Pimp my Psion (3.5)

[Graymayre]

I'm making my first psionic character for a 5th level campaign. I'm sorry, but this isn't my normal group, so I don't know any relevant houserules or the make up of the party.

I plan on using the Elan race, because of all the hilarious immediate actions it can do with power points.

I'll be playing the psion class, and am split between choosing the seer or shaper discipline.

What does /b/ the playground think of these disciplines? If I go into shaper; would it be a good move to get the overchannel, talented, and body fuel feats so I can make some uber slightly better than normal astral constructs?

[Flickerdart]

Overchannel is always an excellent feat to take, but mostly for Kineticists that want to blow stuff up. Boost Construct is a pretty good feat. You'll definitely want CompPsi, since it has some interesting support for Shapers. But being a Shaper isn't just about Astral Constructs (and if you just want it for that, go Seer and use Expanded Knowledge to pick up Astral Construct).

[Douglas]

If all you want Shaper for is Astral Construct (which is usually the case), spend a feat on Expanded Knowledge for it and take a different discipline.

Seer has some potentially interesting stuff, but it's near the bottom of the list power-wise in my opinion. I'd usually recommend either Telepath (assuming you won't be facing tons of mind-affecting-immune stuff) or Nomad.

[The Glyphstone]

If you like Astral Constructs, do everything you can to make sure your DM doesn't get their hands on Complete Psionic - among its many flaws, it gutted ACs as a viable power by A) altering it so that you can only have 1 Construct active at a time, B) "fixing' this with a gimped AC-centered PrC, and C) further confusing the issue with some extremely weak AC 'theme' feats that require all your constructs to follow a specific pattern of menu choices in exchange for a minor non-menu bonus.

Instead, check out the Constructor PrC on the Wizards website, it's awesomesauce.

[Eldariel]

The basics:
-Get a Psicrystal; those things are worth it, especially for the second Psionic Focus.
-Psionic Meditation is a must. You'll be using Psionic Focus a lot in metapsionics and some powers and feats and so on.
-Psicrystal Containment so that your Psicrystal can actually hold that Psionic Focus.
-Overchannel is a great feat; do get the first chance you get. Due to augmenting, almost all psionic powers get some mileage out of the option. Consider Talented if you find yourself interested in overchanneling lowlevel powers (mostly for blasters).
-Likely use for many of your feats is Expanded Knowledge. There simply are too many good cross-discipline powers to make do without at least some of them. For example, Schism just kicks ass so you'll eventually want to pick it up.
-Metapsionics: Extend Power, Chain Power, Delay Power, Maximize Power, Quicken Power, Linked Power, etc. all have their uses.

Oh yeah, and if you want to play around with the Astral Constructs, Boost Construct is a great feat. Just make sure your playgroup ignores the idiotic related "rules" offered by Complete Psionics and you should be fine. CPsi is a fine book for material, but the rules changes are from Hades.

[Graymayre]

Using expanded knowledge for astral construct looks like a pretty good idea. I'm thinking of using the nomad discipline like douglas suggested instead of seer because I rarely hear anything about it, and I've never had a character that could teleport.

If you like Astral Constructs, do everything you can to make sure your DM doesn't get their hands on Complete Psionic - among its many flaws, it gutted ACs as a viable power by A) altering it so that you can only have 1 Construct active at a time, B) "fixing' this with a gimped AC-centered PrC, and C) further confusing the issue with some extremely weak AC 'theme' feats that require all your constructs to follow a specific pattern of menu choices in exchange for a minor non-menu bonus.

too late.
Is it even worth it to get astral construct now that he has it?

EDIT: The DM is sensible, so he'll likely rule in my favor against the complete psionics

[Eldariel]

Nomads are a blast, but their powers best avail a Psi Gish; all that mobility makes for an excellent ability to be there to hit someone and then being away. Of course, you can do similar teleport-by attacks with powers, but that's much, much more expensive PP-wise.

EDIT: That said, they also possess the ability to place people anywhere on the battlefield, and so on, so they'll make fine primary casters too.

[Samb]

Go and google psion handbook for an excellant build guild. This thing has it all and you will be very happy.

