turned into spellvials don't keep their casting time... Although I can't think of a spell which could abuse that.

Damn, I thought that could abuse Lesser Geas, since Geas has a casting time of 10 minutes, but the Lesser version is just a round. Foiled again.

[Zaq]

You need to make at least a couple beneficial spellvials, especially Cure X Wounds. Yes, in-combat healing is suboptimal. Yes, there are better things you can be doing. Yes, if you just want to restore HP there are better ways to do it. Yada yada yada. Not the point. The point is that healing someone by hurling glass vials at them is awesome.

(There's even precedent for it in at least two video games that I can think of: the Chemist from the original Final Fantasy Tactics, and the Alchemist from Ragnarok Online!)

I think you need to be looking into maximizing your throws-per-round, really. It seems to me that one of the primary benefits of these vials is that you can throw as many as you could any other thrown weapon, so if you can throw more than one per round, that's multiple spells cast per round, which I hardly need to tell you is a good thing. I don't know off the top of my head if there are any good ways to augment chuckin' ability and maintain caster levels, but that's an aspect I'd explore.

[avr]

If you're throwing spellvials you need either the Quick Draw feat or the homonculus in Magic of Eberron which is a direct ripoff of Twoflower's Luggage from Terry Pratchett's books. I think the latter is cooler, especially if you get the Improved Homonculus feat later to give it more weird abilities.

PS: Vampiric Touch

[Olo Demonsbane]

Ghoul Glyph, though you target it on your opponent's square

Mindless Rage, in the right circumstances.

Winter's Embrace against a target w/ a low fort save during a long battle.

Entice Gift is always one of my favorites.

Ray of Dizzyness is like targeted slow.

Hope some of these were helpfull

[Darrin]

So, then, the question becomes: if I enter the class through Artificer 5 (which isn't going to change: I like infusions as much as anyone, and I really want that Retain Essence ability to keep my XP up), what's the best thing to do after Alchemist Savant, and what're some good feats to get in there?

Hmm... could you combine the Master Alchemist's (MoF) ability to brew more powerful potions with spellvials? Energy Drain or Meteor Swarm spellvial, anyone?

The other question is, what're good options for spellvials?

How about:

Arcane Turmoil (CMage, Sor/Wiz 2): Targeted dispel magic + lose highest level spell.
Blinding Spittle (SC, Dru 2): Blindness, no save
Belker Claws (SC, Sor/Wiz 2): 2d12 untyped damage, lasts 2 rounds
Creeping Cold (SC, Dru 2): 1d6/2d6/3d6 cold damage, extend for more.
Kelpstrand (SC, Dru 2): Grapple check to entangle.
Shivering Touch (Frostburn, Sor/Wiz 3): Buh-Row-Ken.

[Dyllan]

Hmm... could you combine the Master Alchemist's (MoF) ability to brew more powerful potions with spellvials? Energy Drain or Meteor Swarm spellvial, anyone?

Well, considering that it reads in part:

You create the spellvial just as you would any other potion;

I'd have to say yes, you can.

[Darrin]

Well, considering that it reads in part:

I'd have to say yes, you can.

You didn't finish the quote. The complete sentence:

You create the spellvial just as you would any other potion; the spell stored within must be of 3rd level or lower and capable of targeting a creature other than the caster.

It's not clear if this is a requirement for creating a spellvial, or the text is just reiterating the typical requirements for brewing potions, although a reasonable DM might be able to handwave this when combined with Master Alchemist.

[Fax Celestis]

...could I possibly brew potions of hunter's eye (or whatever that ranger spell is that gives sneak attack based on CL) and then throw spellvials of wracking touch?

Also, I was hammering out some ideas: the main problem with a spell like lightning bolt is that it doesn't require a single target. However, Spellwarp Sniper solves that.

So, I was thinking: Artificer 5/Alchemist Savant 2/Spellthief 1/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Alchemist Savant +3/X 4.

[Nate the Snake]

Does Spellwarp even work with spellvials? You don't actually cast the spell into the vial, so you can't warp it.

Still, putting a bolt of lightning into a jar deserves style points.

