Looking for a Cyberpunk system

[Grey Paladin]

Preference given to realistic/and or gritty systems.

Thanks in advance.

[ninja_penguin]

While not having played it, check out GURPS, I hear that might be along your lines. I've heard that Shadowrun can be gritty, but I'm not sure where it falls on your realistic scale of things. I'm a fan of Ex Machina, a Tri-stat book, but it generally needs some minor house tweaking to make things run smoothly.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Shadowrun - 2nd or 3rd Edition. 4th is a little too "modern" for me

This is the system with a separate rules set for adjusting the choke on your shotgun - it is about as gritty as you can get. It's easy to die, and even if you're not dead, you might lose an eye or develop a limp.

If you don't care for the magic, you can easily ignore it too.

[Grey Paladin]

I considered SR, but lack a bucket of dice.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I considered SR, but lack a bucket of dice.

Pound-o-D6 for $15.50.

In all seriousness, you can just buy a set of 12 plastic d6 ($3.50) for the table.

[BobVosh]

There is always cyberpunk. 2020

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk_2020

[BizzaroStormy]

There is always cyberpunk. 2020

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk_2020

for added realism, use the "Listen Up You Primative Screwheads" combat rules.

[Comet]

Shadowrun and/or Cyberpunk are the definitive cyberpunk games around.
A word to the wise: if you go with Cyberpunk, get 2020. Do NOT buy Cyberpunk v3. It is horrible by all accounts.

[Tetsubo 57]

You can't go wrong with the original Cyberpunk 2020 in my opinion. The Cybergeneration game is also cool.

[Satyr]

Gurps High Tech / Ultra Tech / Biotech is a good way to begin the game, but Gurps certainly start with a more serious, scientific approach, and not with the more style over substance appearance, of Shadowrun, for example.

That is great system for a more scientific approach, if you prefer that. If you want a Cyberpunk setting where the technology and bionics is only a background element for car chases and firefights, you probably want to look for another system. Besides, Cthulluhpunk is a neat combination of Lovecraftian Mythos and Cyberpunk.


All Flesh Must Be Eaten has a rather new and well-made sourcebook for Science Fiction and Cyberpunk settings, and it works quite well, but it is less detailed and more superficial. It works quite well (I play Unisystem like AFMBE regularly, but I have to admit I haven't played a Cyberpunk setting with it).
Besides, the basic rules (even though not for All Flesh Must Be Eaten) can be downloaded for free, so you can check if you like the way the system work and characters are created.

[Xuincherguixe]

I've found it's easy to get a hold of D6s. I got 12 for a $1.50. So two or three of those and you're probably set.

4th edition Shadowrun seems to involve smaller numbers of dice though.

Shadowrun's edition wars can get vicious too.


I will say this though, 4th edition no longer really feels like it's got a 1980sish feel to it. In a sense, one could say, "The metal is shinier". It's gotten more like ghost in the shell, and less like Blade Runner. It's not impossible to adjust the flavor though, of course. One of the nice things about Shadowrun is that they've always respected the fans enough to explicitly state the can change rules they don't like. And presumably setting. I for one, like to operate under the assumption of Dunklezhan faked his own death. (That'll only mean anything to Shadowrun players)

I vote go for 4th, since the rules are simpler, and take out parts you don't like if there are any.


If you decide to go with it. I don't know much about the other systems myself.

[Crow]

Shadowrun 4e is junk...In my opinion. As others have said, it's more Ghost in the Shell than cyberpunk. Shadowrun 3e still maintains some of the cyberpunk feel, but you can see it moving away from that with the later supplements. If you want a gritty, "realistic" cyberpunk game, I would veer away from Shadowrun, as much as I do love it. Shadowrun is more what you would call "Fantasy Punk".

Cyberpunk 2020 is quality though if you don't want dragons and elves. It's a good game.

[Raum]

I've run or played both Shadowrun 2nd and Cyberpunk 2020. Both are good games with differing strengths and weaknesses. SR2 is far grittier than D&D. Even so, C2020 is grittier - usually. C2020 had some issues with armor potentially making you unkillable by man portable weapons. I remember killing more with throws (fairly detailed martial arts rules if I remember correctly) than with guns in some cases. SR2 has the same issue to a lesser degree, but is mitigated by following the armor layering rules.

