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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    I have been giving some thoughts to Fighters lately. I don't think they get enough lovin'. I am thinking about the following changes and want to put it forward to everyone and see what you think about it.

    Fighters, at class level 3, gain the Feat Training ability (see below).
    At level 5, they gain the Weapon Focus Mastery ability (see below).
    At level 7, they gain the Weapon Specialization Mastery ability (see below).
    At level 9, their Feat Training ability improves and they gain the Hustle ability (see below).
    At level 11, they would gain the Weapon Aptitude ability identical to Warblades.
    At level 13, they gain the Feat Efficiency ability (see below).
    At level 16, their Feat Training ability improves (see below).
    At level 17, they gain the Feat Mastery ability (see below).
    At level 19 they may use their Fortitude save in the place of their Reflex or Will save when attempting to avoid damage or resist mind-affecting effects.

    Feat Training (Ex): At level 3, select a particular attribute. Your ability score, for meeting the prerequisites of feats, is considered four higher than it actually is. When you reach levels 9 the attribute selected at level 3 has its effective score increased by two and the fighter selects a new attribute and may consider that attribute increased by four. At level 15 both attributes selected at previous levels have their effective score increased by two and you select a third attribute to increase by four. These increases are not actual increases but only effective increases for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of feats.

    Weapon Focus Mastery (Ex): The bonus granted by all your Weapon Focus feat(s) is increased to half your class level (instead of +1). When the Fighter reaches class level 9, they are considered to have Greater Weapon Focus for the purposes of meeting prerequisites. At level 17, they are considered to have Epic Weapon Focus for the purpose of meeting prerequisites.

    Weapon Specialization Mastery (Ex): The bonus to damage granted by all your Weapon Specialization feat(s) is increased to a bonus equal to your class level (instead of +2). When the Fighter reaches class level 13, they are considered to have Greater Weapon Specializations for the purposes of meeting prerequisites. At level 19, they are considered to have Epic Weapon Specialization for the purpose of meeting prerequisites.

    Hustle (Ex): Fighter may take a move action as a swift action if they make no other movement in the round.

    Feat Efficiency (Ex): When you use a feat that allows you to use your Base Attack Bonus towards another purpose (Power Attack, Combat Expertise, etc) you retain half the BAB you would apply towards that feat. This does not allow you to use more than your normal full BAB towards that feat.

    Feat Mastery (Ex): When you use a feat that allows you to use your Base Attack Bonus towards another purpose (Power Attack, Expertise, etc) you retain all the BAB you would apply towards this feat. This does not allow you to use more than your normal full BAB towards that feat. You may only apply this ability towards one feat in any given round.

    Opinions?
    Last edited by Fixer; 2009-08-11 at 07:07 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Sexy. I like that your fix doesn't change the basic flavor of the fighter: non-nonsense, customizable, and at its core stripped down to the basics. There are lots of more effective melee base classes than the standard fighter, but they tend to add fluff that a fighter just... shouldn't have. This one simply makes the fighter better at what it should be doing.

    Thumbs up! This is a fighter I wouldn't be ashamed to play.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Well... just be careful of a Fighter who uses a Lance, mounted on a Warhorse charges (he has Spirited Charge)...

    3d8 + [9 (1.5*str) + 20 (WS) + 20 (GWS) + 40 (Power Attack)] x3 = 289 damage.

    Add in a Valorous Lance and you increase the damage multiplier by 1, adding 1d8+89 = 93 damage.

    On a crit, add in a further 2d8 + 178 damage.

    Mind you, this is employing only a bit of optimization (but charger builds are not uncommon) and mounted combat is not optimal, but still...

    With Leap Attack and no mounted combat, we get...

    2d6 + 9 + 20 (WS) + 20 (GWS) + 60 (Power Attack) = 2d6 + 109

    WS specialty applies to all WS feats. They stack with each other...

    I'd say with Leap Attack and always Power Attacking for full, a Fighter will be able to dish out respectable damage without resorting to too much cheese. I would suggest to change the 17th level ability to something else though. As he is, the fighter might be dealing with too much attack bonus. Let's do a quick calculation:

    20 BAB + 6 Str + 10 (WF) + Enhancement bonus (likely to be +5) + Circumstance bonus (i.e. Charging)

    +41 attack bonus (and it won't go down with Power Attack). That's a tad overkill most of the time. I understand that a Fighter is supposed to be really really good, but it would be a bit boring if he autohits everything. Keep Feat Efficiency, but I would suggest something else at lvl 17. Maybe something along the lines of an Epic Virtue from The Demented One's Epic Hero homebrew class.

