Dragonfire Adept or Warlock?

[AB]

Hi folks,

for a upcoming campaign (maybe Underdark, Level around 10), I want to make a character of a class I´ve never played before. I looked through some splatbooks I´ve just purchased and quickly decided that I wanted to try good old Warlock with Hellfire Warlock as Prestige Class.
Then, I found the Dragonfire Adept from Dragon Magic. Same idea as the Warlock, as far as I can see, but different style.

Now, my question is: which is "better" in terms of a) fun and b) power (I keep reading that Warlock is a weak class?)? And: do you have some hints about feats, equipment, prestige classes (for the warlock, I already found the basics myself, which include Hellfire Warlock as PC and equipment like warlocks scepter etc)?

The guidelines: Level around 10, WBL as from the DMG, basically every book from the Wizards is allowed, but we normally only use 1-2 classes and not more then 1-2 prestige classes per char, plus we only use races from the PHB and the Races of Faerun, and items only from DMG and MIC.

Thanks a lot!

[Person_Man]

IMO, Dragonfire Adept is superior.

Dragonfire Adept Pros:

• Your breath effects multiple enemies, and your party members can be made immune to it's effects.
• Your breath effects are Con based (instead of Cha).
• 8 Invocations + 6 breath effects: 14 total, compared to 12 Warlock Invocations.
• Breath effects include powerful battlefield control options.
• Breath weapon can be improved with breath weapon feats (Races of the Dragon, Draconomicon)
• Never needs to make an attack roll. So go crazy with whatever armor and shields you want, because you don't care about the armor check penalty or your To-Hit roll.

Warlock Pros:

• Eldritch Blast damage is untyped and doesn't allow a Save (but does require a touch attack).
• Deceive Item at 4th level.
• 3/4 BAB. So if you want a melee build, it's available.

The only time I would consider using a Warlock over a DFA is if I knew that the DM was going to throw a ton of Evasion using enemies against me (hunt down the thieves guild! Doh!). Even then, I think the DFA has enough great invocations available that he could hold his own against any enemy.
unless you know that your DM is going to throw a ton of Evasion using enemies against you, DFA is the

[Kaiyanwang]

Even i like more warlock for flavour, DA is better IMO, for what Person_Man said

Just one thing: Warlock is Epic supported by feats in Epic Inside, DA, IIRC, is not.

[MeklorIlavator]

Well, Warlock is also useful if you're rolling for stats and get a bad rolls: it's probably the only class that could still function with only 10's(maybe even all 8's).

Oh, and it has some PrC options that can make it a bit better, though at that point you're combining with superior classes(clerics, wizards, etc) to do it.

[nightwyrm]

Well, Warlock is also useful if you're rolling for stats and get a bad rolls: it's probably the only class that could still function with only 10's(maybe even all 8's).

I'm not sure warlock is any better with bad scores compared to DFA. In any case, if you rolled all 10s, you get a reroll. DFA functions fine if you get one good score and all other scores are crap. It's one of the SAD-est class there is in 3.5. All you need is a good con.

Oh, if you're going for the DFA, you have to take entangling exhalation from Races of the Dragon. It's pretty much the only feat a DFA need.

Personally, I'd take the DFA instead of the warlock. You can get the invocation that IDs magic items for free. Saves on those pearls and allow you to use an item once you find it.

[Draz74]

Warlock is more powerful if (and only if) you trip it out with careful multiclassing and PrCs and whatnot. But DFA is stronger "out of the box."

DFA is also more fun IMHO.

[Person_Man]

Well, Warlock is also useful if you're rolling for stats and get a bad rolls: it's probably the only class that could still function with only 10's(maybe even all 8's).

Wildshape Ranger can get by with all 8's, assuming you can survive to 5th level. A Totemist can get by with a starting Con of 11 and all 10's, as it can easily get 4+ attacks and some scaled bonuses to hit and damage. A Fighter who focused solely on defense could probably pull it off as well.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Well, Warlock is also useful if you're rolling for stats and get a bad rolls: it's probably the only class that could still function with only 10's(maybe even all 8's).

Oh, and it has some PrC options that can make it a bit better, though at that point you're combining with superior classes(clerics, wizards, etc) to do it.

It's doable with straight 3s. That would be terrible, but still better than any other class(excepting massive cheese). I plan to do this if I ever actually roll that low.

[Sinfire Titan]

Wildshape Ranger can get by with all 8's, assuming you can survive to 5th level. A Totemist can get by with a starting Con of 11 and all 10's, as it can easily get 4+ attacks and some scaled bonuses to hit and damage. A Fighter who focused solely on defense could probably pull it off as well.

Although any Totemist who starts with an 11 Con will want a really decent race to make up for it.

[monty]

It's doable with straight 3s. That would be terrible, but still better than any other class(excepting massive cheese). I plan to do this if I ever actually roll that low.

Druid could handle it decently, although with that Con you'd be pretty fragile.

[Talic]

Druid could handle it decently, although with that Con you'd be pretty fragile.

That's why you send in the fleshraker instead of yourself.

[Kris Strife]

I have 3 relevant questions to this.

1. Would IUS or MWP be better for DFA?

2. Would Warmage be a good class to gestalt DFA?

3. Is there a feat that will negate ASF for DFA invocations, at least for light armor or a percentage?

[Armads]

You don't really need to avoid ASF for DFA invocations. Most of them last 24 hours so you can always recast them if you fail.

[monty]

1. Would IUS or MWP be better for DFA?

Definitely not MWP. The difference in damage between martial weapons and simple weapons of the same type is minimal enough that you'll probably get far more out of a different feat, unless your build relies on a specific weapon (like a spiked chain build, for example). IUS might be useful if you think you'll be punching a lot, but you'll probably get more damage out of your breath weapon anyway.

