Artificer: Why is it regarded as cheese? (3.5)

[Frog Dragon]

I often find comments saying that artificers are better than batman wizards. Hell, I actually found a comment that an artificer 20 could stand up to Pun-Pun. I haven't been able to find the cheeseburgers. So what makes the artificer so cheesy?

[Zincorium]

The problem is that there are entire books of magic items that were intended to appear sparingly and have limited uses.

Artificers, if built well, can walk all over those assumptions. Like Pun-Pun, this is an example of the law of unintended consequences. Candle of invocation? Nightsticks? Belt of Battle? Artificers can toss those around unless the DM puts their foot down, which is always the deciding factor on these things.

Pun-Pun is unbeatable because all of the tricks used to compete with him can be turned around and put to use within a round at most. Artificer just annoys the DM.

[Da Beast]

There's an artificer build called the omnificer (I think) that can, at level 4 (once, again, I think but I'm not sure. It's been a while since I saw the build) can get an infinite bonus to certain checks. When I say infinite, I don't mean like Pun-Pun who can permanently boost his modifiers and is only limited by how much time he has to work with, but an actually modifier of +infinity.

Beyond that one, very very cheesy build, artificer's break the wealth by level guidelines, can cook up some truly nasty blasting abilities with their ability to apply metamagic to wands, and build whatever utility items they need. They also have decent spellcasting to fall back on should they ever find themselves without items. It's a stretch to say that a lvl 20 artificer could take on Pun-Pun, but it'll certainly be very powerful.

[BobVosh]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1066097
It is a level 4 build that beat pun-pun prior to punpun being a level 1 build. It beat punpun by knowing everything, every combo, and how to stop anything by having an infinite knowledge check due to an infinite damage loop.

Also other than the normal break D&D with > WBL there is break D&D with reduced metamagics. Charges in wands/staves are cheap to the artificier and easier to blow through than increased spell level metamagics.

[mostlyharmful]

They're the leading casters, they can make scrolls of stuff two levels ahead of full casters, with XP and gold reducers and that quill that writes it for you your character can be casting a spell level ahead of batman..... he's messing around with glitterdust? you've got that and haste, he's on disintergrate and you've got that when it's needed but you can also crank out reverse gravity or any of the cleric spells..... This is one of a number of good features.

Much like Druids there's no one single thing that puts them over the top but the accumulation of strong, syncronized class features that all work best if thought about intelligently mean that the more work you put into it the more powerful you get. Reading through every suppliment and using basically every spell, item and monster to increase your options is Batmans strength. The Artifacer does it faster, cheaper and better but is likewise even more work to play.

[Arcane_Snowman]

They're the leading casters; they can make scrolls of stuff two levels ahead of full casters, with XP and gold reducers and that quill that writes it for you your character can be casting a spell level ahead of batman.....

The Artifacer does it faster, cheaper and better but is likewise even more work to play.

Not entirely, they still have the XP costs of items to worry about, and they still have a finite source of income (if the DM isn't a completely spineless git who allows whatever comes his way), that being said after level 6 artificers are completely dependant on gold if they need to be, one of the most easily acquirable resources in D&D if you know what you’re doing. Another issue is custom items, some of which can be quite powerful.

One of the things that really put the icing on the cake is the artificer’s ability to add metamagic effects to wands with his infusions can get ridiculous when you start throwing those twinned, empowered, repeated enervations, albeit it costs a lot of gold, but that’s it.

[mostlyharmful]

Not entirely, they still have the XP costs of items to worry about, and they still have a finite source of income

XP reserve, extra feats to reduce costs, XP stripping from other items.....

(if the DM isn't a completely spineless git who allows whatever comes his way)

Yes, if the DM forbids things then they go down the power chart. This is the case with everything in D&D. If the DM allows it in game an Artifacer can use it though so whatever level your DM allows (so long as they let artifacers pass) it allows artifaces more options than other casters, options pretty much equals power when you apply optimization.

that being said after level 6 artificers are completely dependant on gold if they need to be, one of the most easily acquirable resources in D&D if you know what you’re doing. Another issue is custom items, some of which can be quite powerful.

Gold isn't all that necessary with cost reducers, with an equal level of wealth to another party member an artifacer will always be far far ahead.

One of the things that really put the icing on the cake is the artificer’s ability to add metamagic effects to wands with his infusions can get ridiculous when you start throwing those twinned, empowered, repeated enervations, albeit it costs a lot of gold, but that’s it.