    This fix is still simple and elegant, and newbie friendly. Thumbs up!

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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    This is a pretty sweet fix to an otherwise practically useless class

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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    This is interesting but does still not adress some of the major fighter issues:
    MAD: fighters still need 13 Dexterity for the Dodge and Combat Reflexes tree if they want anything from there (with splat books there are some pretty decent stuff)
    13 Intelligence is still needed for Combat Expertise tree, which is likewise quite extensive and also needed for one of the fighter's best tricks (Improved Trip)
    they still have an abysmally low Will save and no way of doing anything about it before level 19.

    THEY STILL DON'T HAVE SPOT/LISTEN AS CLASS SKILLS!, I mean how the heck is the fighter going to be anything in the likes of a guard/watchman when he can't even see further than the bridge of his damn nose?

    Your chart is also way off: Wizards have better things to do than throwing fireballs and damage around, Look at Color Spray and Sleep to incapasitate and subsequently coup-de-grace opponents etc. By level 7 the Wizard will be capable of Turning into a Hydra if he really is inclined towards dealing damage: that would be a maximum of 7d10+28 damage on a full-round attack, 65 damage average against the fighter's supposed 20-34.

    Rogues work a heck of a lot better with TWF, since you're using splat books I can't see why a rogue wouldn't be allowed to go for Weapon Finesse, Martial Maneuver, Martial Stance (Assassins Stance), Shadow Hand and Two Weapon Fighting. Two weapon fighting alone grants the rogue 1d6+1d6+1d6+1d6 damage at level one, which averages out to 14, above the fighter. By level 20 a Rogue will be able to deal: 12d6 worth of sneak attack with 6 attacks (discouting Haste) + Dex on every attack.

    The problem never really been that fighters can't sword well, Leap Pouncers prove otherwise, but they don't have enough options when swording is not available. Which brings me to another point, why does the fighter have Spring Attack/Whirlwind attack, is he afraid of success or something, those feats are abominably sub par, you'd be better off with something from the Power Attack/Combat Expertise/Combat Reflex Tree, getting Shock Trooper/Combat Brute or Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit etc.
    Last edited by Arcane_Snowman; 2009-03-21 at 07:31 AM.

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    confused Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fixer View Post
    ...Weapon Focus Specialty... ...Weapon Specialization Specialty...
    Surely you could have come up with better names then these. I mean, weapon specialization specialty? seriously? I can't see anyone saying that with a straight face.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tensu View Post
    Surely you could have come up with better names then these. I mean, weapon specialization specialty? seriously? I can't see anyone saying that with a straight face.
    Harsh. True, but harsh. Seriously, coming up with decent names can be the hardest part of serious homebrewing. Try it sometime, if you haven't.

    @Fixer: These look fun and powerful, but I'll echo some other people that they don't really solve the Fighter's problems (bad saves at earlier levels, reliance on getting full attacks, etc.).
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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    How about a feat chaining from Spring Attack that allows movement with a full attack, with a req of Fighter 10?
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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    How do the Greater & Epic versions of Weapon Focus/Specialization work with the new abilities?
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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Snowman View Post
    This is interesting but does still not adress some of the major fighter issues:
    MAD: fighters still need 13 Dexterity for the Dodge and Combat Reflexes tree if they want anything from there (with splat books there are some pretty decent stuff)
    This one, at least, I thought of a solution for over the weekend. I have updated the chart above to display the changes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Snowman View Post
    THEY STILL DON'T HAVE SPOT/LISTEN AS CLASS SKILLS!, I mean how the heck is the fighter going to be anything in the likes of a guard/watchman when he can't even see further than the bridge of his damn nose?
    Fighters aren't guards. Fighters are killers. They hit other people with sticks until they fall down. If you want them on watch, give them an animal with good skills (that is what they do in real life).
    Quote Originally Posted by Siosilvar View Post
    How do the Greater & Epic versions of Weapon Focus/Specialization work with the new abilities?
    The fighter CAN still take them, but the benefit they would gain from them would be negligible compared to what regular Weapon Focus and regular Weapon Specialization would grant. Those feats might be useful to other classes but the fighter is simply more efficient in that aspect. I could add, at the various levels, where the fighter is considered to automatically possess those feats at certain levels, for the purposes of meeting prerequisites but I forget what books those are in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tensu View Post
    Surely you could have come up with better names then these. I mean, weapon specialization specialty? seriously? I can't see anyone saying that with a straight face.
    Give me better names and I will use them. I am not good with thinking up good names. Be constructive as opposed to criticizing if you want any further responses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    These look fun and powerful, but I'll echo some other people that they don't really solve the Fighter's problems (bad saves at earlier levels, reliance on getting full attacks, etc.).
    The saves problem can be solved by magic items (resistances, mind blank, etc) at least as much as these problems can be solved by anything. The build example I gave was actually IMMUNE to mind control at level 3. They can still be targetted, but they cannot be controlled due to the Planar Ward. Magic Items (i.e. cloaks of resistance) can help with the saves issue until level 19.