[Fax Celestis]

Does Spellwarp even work with spellvials? You don't actually cast the spell into the vial, so you can't warp it.

Still, putting a bolt of lightning into a jar deserves style points.

An excellent point. I'll have to talk to my DM about that.

EDIT: under consideration, you cast the spell as part of crafting the item, so it's kinda an up-in-the-air thing.

[Zaq]

I think we're forgetting one of the fundamental benefits of potions... any old schlub can use them. You don't need UMD or anything. You can give your partymates a handful of spellvials and have them chuck along with you in the first couple rounds of combat, for even more widespread debuffing or whatever.

Also, Haste = extra attack = extra thrown item = extra spellvial = extra spell per round. Fairly obvious, but worth mentioning.

[Fax Celestis]

Final Fantasy Tactics

That was the first thing that came to my mind.

I think we're forgetting one of the fundamental benefits of potions... any old schlub can use them. You don't need UMD or anything. You can give your partymates a handful of spellvials and have them chuck along with you in the first couple rounds of combat, for even more widespread debuffing or whatever.

An excellent point.

[arguskos]

I actually would seriously recommend asking your DM about Master Alchemist. The way the spellvials are worded, it feels like a reiteration of the potion rules. This means you MIGHT just be able to use Master Alchemist to do horrible things to people...

Maybe change your build to this: Artificer 5/Alchemist Savant 2/Spellthief 1/Alchemist Savant +3/Master Alchemist 9?

It doesn't get you 9th level potions/spellvials (so no time stop spellvials), but it's pretty powerful regardless. Of course, you need to talk to your DM about it, but I think you can make a strong case for it working. Besides, as someone who exists to make potions/spellvials, you will eventually need higher-level stuff.

[Fax Celestis]

That's a decent build. You could actually take the Spellthief Dip™ out, since the only reason I was using it was to qualify for Spellwarp Sniper. Artificer 5/Alchemist Savant 2/Alchemist Savant +3/Master Alchemist 10 could be good. I'll need to look at Master Alchemist, though.

[arguskos]

Ah. Wasn't sure (knowing your love of Spellthief and all that).

Master Alchemist is pretty fun. Gives more brews per day (stacks with Alchemical Savant too) and lets you brew higher level potions (and that's quite literally it). The only issue I see is in how to qualify (it needs 4th level arcane or divine spells). Perhaps 4th level infusions would qualify? It's a DM call sorta thing.

[Fax Celestis]

Well, the artificer qualifies for PrCs the way a shadowcaster does: if the type of casting isn't specified, it works. I'm of the mind that "arcane or divine spellcasting" translates to "spellcasting" because the original designer was too short-sighted to consider the possibility of a form of spellcasting that was neither. My DM will probably let it slide anyway.

[MammonAzrael]

It looks like you've got most things pounded out. The only thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is finding a way to increase the range of your thrown weapons. Be certain to pick up Far Shot.

[Zaq]

I found some very fun things to add to spellvials... first, the "Fell X" metamagics from Libris Mortis. Fell Weaken isn't exceptionally useful in this case because it doesn't stack with itself, but Fell Frighten and Fell Drain synergize beautifully with the whole many-spell(vial)s-per-round concept.

Fell Frighten is a +2 metamagic that basically renders an enemy who takes damage from your spell shaken for 1 minute, no save. If you can chuck three vials per turn (via Rapid Shot, Haste, simple BAB, or whatever), Fell Frighten lets you basically reduce an enemy from zero to panicked in one turn, no save (assuming you can hit with them all, but they're just touch attacks, right?). Use the little damaging cantrips (Acid Splash, Ray of Frost, Electric Jolt, or my personal favorite, Sonic Snap) to minimize the cost, or just use Magic Missile if you don't mind making the more expensive 3rd-level ones. Fell Frighten Sonic Snap is a fun trick to begin with, but when you can layer it two or three deep in a single turn, well, it's downright nasty. Some picky GMs might rule that two of the same spell (say, two Fell Frighten Acid Splashes) wouldn't stack, but I see no reason why, say, a FF Acid Splash and a FF Ray of Frost wouldn't stack.