Seer is useful but it appears to be the weaker of all the disiplines. I'd personally would go with egoist, shaper or telepath. If you are running a short campign I'd say egoist since you will get to do crazy stuff with metamorphosis and metamorphic transfer feat, combined with overchannel will give you a better selection of what you metamorph into. Metamorphosis is considered a must have for all psionic PCs.
If you are planning on a longer game I think shaper or telepathy are excellent choices. Shaper gets you astral construct and the creation powers, while telepaths give you some of the best save or die/sucks. In a longer game you can also research for metamorphosis as well while a short game were every xp counts you cannot sac a level that you might not get back.

Feats you must have:
Metamorphic transfer: use the Su abilities of the shape you turned into. Essential for making near broken. Get this at lvl 6 and once you hit 7 you can role play any monster in the monster manuals
Overchannel: better constructs, better morphs, better everything

Linked power: long manifesting times are now cut to nothing when linked

Illithid feats: for 4 feats you get 4 of the best telepathic powers in the book, +2 on will throws (more or less) and all you mind controls are more potent.

Boost construct: taking another feat for you pet at such an early level is almost cheating

Psicrystal affinity: 3 feats rolled in one, and yes if you metamorph so does your crystal. And it gets feats itself!

Item creation: get the djores and any you can spare. Djores powers that you use often so you always have it on the fly.

[Zaq]

It fits a Wilder more than it fits a Psion, but I personally like having Expanded Knowledge (Claws of the Beast), assuming you have passable defenses (Vigor, Inertial Armor, and so on). Why? Because no matter how careful you are, there will be a time when you find you simply don't have any power points left. Once you get your manifester level up reasonably high, though, CotB will last all day, and will give you SOMETHING to fall back on if you're simply out of PP. It gives you a little bit of security, so you feel safer going nova if you really have to. (Of course, you should still make sure you DO really have to, but the point is, at least you won't be COMPLETELY useless for the rest of the day.)

Perhaps Claws of the Beast isn't for you; it's really only worthwhile if you can ensure that you stay alive when you're charging in with claws bared. However, just having SOMETHING to rely on when you're running low or running out of PP is really useful, and gives you some peace of mind, knowing that you at least have a plan B if you've miscalculated how far your daily power points will take you. So, even if you decide against Claws, I highly recommend making sure you do have a passable plan B. Doesn't have to be earth-shattering, doesn't have to be awesome, it just has to be SOMETHING so you can do more than a 1st level Wizard on his 5th daily encounter.

[Random NPC]

I'm making my first psionic character for a 5th level campaign. I'm sorry, but this isn't my normal group, so I don't know any relevant houserules or the make up of the party.

I plan on using the Elan race, because of all the hilarious immediate actions it can do with power points.

I'll be playing the psion class, and am split between choosing the seer or shaper discipline.

What does /b/ the playground think of these disciplines? If I go into shaper; would it be a good move to get the overchannel, talented, and body fuel feats so I can make some uber slightly better than normal astral constructs?

Other than that I would consider going Warforged (with the Psyforged Body feat in Magic of Eberron) if possible. Not those nifty abilities the Elan has and one less power point, but as a Shaper, you have Psionic Repair Damage which is awesome

As for feats, the Boost Construct and Extend Power sounds neat for a Shaper.

[The Glyphstone]

One important thing to note, as some people have, is that Psicrystals (unlike Familiars) legitimately get their own HD, and thus feats. A sneaky semi-cheese thing to do with this is load your psycrystal up with [Psionic] feats and metapsionic feats, then treat it as a juicy feat battery via the Psionic Feat Leech power.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Go Shaper, get Astral Construct, take the feats Ectopic Form: Emerald Gyre (CP) and Boost Construct, and use the Personal Construct class feature variant for Psion 5. Your personal construct can be a 3rd level Emerald Gyre with an extra Menu B ability or two extra Menu A abilities, which you can manifest as though Quickened just by expending your psionic focus, no extra powerpoint cost. I'd probably give it either Heavy Deflection or Muscle in addition to Improved Grab and Trip, just remember once you choose it you can only create that specific version quickened.

Another good trick to use is to get Psicrystal Affinity along with the powers Vigor and Share Pain. Manifest Share Pain on your Psicrystal each day, and manifest Vigor shared with it. If for example you augment Vigor to give 20 hp, you'll have a 40 hp cushion before you start taking any actual damage.