    The reliance on full attacks... ok, I will grant you that one. I think adding an ability that allows the fighter to make a move action as a swift action will help a great deal. Let me think on where to add it. Obviously not before level 6, as the fighter can't get iterative attacks before then.
    Last edited by Fixer; 2009-03-23 at 07:15 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pramxnim View Post
    2d6 + 9 + 20 (WS) + 20 (GWS) + 60 (Power Attack) = 2d6 + 109

    WS specialty applies to all WS feats. They stack with each other...
    No it doesn't. The ability specifies Weapon Specialization. Greater Weapon Specialization does only what the feat says and its bonus is not increased by this Fighter ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pramxnim View Post
    I'd say with Leap Attack and always Power Attacking for full, a Fighter will be able to dish out respectable damage without resorting to too much cheese. I would suggest to change the 17th level ability to something else though. As he is, the fighter might be dealing with too much attack bonus. Let's do a quick calculation:

    20 BAB + 6 Str + 10 (WF) + Enhancement bonus (likely to be +5) + Circumstance bonus (i.e. Charging)

    +41 attack bonus (and it won't go down with Power Attack). That's a tad overkill most of the time. I understand that a Fighter is supposed to be really really good, but it would be a bit boring if he autohits everything. Keep Feat Efficiency, but I would suggest something else at lvl 17. Maybe something along the lines of an Epic Virtue from The Demented One's Epic Hero homebrew class.

    This fix is still simple and elegant, and newbie friendly. Thumbs up!
    +41 attack bonus may seem like overkill, but I wanted it made certain that the Fighter does what the fighter does best better than anyone else: Hitting bad things with sticks to make them fall down. Dragons, at highest levels, have ACs that are that high WITHOUT boosts from magic items or spells (both of which dragons have access to).

    Compared to what Clerics and Wizards are doing at level 17, Feat Mastery is borderline equivalent in terms of power, but completely lacking compared in versatility. That ability lets a fighter do well what a fighter is supposed to do best: hit things until they fall down.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    The only issue with this that I see is...

    Rogues get completely shafted without alot of tweaking / splat books.

    At level 20, they do half damage when flanking the target.

    I have the feeling you'll need a 'Rogue Fix' for any game close to Core-only that includes this 'Fighter Fix'.

    It is one thing to say 'Hey Rogue, your not going to be equal to a Fighter in terms of combat power.' it is quite another to say 'Hey Rogue, it takes two of you and proper positioning for you to have the combat power of a Fighter.'

    My two cents would be:
    Give Rogues a way to get to at least 75% (with Sneak Attacks) of the Fighter's damage. Otherwise, they'd feel like cripples in combat.

    Yes, they are great skill monkeys for the Core-only crowd. But let us be honest, in terms of time spent 'skill monkeying' and time spent 'in combat':

    You will be spending more (real world) time fighting battles.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomFellow View Post
    The only issue with this that I see is...

    Rogues get completely shafted without alot of tweaking / splat books.

    At level 20, they do half damage when flanking the target.

    I have the feeling you'll need a 'Rogue Fix' for any game close to Core-only that includes this 'Fighter Fix'.