Fell Drain is less of a win button on its face, but more insidious overall. It's another +2 metamagic that bestows a negative level on any target damaged by the spell in question... it's nasty enough when a 2nd level spell (I do love metamagicking up the damaging cantrips) causes a negative level with no save, but the ability to spam them, as spellvials let you do, is delightful. Of course, since negative levels reduce saves, this becomes particularly nasty when you use the option to mix contact poisons with the spellvials. Remember too that your partymates can use spellvials just as well as you can... give everyone a handful of negative-levels-in-a-bottle and you can reduce enemies to as low as you want pretty quickly over the course of a round or two.

Other metamagics that say "when target is damaged, X happens" are also helpful, though less so than the two Fell options simply because the Fell options stack so beautifully, and the joy of spellvials is the whole many-spells-per-round thing. Still, attaching a rider like Deafening Spell or Coercive Spell (both from DotU) is handy. Attaching Born of the Three Thunders to spellvials would be... interesting. The saves would be pitifully low (since it's based off of the spell's normal save, and that's none too high with a potion), but it doesn't change the level of the spell, and the daze caused by BotTT would apply when you brew the potion, not when you throw it (since it's tied to casting the spell, which happens on creation, not on use), so there's no real downside other than the cost of the feat itself. Spam enough vials and they'll roll a 1 eventually, and at basically no cost to you. Black Lore of Moil similarly does not add to the level of the spell, simply giving an exchange of gp for d6s. Not exactly superpowered, especially compared to, say, negative-levels-in-a-can, but it can be nice to add to, say, Wracking Touch. (Speaking of which, your party sneak attacker will love you if you give her a handful of spellvials of wracking touch. The ability to make multiple touch attacks, from range, with a guaranteed sneak attack? Sold!)

Hmm, spellvials don't expire, and you'd have to brew them during your downtime anyway, right? Two levels of Chameleon for the infamous wildcard feat would be just dandy here, if you're willing to lose the caster levels. When you're actually making your potions, use the feat to get whatever weird and quirky metamagic you want to apply to the spellvials (BotTT leaps to mind, since if you get it with the floating feat, it costs you nothing at all to add it). Then, when you actually go adventuring, change it to Rapid Shot or whatever is actually appropriate. It's the old "using the Chameleon feat on whatever item crafting feat interests you" trick, but modified and focused a little bit.

Oh, and you can add just about any alchemical substance to the spellvials, right? If so... well, most GMs that know about it outright ban atramen oil (Planar Handbook) except in the highest-powered of games, but if you can convince your GM to allow it, it's downright disgusting when mixed with spellvials. If you're unfamiliar with it, it's a thrown alchemical weapon that bestows -4 on Fort saves for one minute, no save. It only costs a measly 50 gp a flask, and you can make it yourself with a DC 20 Craft (Alchemy) check, which should be disgustingly easy for such a character. Kind of disgustingly overpowered, and not recommended for most games in the same way that Polymorph (well, okay, maybe it's not on the level of Polymorph, but at least Alter Self) and Celerity aren't recommended for most games, but if you're in a high-powered campaign, it's a doozy. Atramen oil is overpowered on its own, but combined with spellvials it's just evil. Hell, let's just consider an example: Coercive Spell is +1, Fell Drain is +2. You could brew a Coercive Fell Drain Sonic Snap spellvial, then mix it with a flask of atramen oil. The resulting little bomb will bestow upon anyone unfortunate to be hit with its touch attack a -2 on Will saves, a -4 on Fort saves, and a negative level. Oh, and 1 sonic damage. No save for any of it. (Well, and a save to avoid being deafened, but it's DC 10. Of course, with these other penalties, they just might fail it!) Eeeeeeeew.

Finally, I would call cheese shenanigans on any player who tried this, but technically you could (ab)use Sanctum Spell to brew a nominally 4th level spell into a potion, and by extent a spellvial. It's horrible abuse of RAI, but you can make some interesting things with a 4th level spellvial if you have an extraordinarily lenient GM.

...Man, I really want to play this class now. I've always loved alchemists thematically, and now there's something to put actual power behind 'em!

[Zaq]

...No comments on my ideas? Man, I put a lot of thought into those.