It's important to play conservatively with your powerpoints. You can easily spend everything you've got in one encounter, but that's hardly ever necessary. Make an Astral Construct and maybe throw out a debuff or damage power, such as an augmented electrical Energy Stun. After that stick to a light crossbow or maybe use Energy Ray without fully augmenting it. Items like Tanglefoot Bags and Alchemist's Fire are also good to keep on hand.

Another idea would be to go Dragonborn of Bahamut (RotD) and take the feats Entangling Exhalation (RotD) and Recover Breath (Draconomicon) and spam an entangling breath attack as often as possible to debuff and damage your foes. Entangled foes plus an Emerald Gyre grappling the most dangerous opponent means the rest of your party will have an easy time gaining favorable positions for flanking and AoOs and be more successful overall. In that case you should get a reach weapon since entangled foes have their movement slowed and cannot make a 5' adjustment. Dragonborn can't be applied to an Elan, but maybe go with a Grey Elf instead, your overall ability score adjustments will be Str -2, Int +2 and you won't even have any of the elven traits any more. Maybe even make a Dragonborn Water Halfling, which would get Str -2, Con +4, and you'd get to keep your swim speed.

[Zen Master]

One important thing to note, as some people have, is that Psicrystals (unlike Familiars) legitimately get their own HD, and thus feats.

This, naturally, is entirely your own invention. But if it gets by the GM, there's no argument.

[Graymayre]

One important thing to note, as some people have, is that Psicrystals (unlike Familiars) legitimately get their own HD, and thus feats. A sneaky semi-cheese thing to do with this is load your psycrystal up with [Psionic] feats and metapsionic feats, then treat it as a juicy feat battery via the Psionic Feat Leech power.

I like this idea a lot.

I think I'm going to abandon the astral construct idea and go for nomad with a psycrystal instead.

The question is, should I still get overchannel? It doesn't seem too useful in a teleporting specced character, plus that feat could be useful in more psycrystal stuff. I suppose I could load up the crystal with the Overchannel, Talented, and Body Fuel then use Feat Leech; but there should be better ones I can put on it that will help both of us (and those ones could potentially just go on myself).

[Samb]

I hate to tell other how to play but I have ask why nomad? Other than dimensional swap and teleport all it's other powers are very situational. You will need to sacrifice even more xp or feats to get must have powers .

Please do yourself a favor and go to the psionics board in the wizards.com forums to get a better picture of how to maximize your psion hopefully it is more convincing than we are.

Psion is considered teir 2 in terms of power but only with the right powers. If you like to contribute in ways other than being a teleport monkey then please read that thread over.
Or just google psion handbook
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=624041 here's the thread to make you not suck

[Eldariel]

This, naturally, is entirely your own invention. But if it gets by the GM, there's no argument.

No, it's quite true: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/mo...psicrystal.htm

See how it says "Its Hit Dice are equal to its master’s Hit Dice (counting only levels in psion or wilder)..." - unlike with a Familiar, it's spelled out that a Psicrystal has HD. Since the only prerequisites for acquiring feats are HD & intelligence, Psicrystal gains them just fine.

[Samb]

This, naturally, is entirely your own invention. But if it gets by the GM, there's no argument.

By the author's own admission they should not not but even he admitted that by RAW they do.

[Trouvere]

The psicrystal feat question is an eternal unresolvable argument.

The 'yes' side just points to the rule that any intelligent creature gains feats according to its HD. It's undeniable that a psicrystal has hit dice equal to its owner's.

The 'no' side points out that these hit dice are not very much like normal HD - they don't provide HP, or save progression, or skill points, so it remains open to completely reasonable doubt as to whether they provide feats.

The 'yes' side points out that the example psicrystal has the Alertness feat in its stat block, though, and its effects have been applied to its Listen and Spot skills.

However, says the 'no' side, alertness - the psicrystal property that applies to the owner's skills - is unaccountably missing from the list of special qualities, suggesting it's possible that it was simply accidentally entered in the wrong place.

The 'yes' side gets stroppy at this point, and claims that the 'no' side can't just assume that something written was an error. You have to go with the information you're given.

The 'no' side then reiterates, or points out that, given that the psicrystal entry reads "Use the statistics for a psicrystal, but make the following changes" and then fails to mention anything about feats, if psicrystals do have feats, then they strictly ought to be stuck with Alertness for their first feat (at least until that's fixed with psychic reformation, I suppose).

Then people start getting banned. Let's not do it.