    It is one thing to say 'Hey Rogue, your not going to be equal to a Fighter in terms of combat power.' it is quite another to say 'Hey Rogue, it takes two of you and proper positioning for you to have the combat power of a Fighter.'

    My two cents would be:
    Give Rogues a way to get to at least 75% (with Sneak Attacks) of the Fighter's damage. Otherwise, they'd feel like cripples in combat.

    Yes, they are great skill monkeys for the Core-only crowd. But let us be honest, in terms of time spent 'skill monkeying' and time spent 'in combat':

    You will be spending more (real world) time fighting battles.
    I have serious issues with rogues being played as combat-types. Rogues are the type of character who (should) believe that if you have to fight, you have already screwed up somewhere. Rogues, as skill-monkeys, are just fine. If they want to be more combat-oriented, they need to take a combat-oriented class or prestige class. Rogues, as skill monkeys using Core and Splat, are just fine as they are.

    To give an excellent example of something that happened this weekend to me. I was playing a warblade and a buddy of mine was playing a rogue. We had a disagreement about a course of action so we agree to spar (in a darkened warehouse filled with stacks of boxes) to see who gets to decide. The rogue uses bluff to gain a hide roll (I had no ranks in Spot) and he hides. My warblade readied an action for when he attacked to counterattack.

    He never attacked. He quietly snuck out of the building, went to do what he wanted to do, then came back and gave in and we did what I wanted to do. THAT is how a rogue is supposed to be played: Smart.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    I'm not so sure this works as a fix. Certainly, it does expand improve their ability to cause hit point damage with attack actions. However, I don't really think the problem with the fighter (and melee classes in general) is staggering deficiency in that department.

    It solves the full-attack issue at least, through hustle. Which is nice. However it feels like a somewhat inelegant solution, that doesn't fit well thematically.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fixer View Post
    .. Rogues are the type of character who (should) believe that if you have to fight, you have already screwed up somewhere. ...
    The problem with that logic is...it is a matter of personal play style.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    I'm not so sure this works as a fix. Certainly, it does expand improve their ability to cause hit point damage with attack actions. However, I don't really think the problem with the fighter (and melee classes in general) is staggering deficiency in that department.

    It solves the full-attack issue at least, through hustle. Which is nice. However it feels like a somewhat inelegant solution, that doesn't fit well thematically.
    Ok, your statement does nothing to say specifically what problems this particular fighter has. What was your point?
    Quote Originally Posted by RandomFellow View Post
    The problem with that logic is...it is a matter of personal play style.
    Please explain. Rogues are given light armor, mediocre BAB, massive skill bonuses for stealth and social interactions, and little along the way of combat abilities. How do you see rogues as combat oriented?
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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    I see Sneak Attack as a rogue's main feature, not their skills. Any class can get skills. Maybe not as many skills at the same time, but they can be gotten. Intelligence is not class-specific either (related to the example you gave where the rogue outsmarted you).

    Skills are a big part of a rogue, yes, but being the highest-damage non-magic class ("glass cannons", if you will) is a big part of them too, and higher in my opinion. I'm not asking that you share this opinion, just that you see that it's an option. If you were to implement this fighter fix, I would at least double a rogue's sneak attack damage.

    Rogues aren't the only ones you're making obsolete, though. Think about the paladins. Their Smite Evil is nothing if you implement this fix. And barbarians? Their Rage doesn't compare.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingpoo22 View Post
    I see Sneak Attack as a rogue's main feature, not their skills. Any class can get skills. Maybe not as many skills at the same time, but they can be gotten. Intelligence is not class-specific either (related to the example you gave where the rogue outsmarted you).

    Skills are a big part of a rogue, yes, but being the highest-damage meleers is a big part of them too, and higher in my opinion. I'm not asking that you share opinion, just that you see that it's an option. If you were to implement this fighter fix, I would at least double a rogue's sneak attack damage.