[Graymayre]

Basically, with the feats in the Eberron Campaign setting, an artificer can create things with a gold cost of 37% its selling price and at reduced xp and time.

From there, you find the most cheesy spells and items on Earth, jot them down and make'em.

It helps that the characterization information promotes the idea that you should play him as the frickin' Batman.

Personally, I made a real Batman out my artificer using all magic items. It worked out fantastically, and now the criminals of Sharn swear to me instead of their god.

[mikej]

Just basically cheap magical gear, the real cheese factor comes from if the DM isn't watchfull. In my opinion its not a class anyone ( especially new players ) can pick up and run with.

I'm more partial towards the blaster type, with the beautiful ability to apply metamagic feats towards wands and while crafting them cheaply.

Example: Wand of Scorching Ray

Empowered Spell
Split Ray
Twin Spell
Energy Sub/Admixture

A lot of damage but you'll burn through resources quickly unless there a constant renewal of gp etc etc

[Mobey_Wee]

I'm sorry, I've heard it mentioned before, and I think I've seen it before, but I've been awake too long to try and remember. Who/What is Pun Pun?

[mikej]

I'm sorry, I've heard it mentioned before, and I think I've seen it before, but I've been awake too long to try and remember. Who/What is Pun Pun?

Just a theoritical build using a Kobold to gain infinite power, and also widely qouted in my many jokes. All the info can be read here

[tarbrush]

It's a startlingly complex character that at 1st level has divine ranks, near-infinite stats, and any ability in the game.

[Starscream]

I'm sorry, I've heard it mentioned before, and I think I've seen it before, but I've been awake too long to try and remember. Who/What is Pun Pun?

This is.

Edit: Double ninja'd on the Pun Pun post. i need to stop being so long winded.

I think the playability of the artificer class is directly related to how much the DM is willing to regulate. If you limit his abilities to core only items (plus any he has encountered in-game and had time to study, representing his continued education), as well as put in a couple of common sense rules to prevent stuff like the +infinity cheat, he'll do okay.

If his item creation abilities are making the party too rich, simply reduce the treasure they find until they are back within WBL guidelines.

It doesn't really matter that you can basically make a Pun Pun out of the class: I've never met a DM that would allow Pun Pun, and I doubt one would allow anyone with a +infinity either.

So what if the rules technically allow it. To me it's like that Air Bud movie where they point out that the rules don't mention that a dog can't play basketball. Yeah, they also don't mention that you can't use a purple people eater, but no ref is ever going to allow it.

[Arcane_Snowman]

XP reserve, extra feats to reduce costs, XP stripping from other items.....

Stripping XP from items is 5th* level and above, remember that this will be digging into your WBL instead, so you'll be reducing it.

The feats do indeed make it a lot cheaper to make magical items hands down, but it is still in no way comparable to a wizard.

Yes, if the DM forbids things then they go down the power chart. This is the case with everything in D&D.

I'm talking about infinite sources of gold, such as the Ten Feet pole trick, what have we.

Gold isn't all that necessary with cost reducers, with an equal level of wealth to another party member an artificer will always be far far ahead.

A wand of a custom 1st level spell costs (1*1*750*.75, then *.04) = 562.5 gp and 22.5xp or 1125 gp if he's dismantling magical items, if not the artificer first has a pool big enough to make a wand of this level at 2nd level.

2nd level (2*3*750*.75) = 3375gp and 135xp, or 6770 gp

3rd level 8437.5 gp and 337.5 xp or 16875 gp.

4th level 15750, 630 xp or 31500 gp.

Yes there will be fifty charges, but with metamagic spell trigger the artificer will be chewing up quite a significant amount per casting. Keep in mind that the actual limitation of wands is 4th level; from there it's a matter of Staffs, scrolls and custom items most of which cannot be enhance with metamagic spell trigger, the infusions are only a few times per day, take a significant amount of time to cast and cost money as well.

If the DM allows it in game an Artificer can use it though so whatever level your DM allows (so long as they let artificers pass) it allows artifices more options than other casters, options pretty much equals power when you apply optimization

Artificer's power is one of those that is the most dependant on DM, the more liberal the DM is, the more power the Artificer can attain, more so than any other class.