[Samb]

http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archi...x.php/t-698578
has all the answers. The shhort answer in they were not indented to gain feats but by RAW they do. Even if they did not gain feats they are still great thanks to share power and then channel power. Why only have yourself morphed as a red dragon when you can have 2? Overlapping affinity fields will give you infinite chains (if your DM doesn't put a stop to it), claw of the beast make it into an attacker, acts as a decent scout too.

[The Glyphstone]

This, naturally, is entirely your own invention. But if it gets by the GM, there's no argument.

This, naturally, is entirely your own invention. But if your DM houserules in opposition to the RAW, there's not argument.

[Graymayre]

Thanks for the links Samb.

It turns out the cleric of the group has the traveler domain. While I am confident that I could do it much more effectively with the Nomad, I think I'll just become an Egoist instead with a psycrystal for that extra chedder. Dragon double attack!

[Samb]

Remember that at latter levels you can sacrifice exp for any existing power on any list. Save this for latter though because it could result in a lose of a level when you really need the power points. If there is a power you absolutly need at low levels, use expanded knowledge to get them.

At lvl 7 you can reset all your powers and feats so feels free to use feats that suit you now and change what you don't like. So if you had EK: astral construct and wanted that feat back, you could reform it to say linked power and research AC on your own. The verstility of a psion is not to be underestimated.

Don't discount AC just because you can only have one. Your construct is very capable and one is really all you need. With a psicrytal and constuct you basically get 3 turns a round! Then have quickness and schism, Oh the cheese!

[Samb]

Another resource that you should consider is hyperconscious by Bruce Cordell. The same guy the wrote CPsi and XPH. Very good feats and PrCs there and all 3.5 compatible.

Feats that should be taken in that book are permanent focus (makes one feat you use not lose focus), and persistent power. Know all the cheese that clerics do? Well now you can too!

It has a new psionic combat system in there too if you want more flavor and it is surprisingly streamed lined. If you need help on how to get it let send me a text, or just go to bruce cordell's website and get it for $9 (worth it).

[Crabs Magee]

What does /b/ the playground think of these disciplines? If I go into shaper; would it be a good move to get the overchannel, talented, and body fuel feats so I can make some uber slightly better than normal astral constructs?

Watch it, now...you may be breaking certain rules with that paragraph...and we wouldn't want that, now would we?

[Graymayre]

Watch it, now...you may be breaking certain rules with that paragraph...and we wouldn't want that, now would we?

Sorry, I know that shaper is a derogatory name for their discipline, I will call them metacreativists from now on.

[NeoVid]

I'm wondering why no one has brought up the Erudite variant Psion hidden in the back of Complete Psionic.

Or do people think it's just too evil a trick to pull on your DM?

I know it's got the potential to have every psionic power, every level 8 or lower arcane spell, and every 7th or lower divine spell... though I forget the trick to doing that.

[The Glyphstone]

Psionics fans have enough trouble fending off the mindless cries of 'TEH BROKENZ!111" - we don't need our detractors getting their hands on an honest-to-Pelor example of true undeniably psionics ubercheese...

[Drascin]

Psionics fans have enough trouble fending off the mindless cries of 'TEH BROKENZ!111" - we don't need our detractors getting their hands on an honest-to-Pelor example of true undeniably psionics ubercheese...

Yeah. Psionics has like three broken things, tops. But we get enough heat for them, so we'd rather not call anymore attention to them, thanks.

Also, seconding Hyperconscious and adding the suggestion for Untapped Potential if we're going to go third party. Nice books with nice ideas, overall.

[Devils_Advocate]

Trouvere, thanks for that summation. I was considering tracking down that argument, but I think you nicely laid out all of the points. One question, however...

any intelligent creature gains feats according to its HD.

Is that an actual rule, or just a generalization? If it's a rule, could you point me to where it is?

I know that the petitioners presented Deities and Demigods don't get feats (nor skills!), but they're hella weird like that, and I think 3.0. Still, if it is just a generalization, then psicrystals wouldn't even be the sole exception.

[Arcane_Snowman]

Is that an actual rule, or just a generalization? If it's a rule, could you point me to where it is?

here are the pertaining rules.

Feats
A monster gains feats just as a character does.

and

Intelligence

Mindless creatures do not gain feats or skills, although they may have bonus feats or racial skill bonuses.