    Rogues aren't the only ones you're making obsolete, though. Think about the paladins. Their Smite Evil is nothing if you implement this fix. And barbarians? Their Rage doesn't compare.
    One class at a time. All the classes need a bar to go to, and given that druids and wizards are considered the top bar, I am setting the Fighter to match them. What I want to know is: does this Fighter class (not necessarily the build I made) hold his own with a wizard or druid of equal level, provided both sides are unaware of the specifics of the other.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    What books/spells are you allowing? Assuming pretty good optimization and minimal cheese:

    Orb of Acid: 15d6 + 7.5d6 (Empower) + 15d6 (Twin) + 15d6 (Admixture) + 15d6 (Repeat) = 67.5d6 = 236.25 Average Damage

    Quickened Orb of Acid: Same - Twin = 52.5d6 = 183.75 Average Damage

    236.25 + 183.75 = 420 Average Damage per Round

    Disintegrate: 40d6 + 20d6 (Empower) + 40d6 (Twin) + 40d6 (Repeat) = 140d6 = 490 Average Damage

    Quickened Disintegrate: Same - Twin = 100d6 = 350 Average Damage

    490 + 350 = 840 Average Damage per Round

    Fighter Full Attack: 2d6 (Greatsword) + 20 (Strength) + 60 (Leap Attacked Power Attack) + 20 (Weapon Specialization) + 9d6 (Items) + 1 (Weapon Enhancement Bonus) = 108 + 9d6 = 139.5 x 5 = 697.5 Average Damage per Round

    Rogue Weapon One: 1d8 (Rapier) + 5 (Strength) + 10d6 (Sneak Attack) + 9d6 (Items) + 1 (Weapon Enhancement Bonus) + 20 (Craven) = 97 x 4 = 388 Average Damage

    Rogue Weapon Two: 1d4 (Dagger) + 2 (Strength) + 10d6 (Sneak Attack) + 9d6 (Items) + 1 (Weapon Enhancement Bonus) + 20 (Craven) = 82 x 3 = 276 Average Damage

    388 + 276 = 664 Average Damage per Round

    Items were assumed to be +9 worth of damage on the weapon, plus some random things from other items, feats, class-dipping, whatever. Strength bonuses were generous to account for these as well.

    The arcane caster will be much weaker than the fighter at lower levels, damage-wise, and will slowly rise to his level. It is much easier for the caster to get his damage off, however he is limited in spells per day, and with disintegrate, by saving throws. A fighter's ability to deal 697.5 damage instead of 139.5 depends on circumstance. In addition, the caster will generally have an easier time of hitting their target, although with your Weapon Focus and Power Attack upgrades this may have changed. The rogue has an extremely low chance of hitting compared to the other two, so that should be kept in mind while looking at him. Hopefully something in this post helped.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingpoo22 View Post
    What books/spells are you allowing? Assuming pretty good optimization and minimal cheese:

    Orb of Acid: 15d6 + 7.5d6 (Empower) + 15d6 (Twin) + 15d6 (Admixture) + 15d6 (Repeat) = 67.5d6 = 236.25 Average Damage

    Quickened Orb of Acid: Same - Twin = 52.5d6 = 183.75 Average Damage

    236.25 + 183.75 = 420 Average Damage per Round

    Disintegrate: 40d6 + 20d6 (Empower) + 40d6 (Twin) + 40d6 (Repeat) = 140d6 = 490 Average Damage

    Quickened Disintegrate: Same - Twin = 100d6 = 350 Average Damage

    490 + 350 = 840 Average Damage per Round
    How the hell is your mage casting 17th or 20th level spells? You can't use more than one metamagic rod on a given spell at a time.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fixer View Post
    Ok, your statement does nothing to say specifically what problems this particular fighter has. What was your point?
    Please explain. Rogues are given light armor, mediocre BAB, massive skill bonuses for stealth and social interactions, and little along the way of combat abilities. How do you see rogues as combat oriented?
    I never said they were 'combat oriented'. I said they would feel like cripples in combat when they are doing half the damage of Fighters. They should be dealing 3/4s of what a Fighter can dish out.

    They don't have the survivability of a Fighter. They don't have the damage of the Fighter.

    That is fine. Being essentially a 'half fighter' in terms of damage in combat, is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomFellow
    I have the feeling you'll need a 'Rogue Fix' for any game close to Core-only that includes this 'Fighter Fix'.
    ...

    Give Rogues a way to get to at least 75% (with Sneak Attacks) of the Fighter's damage. Otherwise, they'd feel like cripples in combat.
    ...