[Fostire]

3. Is there a feat that will negate ASF for DFA invocations, at least for light armor or a percentage?

I'm not familiar with DFA but I would ask my DM to allow casting in light armor without ASF. It seems really silly to have light armor proficiency and still have ASF.

[monty]

I'm not familiar with DFA but I would ask my DM to allow casting in light armor without ASF. It seems really silly to have light armor proficiency and still have ASF.

They don't have light armor proficiency, unless I'm reading it wrong.

[Kris Strife]

Armads: True, and theyre not per day, but I might want to switch to medium when Warmage gets proficiancy.

Monty: His combat plan would be burn and blast till theres nothing left, but it'd be nice to have something for AMFs and the like, plus Warmage gives LAP at 1st, MAP at 8th.

[monty]

Monty: His combat plan would be burn and blast till theres nothing left, but it'd be nice to have something for AMFs and the like, plus Warmage gives LAP at 1st, MAP at 8th.

True, although I doubt we'll be seeing any AMFs for a while. In that case, you may as well go with IUS, so that even if you have no mundane equipment either you can still fight.

And I was just explaining to LordRod why it wasn't as silly as he thought, not necessarily that you shouldn't bother with armor (may as well take it if you can get it).

[Demons_eye]

ASF can be reduced using twilight enchantment. -10%

[Kris Strife]

ASF can be reduced using twilight enchantment. -10%

Its a lvl 1 campaign right now, so I'd prefer a feat.

[Fostire]

They don't have light armor proficiency, unless I'm reading it wrong.

You're right, I misread. oops

[oxybe]

i'm a warlock man myself.

-spell penetration/greater spell penetration are good feats for you. eldrich blast & some invocations are affected by SR.
-Arcane Mastery (i forget the prereqs) allows you to take 10 on caster level checks. that includes SR & dispel checks.
-see unseen & devil's sight are great for making sure no one surprises you.
-detect magic at will is always nice .
-deceive device and later the ability to make magic items by substituting UMD instead of actually casting the spell can be helpful.
-EVARD'S BLACK TENTACLES @ WILL. EXCEPT BETTER (it deals some minor cold damage regardless if it grapples or not). okay, this is a higher level ability but still really nice.

[Draz74]

To play the Dragonfire Adept advocate, as it were:

-spell penetration/greater spell penetration are good feats for you. eldrich blast & some invocations are affected by SR.

This is one of the very nicest things about the DFA. Totally bypass SR with all of your breath weapons!

-Arcane Mastery (i forget the prereqs) allows you to take 10 on caster level checks. that includes SR & dispel checks.

DFA can take the same feat, but needs it less because breaths bypass SR.

-see unseen & devil's sight are great for making sure no one surprises you.

Bah, Voidsense is almost as good as both of them put together! I'll grant you that seeing through magical darkness is a handy, if minor, perk that the DFA can't match.

-detect magic at will is always nice .

And it's even better when it allows you to auto-Identify items! But it does use up an Invocation Known for the DFA, and the Warlock can do the same thing by spending 5 skill points and buying an Artificer's Monocle (1500 gp, face slot). So the DFA isn't too far ahead here.

-deceive device and later the ability to make magic items by substituting UMD instead of actually casting the spell can be helpful.

Yes, this is the Warlock's sole main advantage over the DFA. In games without Artificers, the best item-crafter is by far a Warlock/Chameleon.

-EVARD'S BLACK TENTACLES @ WILL. EXCEPT BETTER (it deals some minor cold damage regardless if it grapples or not). okay, this is a higher level ability but still really nice.

Totally trumped by SOLID FOG @ WILL. EXCEPT BETTER (cold damage).

[ChaosDefender24]

If it's warlock 20 vs. DFA 20, i'd go with the dragonfire adept any day, for the reasons already described. No need to worry about SR, incredible SAD, very durable...

However, when you drag out the warlock 9/ur-priest 1/eldritch disciple 10, there's no question.

[Flickerdart]

And then there's the "Glaivelock" that I'm not sure DFA has a parallel for.

[ChaosDefender24]

Thing about the Glaivelock is that as far as I can tell, you take a one-level dip in Warlock just for the glaive and then multi-class into things that make the most out of your melee touch 2-handed power attack... so I wouldn't really count it as a "warlock" build.

[Kris Strife]

Bah, Voidsense is almost as good as both of them put together! I'll grant you that seeing through magical darkness is a handy, if minor, perk that the DFA can't match.

Who needs to see through darkness when you have blindsight for 30ft? Unless you mean see the Unseen?

Also, DFA's get more skill points, get dragon-touched for free letting them take sorcerer only draconic feats, and at level 4 get treated as a dragon for frightful prescence purposes.

Also, whats the feat name for Warmages that lets you take any wizard/sorcerer spell for your advanced learning spells?

[ChaosDefender24]

No feat, but Alternate Class Feature: Eclectic learning.


also, ninja :)

[monty]

Also, whats the feat name for Warmages that lets you take any wizard/sorcerer spell for your advanced learning spells?

I don't know of any feats, but you're probably thinking of the Eclectic Learning ACF from PHB2.

Curse you, ninjas!!!

[Paul H]

Hi

Not sure about DFA - don't have the books. I do, however have some books for Warlock. (Currently playing a Beguiler/Warlock/Eldritch Theurge).

As for ASF, try any Light Armour for Warlocks. Best bet is to go for Mithril Chain Shirt or Mithril Breastplate, then go for Twilight ability. (Counts as +1). Twilight reduces ASF by 10%, so Mithril Shirt has no ASF nor Armour Check penalty, so good for Wiz/Warlock mixes.

Cheers
Paul H