That being said in any game that follows the WBL to chart and does not go above it, the Artificer cannot exceed the Wizard, because of the simple fact that despite the Artificer has awesome class features, the Wizard is not limited by a finite source, such as her income, but the Artificer is. The Wizard can cast the same spells day after day, without it costing her any money, whereas the Artificer’s resources will be deteriorating over time, and they do not have the same amount of versatility either.

Note: I am by no means saying that Artificers are weak; they have a well earned places as one of the big five.

*rectification from the previous post.

[HolderofSecrets]

I'm sorry, I've heard it mentioned before, and I think I've seen it before, but I've been awake too long to try and remember. Who/What is Pun Pun?

Pun Pun is an example of of what happens when optimization goes to far. Currently the build can be done with almost any race and any class due to feats and a knowledge Religion check which grants a free wish so you can start the wishing loop that gives you everything you need to pull off the boosting to nigh infinite abilities.

Using the applied method above allows you to use some monster abilities that were poorly written to boost your stats and gain class abilities till you can start converting followers and become an over deity.

This is not Pun Puns original build. He started as a level 13 Kobold psion. I had more respect for it then because it worked without wish or magic.

He then became a level 7-8 Wizard if I remember correctly. Which at that point psionics fans actually had a lot of ammo to defend psionics as not as broken as your standard wizard. I miss those days.

They then used some PrC to do the build at level 5. Which was the build that lasted till they found the knowledge loop of the Omnificer. Which is the only build that out did Pun Pun as he had been progressing to lower and lower levels. Then came the level one build which ultimately proved that with enough knowledge of the rules anyone can break the game.

All of this happened do to the Optimizing skills of WotC Forum Optimizers. Even by them he is considered a theoretical build and should never be played by anyone not wanting the DMG thrown at them.

A few traits still remain constant with Pun Pun when he is described by fans of the build. He is an Kobold with Nigh infinite divine ranks with a Horde of Divine rank 1 one awakened squirrels as his followers.

Great after going over all that I just came up with the idea that Squirrel Girl may be a Cleric of Pun Pun. I mean that would explain so much. Sorry for the comic book reference at the end here.

[Chronos]

I think the playability of the artificer class is directly related to how much the DM is willing to regulate. If you limit his abilities to core only items (plus any he has encountered in-game and had time to study, representing his continued education), as well as put in a couple of common sense rules to prevent stuff like the +infinity cheat, he'll do okay.

Even with that, scrolls are a core item. So the Artificer starts off with access to every spell from the core wizard, cleric, and druid spell lists, plus any splatbook spells the DM allows, and earlier than the actual clerics, wizards, and druids get them. Anyone who can do everything a wizard can do is already overpowered, no matter what the allowed sources. Anyone who can do everything a wizard can do, plus most of what a cleric or druid can do, is just over the top.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

First off, if a DM limit's Artificer to WBL, he's being a ****. Their primary class feature is breaking WBL, limiting it is essentially not letting a Sorc find spell components. If he doesn't, though, every party member gets 2.87x WBL if the Artificer builds properly.

Look at each spell list. Any broken spells off those lists, the Artificer can cast. With Metamagic. From their lowest level class, like Ranger or Trapsmith.

Or even worse, he can use Staves. With UMD. Look at his potential Ability score at level 12.

[mostlyharmful]

Anyone who can do everything a wizard can do is already overpowered, no matter what the allowed sources. Anyone who can do everything a wizard can do, plus most of what a cleric or druid can do

before they can do it themselves

is just over the top.

The Archivist gets it's place because it can do everything other casters can do, the Artifacer does the same but faster and with a whole host of other goodies.

[Myou]

What sourcebook is the artificier actually from? I did a search but I couldn't find a source. ^^;

[Kylarra]

What sourcebook is the artificier actually from? I did a search but I couldn't find a source. ^^;

Eberron campaign setting

[Arcane_Snowman]

First off, if a DM limit's Artificer to WBL, he's being a ****.

I said limit them to WBL, not limit the WBL.

Their primary class feature is breaking WBL, limiting it is essentially not letting a Sorc find spell components. If he doesn't, though, every party member gets 2.87x WBL if the Artificer builds properly.

Look at each spell list. Any broken spells off those lists, the Artificer can cast. With Metamagic. From their lowest level class, like Ranger or Trapsmith.

Or even worse, he can use Staves. With UMD. Look at his potential Ability score at level 12.

These are three pretty good reasons as to why, wouldn't you think

[Draz74]

Eberron Campaign Setting. (ninja'd!)