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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    I'm not the OP, but the thread title talks about fighter fixes, not rogue fixes. Maybe I missed it, but this thread is about Fighters. It is not about his campaign or world, but his fix. His sharing of his fix. The Rogue issue is moot, because, if his party is okay with this, then it doesn't matter. You don't have to use this fix; he doesn't have to fix the rogues. Your 'combat rogue' is just as much a player style as his 'sneaking rogues' are.

    EDIT: Man, that really just wandered. I cannot talk today.
    Last edited by Halna LeGavilk; 2009-03-23 at 07:22 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomFellow View Post
    I never said they were 'combat oriented'. I said they would feel like cripples in combat when they are doing half the damage of Fighters. They should be dealing 3/4s of what a Fighter can dish out.

    They don't have the survivability of a Fighter. They don't have the damage of the Fighter.

    That is fine. Being essentially a 'half fighter' in terms of damage in combat, is not.
    Any rogue-fix I'd be making would focus more on their skills than their combat abilities. Disabling attackers, turning attacks back on their attacker or diverting them towards other targets, combat acrobatics to avoid attacks/set up for SA, fast-use of skills, HiPS and using their sneak attack against things normally immune as CLASS features (instead of relying on magic items or prestige classes), probably some other things I can't think of at the moment. Their damage would not be comparable with a Fighter, but their ability to avoid taking damage would be far superior to that of a Fighter.

    Now, if I took upon myself fixing the swashbuckler, THAT would be a combat-oriented rogue-type.

    EDIT: Now that I have thought about it, after I am satisfied that the Fighter fix is decent, I will work on a Monk-fix. The Monk is far more in need of fixing than the Rogue.
    Last edited by Fixer; 2009-03-23 at 07:34 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fixer View Post
    How the hell is your mage casting 17th or 20th level spells? You can't use more than one metamagic rod on a given spell at a time.
    No offense, but if you don't know this, I think you should investigate 3e optimization a little more before you start making fixes.

    Metamagic School Focus (-1 total), Easy Metmagic (-1 total), Arcane Thesis (-1 per metamagic), incantatrix class ability (-1 total). Not sure which of these I applied, or if I added another one. The cheese crops up when you use Arcane Thesis with +0 level metamagics, but I didn't do any of that. There's also the Sudden metamagic feats that I didn't put in, because they are only once per day, but a mage's burst damage could be even higher.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by Halna LeGavilk View Post
    I'm not the OP, but the thread title talks about fighter fixes, not rogue fixes. Maybe I missed it, but this thread is about Fighters. It is not about his campaign or world, but his fix. His sharing of his fix. The Rogue issue is moot, because, if his party is okay with this, then it doesn't matter. You don't have to use this fix; he doesn't have to fix the rogues. Your 'combat rogue' is just as much a player style as his 'sneaking rogues' are.

    EDIT: Man, that really just wandered. I cannot talk today.
    o0

    You completely missed the point. But hey, it looks like he still is too.

    I'll just stay out of this from now on.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    I love Feat Training and Hustle; they both do work around the major weaknesses of the Fighter, but I'm not so sure about all the abilities to pump up attack and damage. It seems at high levels fighters will smash all the other melee classes. Your fighter seems to get what amounts to a stronger Smite Evil with every attack and with +17 AC; an AC only fighters will be likely to hit. I've played in campaigns that tried similar fixes, and the end result was other characters pretty much giving up on AC protecting them from fighters and focusing on concealment instead.

    I think you should try to better explain what it is you feel is wrong with fighters, because I really don't think attack rolls are the problem.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingpoo22 View Post
    No offense, but if you don't know this, I think you should investigate 3e optimization a little more before you start making fixes.

    Metamagic School Focus (-1 total), Easy Metmagic (-1 total), Arcane Thesis (-1 per metamagic), incantatrix class ability (-1 total). Not sure which of these I applied, or if I added another one. The cheese crops up when you use Arcane Thesis with +0 level metamagics, but I didn't do any of that. There's also the Sudden metamagic feats that I didn't put in, because they are only once per day, but a mage's burst damage could be even higher.
    [sarcasm]If you could be a little more elitist or condescending I am sure people will listen to you more. After all, everyone loves to hear they should do more research about a subject that the topic has nothing to do with. Especially when, IN THE VERY FIRST POST, the topic creator says they know there are better ways of causing more damage as a wizard.[/sarcasm]

