Sublime Ur-Theurge?

[Indeed.]

How and in what proportions does this build work? I can see the basic benefits of it (Incredibly fast arcane/divine progression, rebuke undead for potential DMM cheese), but how early could one qualify and through what method?

[Flickerdart]

How and in what proportions does this build work? I can see the basic benefits of it (Incredibly fast arcane/divine progression, rebuke undead for potential DMM cheese), but how early could one qualify and through what method?

I've been shown the numbers, and it only has better spells than a straight Cleric or Wizard for a few levels (14-16 if I recall).

[Indeed.]

Hm. Well, that's alright-I plan to use the ur-theurge as a villain (maybe even a BBEG) anyway.

He will have ranks in Perform (Pipe organ) and a mansion staffed by construct guards with a system allowing his dramatic music to play throughout.

[Jack_Simth]

I've been shown the numbers, and it only has better spells than a straight Cleric or Wizard for a few levels (14-16 if I recall).

Pretty much.

Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge(Savage Bard/Ur-Priest)-3/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge(Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord)-5/Arcane Advancement PrC of Choice (Sublime-Chord)-4 is the "usual" build.

At 20th, it's got both 9th level Arcane and 9th level Divine spells... but the spells-per-day are so low that it can't really keep up with a proper Wizard or Cleric. It's also got split casting stats (Charisma, Wisdom), and the skill requirements mean it also needs a fairly high Intelligence. The biggest reason it's an overpowered build is because it gets high-level spells early. Even then, it's only ahead on spell access until 17th (when the Cleric and Wizard get 9th level spells), and it doesn't get ahead on spell access until at least 14th (effective Ur-Priest level of 8, for 8th level spells... if you have that much Wisdom bonus; 15th for Ur-Priest level 9, otherwise). So basically, it's overpowered for a three level window. A "pure" Ur-Priest (say... Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-10) has a larger window of early spell access - character level 12-16, Ur-Priest level 7-10 (and only Ur-Priest 7 if you've got a +7 or better Wisdom modifier - otherwise, you need to wait another level before you're ahead on spell access).

Ultimately, the problem with the build is that the Ur-Priest PrC is rather unbalanced.

[Indeed.]

Alright, I'll work with Savage Bard/Ur-Priest then, or just regular Bard/Ur-Priest. I assume Savage Bard is in Races of the Wild or some similarly flavored supplement?

[sonofzeal]

Alright, I'll work with Savage Bard/Ur-Priest then, or just regular Bard/Ur-Priest. I assume Savage Bard is in Races of the Wild or some similarly flavored supplement?

Unearthed Arcana, actually.

[Flickerdart]

As a villain, he won't be too different from a straight Cleric or Bard. His large amount of overall spell slots doesn't come into play because the PCs don't seem him on screen much, and he doesn't have to wade through dungeons. Sure, they'll see him casting a mix or Arcane and Divine spells, but that's not that much different from a Wizard/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge, or any other normal Theurge. You might want to give him something more flavourful instead, such as Dirgesinger levels.

[Draz74]

Alright, I'll work with Savage Bard/Ur-Priest then, or just regular Bard/Ur-Priest. I assume Savage Bard is in Races of the Wild or some similarly flavored supplement?

Savage Bard rather than Bard is part of the "normal" build because normal Bard doesn't get the Fort Save prereq requirement for Ur-Priest by Level 5.

[Fishy]

If you dislike Unearthed Arcana and have a few extra skill points lying around, a 1-level Mindbender dip fixes your fort save problems nicely. And gives you telepathy!

[fireinthedust]

If you reeeeeeally want to crunch out a BBEG ur-priest Theurge, do you have to be Human?

Lords of Madness has Beholder options that could be ridiculously fun to build. My book's at home, but I recall the Beholder Mage, and another build for an Elder Orb. Basically you get fast Arcane spells, and you can exchange one eyestalk's power for a spell level to cast at will (1st level, 2nd, etc.), IIRC (which I might not).

Basically, take enough levels of this, then of Ur priest, then Theurge up to 10+ for an epic villain. I think it can jump right into the PrCs, but I'm not sure. Basically you'd have full Arcane and Divine caster with fewer levels needed (though they'd still be a Beholder). Take a few rounds to buff with the (anti)cleric spells, then wade in with arcane firepower; or stop mid-combat with Timestop, buff up, and go at it.

You'd want powerful PCs or you risk TPK... but depending on how muncie your players are, this could be what they've got coming (if I have my math right).

On that note, a Dragon Ur-priest/sorcerer could be pretty intense. They count as having sorcerer levels anyway, so they could jump right in.


Either way, powerful monster (with minion potential, some with lower-levels of their own build) that wants to defeat the gods and steal their power.

[Jack_Simth]

Lords of Madness has Beholder options that could be ridiculously fun to build. My book's at home, but I recall the Beholder Mage, and another build for an Elder Orb. Basically you get fast Arcane spells, and you can exchange one eyestalk's power for a spell level to cast at will (1st level, 2nd, etc.), IIRC (which I might not).

A Beholder Mage is ridiculously lethal. Ten spells per round (at 10th). How would you like to get hit with a Delayed Blast Fireball, Freezing Sphere, and Cone of Cold all at once? Especially if you pick up Practiced Spellcaster (Beholder Mage). And that's ignoring the ability to use Save-Or-Lose spells instead (like Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, and Wail of the Banshee).

[wadledo]

I wanted to play that in Krimms game, but i was cut down.

And it really is only 9 spells a round, seeing as how 0 level spells are completely worthless.

[fireinthedust]

A Beholder Mage is ridiculously lethal. Ten spells per round (at 10th). How would you like to get hit with a Delayed Blast Fireball, Freezing Sphere, and Cone of Cold all at once? Especially if you pick up Practiced Spellcaster (Beholder Mage). And that's ignoring the ability to use Save-Or-Lose spells instead (like Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, and Wail of the Banshee).

I totally wouldn't!

But I'm thinking about how to max out spells using Ur Priest and Mystic Theurge here, not whether it'd be fun to fight one. Realistically this would be the BBEG of an epic campaign. A solo monster in (gasp) 4e terms.

Also, I've had horrible games where munchkin high-level players (who know 3.x waaaaay better than I do) ruin entire armies with their builds. To challenge epic-level PCs run by people like this, I think a DM needs brutal BBEGs, if only to present PCs with a challenge.

Imagine the PCs are all Drow, a half-troll barbarian, and other more-powerful PCs.

[wadledo]

Imagine the PCs are all Drow, a half-troll barbarian, and other more-powerful PCs.

Not to mock your claim, but Drow are not that impressive, and Half Troll is a terrible trade for 4 LA.

[Gnorman]

But how could the Beholder play the pipe organ? Eyestalk-mashing?

[fireinthedust]

Organ: Beholder mages have Mage Hand. Also, it could play using eye-stalks.