I've heard a pretty effective low-level trick for breaking the game with an Artificer is just using Infusions to make the whole party's weapons get the Bane (whatever you're fighting) enhancement.

[monty]

Eberron Campaign Setting. (ninja'd!)

I've heard a pretty effective low-level trick for breaking the game with an Artificer is just using Infusions to make the whole party's weapons get the Bane (whatever you're fighting) enhancement.

That costs gold, though. But if you're just doing it to your weapon, it's free.

[Myou]

Eberron campaign setting

Thanks. ^^



As I understand it, the artificer can't replicate spells above 6th level, since infusions don't get any stronger than that, so does that mean than he relies entirely on metamagic feats to out do real casters?

Also, why did several people say that he gets spells before the classes that actually cast them do? I'm guesing I missed some trick there.

[monty]

As I understand it, the artificer can't replicate spells above 6th level, since infusions don't get any stronger than that, so does that mean than he relies entirely on metamagic feats to out do real casters?

Also, why did several people say that he gets spells before the classes that actually cast them do? I'm guesing I missed some trick there.

He can still put any spell into a magic item with a UMD check, though.

And he gets an ability that gives him +2 effective caster level for determining his maximum spell level, although it doesn't increase his actual CL. For example, at level 3, he could make a scroll of Fireball (which a normal character couldn't do until level 5), but it would only do 3d6 damage.

[Eldariel]

The Artificer can craft items as if he were two levels higher than he is. Therefore, he can craft scrolls of spells a level higher than a caster of his level could cast.

I wouldn't say Artificer is "cheese" per ce, but it's definitely a Tier 1 class and matches well with the power level of the Wizard, the Cleric, the Druid, the Archivist and the Erudite (with the obvious PrCs/ACFs). So on that level of play, Artificers are merely a welcome addition to every party, but on lower levels of play, Artificers can utterly break things just like Wizards, Druids, Clerics, Archivists & Erudites.

[Myou]

He can still put any spell into a magic item with a UMD check, though.

And he gets an ability that gives him +2 effective caster level for determining his maximum spell level, although it doesn't increase his actual CL. For example, at level 3, he could make a scroll of Fireball (which a normal character couldn't do until level 5), but it would only do 3d6 damage.

The Artificer can craft items as if he were two levels higher than he is. Therefore, he can craft scrolls of spells a level higher than a caster of his level could cast.

I wouldn't say Artificer is "cheese" per ce, but it's definitely a Tier 1 class and matches well with the power level of the Wizard, the Cleric, the Druid, the Archivist and the Erudite (with the obvious PrCs/ACFs). So on that level of play, Artificers are merely a welcome addition to every party, but on lower levels of play, Artificers can utterly break things just like Wizards, Druids, Clerics, Archivists & Erudites.

Ahhh, I see!

What's the actual downside to the artificier if he can emulate the casting of any class before the class can itself? Is the XP cost meant to be the only drawback?


Sidenote: Is the Big 6 Erudite the Dragon Magazine or WotC version?

[Arcane_Snowman]

What's the actual downside to the artificier if he can emulate the casting of any class before the class can itself? Is the XP cost meant to be the only drawback?

they're limited by gold no matter what.
But even that at the hand of a skilled player or loose DM is no hindrance.

[Eldariel]

Sidenote: Is the Big 6 Erudite the Dragon Magazine or WotC version?

The WoTC version, but with Convert Spell to Power ACF. That's why I specified the "or ACFs" in the qualifications to be nuts; standard Erudite is actually rather weak. Spells to Powers ACF gives you access to the most broken thing in 3.5 - Arcane magic, and in turn facilitates a bunch of infinite action/PP/turn/whatever novas and overall nuttiness, and insane power even without abusing the most idiotic oversights.

[Myou]

The WoTC version, but with Convert Spell to Power ACF. That's why I specified the "or ACFs" in the qualifications to be nuts; standard Erudite is actually rather weak. Spells to Powers ACF gives you access to the most broken thing in 3.5 - Arcane magic, and in turn facilitates a bunch of infinite action/PP/turn/whatever novas and overall nuttiness, and insane power even without abusing the most idiotic oversights.

Heh heh, good old arcane magic, breaking classes since the year 2000.

they're limited by gold no matter what.
But even that at the hand of a skilled player or loose DM is no hindrance.

These impudent artisans are rapidly earning my ire. I must houserule against them at once!

To the (new)Threadmobile!


I'm silly. ^_^