    This was for straight class comparison, so incantatrix shouldn't even be in there. Easy Metamagic comes from a Dragon magazine, which are not often allowed. The other two are fine, and apply to only one school of magic or one particular spell. Should the Fighter do his homework and know what the wizard specializes in, he can compensate for the damage he's expecting. Wizards aren't the only smart people.
    Quote Originally Posted by cherez View Post
    I love Feat Training and Hustle; they both do work around the major weaknesses of the Fighter, but I'm not so sure about all the abilities to pump up attack and damage. It seems at high levels fighters will smash all the other melee classes. Your fighter seems to get what amounts to a stronger Smite Evil with every attack and with +17 AC; an AC only fighters will be likely to hit. I've played in campaigns that tried similar fixes, and the end result was other characters pretty much giving up on AC protecting them from fighters and focusing on concealment instead.

    I think you should try to better explain what it is you feel is wrong with fighters, because I really don't think attack rolls are the problem.
    What I see 'wrong' with Fighters is that their damage output goes up insignificantly by level. Even if they use PA to increase their damage output, they do so at the cost of attack ability (or, with a feat, AC which makes them glass cannons). Even if they were to have comparable damage output to the normal glass cannons (wizards) they still have the crappy saves, but wizards have the crappy HP so that sort of evens out in the end.

    To be clear: the other melee classes are also underpowered, which is why they'd need rewrites too. This is to change the Fighter to be up to the top bar with wizards.

    This fix removes the glass cannon effect from fighters (they can now PA for full if they wish and have a decent chance to score a hit), provides a bit more versatility (changing weapon focus/weapon specialization feats, etc), and can allow them to tank well (with Improved Combat Expertise). Wizards can do all these things with spells. A fighter, with this fix, can do them with feats instead.

    The wizard can still do many things fighters cannot, even with feats, while a fighter can still take care of himself in an anti-magic field, where a wizard is largely screwed. Each is now more balanced and versatile without either overwhelming the other. At epic levels, AC goes up drastically, and the Fighter's BAB will not keep up, hence the Weapon Focus helping make up the difference.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Um this class fix doesn't work all that well.

    The central problem is HP damage becomes obsolete at the high levels. I don't care how much damage you can do, It's called Flesh to Stone.

    Somewhere in the lv.10-15 range, HP damage as a whole becomes terrible as enemies have huge hps and their own Save or Dies as SLAs ect. Hp damage just sucks.

    Additionally, bear in mind that no matter how good your class is at hitting things with sticks you won't really stack up well with a Wizard.

    Why? Because obsoleteing troops is better than damaging them. Glitterdust will effectivley kill everything it hits at the early levels. Solid Fog will take an enemy entirley out of combat for it's duration. Tentacles will win enounters single-handedly.

    All this, AND the Wizard still teleports, Sees invisible guys, buffs the party, opens locks, is the party face, shapes stone, and generally does everything you can imagine.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by aje8 View Post
    The central problem is HP damage becomes obsolete at the high levels. I don't care how much damage you can do, It's called Flesh to Stone.
    Do explain. I fail to see how Flesh to Stone stops HP damage.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Fighter Fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by aje8 View Post
    Glitterdust will effectivley kill everything it hits at the early levels.
    ...what?

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Glitterdust
    Conjuration (Creation)
    Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
    Components: V, S, M
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
    Area: Creatures and objects within 10-ft.-radius spread
    Duration: 1 round/level
    Saving Throw: Will negates (blinding only)
    Spell Resistance: No

    A cloud of golden particles covers everyone and everything in the area, causing creatures to become blinded and visibly outlining invisible things for the duration of the spell. All within the area are covered by the dust, which cannot be removed and continues to sparkle until it fades.

    Any creature covered by the dust takes a -40 penalty on Hide checks.

    Material Component
    Ground mica.

    Blinded
    The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.
    Since when has being blinded for a few rounds and covered in shiny dust been a death sentence? Anyway, you're not exactly being helpful, there. You're basically saying, "Wizards always own no matter what you do, so don't bother trying to even even things out the tiniest bit because it will do no good! No, don't try! It's a waste of time! DON'T DO IT! YOU'RE ONLY HURTING YOURSELF!"
    ...
    I may have gotten a little carried away, there.

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