There are many other choices available though, what are you looking for in the game?

[Tsotha-lanti]

for added realism, use the "Listen Up You Primative Screwheads" combat rules.

In fact, the game is totally unplayable without them. In the regular rules (esp. if you add any Chromebooks), Skinweave and any armor make you impervious to all bullets up to 5.56mmN or so, which ruins the game completely. If such excellent protection is so cheap and unnoticeable, why would any PC not have it?

LUYPS fixes everything and is wonderful.

Also, like Conjob says, 203X is the plague and will melt your face off. It is indescribably bad and completely unplayable. It's like the designer skimmed through Diamond Age and decided he wanted a bit of that in Cyberpunk 2020, and decided to utilize his creepy hobby of photographing Barbies (seriously, the interior art is pictures of action figures and dolls in home-made costumes). None of the rules problems of 2020 ("How do I throw a grenade!?") were fixed, and not nearly enough of the Bubblegum Crisis rules were adapted into it.

Speaking of which, Bubblegum Crisis is both a great system, a great setting, and a great cyberpunk anime. It's probably out of print and unavailable, though.

Shadowrun 4e is junk...In my opinion. As others have said, it's more Ghost in the Shell than cyberpunk.

This is a nonsensical statement, considering that GitS:SAC is one of the best cyberpunk works ever. The movies are incomprehensible semi-plotless crap, but the series is stellar. SR 4E does a great job of actually dragging their brand of cyberpunk out of the ridiculous 80s and into a modern future.

[Xuincherguixe]

SR 4E does a great job of actually dragging their brand of cyberpunk out of the ridiculous 80s and into a modern future.

See, that statement bothers me almost as much as calling 4th junk. If someone is looking for a Blade Runner/William Gibson thing, that's just as legitimate as a Ghost in the Shell style game.

Some of the classic cyberpunk has a lot of style. To the degree little else has. Sure the 80s were ridiculous, but that's part of the charm. That being said, it's not like it's impossible to remove certain elements. Frankly, it's much more about presentation than mechanics to begin with anyways.

The fantastical elements are another story, mind you.

They aren't presented in a necessarily dark way, but it's not like it can't be.

[Tsotha-lanti]

See, that statement bothers me almost as much as calling 4th junk. If someone is looking for a Blade Runner/William Gibson thing, that's just as legitimate as a Ghost in the Shell style game.

Some of the classic cyberpunk has a lot of style. To the degree little else has. Sure the 80s were ridiculous, but that's part of the charm.

Read Neuromancer, then read All Tomorrow's Parties - even Gibson got over the 80s cyberpunk he invented. Then read Diamond Age and see the possibilities... And that's just "90s cyberpunk."

And anyway, for the 80s sillypunk, SR can't beat CP2020. (Although you obviously have to gut the system by replacing the combat and forgetting the unusable and nonsensical netrunning. On that note, SR4 is the only cyberpunk RPG I've seen with actual functional netrunning rules - easily the biggest plus for it.)

Intentionally lagging behind in a genre defined by looking forward into the possibilities implied by the current day is a little quirky, but I can certainly appreciate it as a CP2020 fan.

[Xuincherguixe]

Yeah, honestly I'm more likely to just amp up the cynicism and futility than drop technology. I get the feeling that there is an assumption that the team would play a group of loveable anti heroes and stick it to the man. But, it's not like, "Leave a fingerprint somewhere and the CIA blasts you with an orbital laser and send the power bill to your family" isn't possible to do. (It'd be a Mage that blows your head off, and takes kidneys of your family as payment of course, but that goes without saying*)

But, I try to respect other peoples ideas on games. If one wants to tell off the man, using the power of black leather and sunglasses inside buildings to open the minds of the corporate drones, I'll respect that.**

Odd really that netrunning or the equivalent is lacking in other systems though. That one seems pretty obvious.


*People that aren't familiar with the setting probably don't realize how plausible this actually is.
**No, not really. That'd be pretty stupid.

[Tsotha-lanti]

It is very odd that netrunning systems tend to suck, yes. It should be pretty central.

In Cyberpunk 2020, the system is slow and nonsensical. The Matrix is divided into squares and more, smaller squares. "Data fortresses" (servers/LANs, sort of) are physical, take up a certain amount of squares, and have walls. You get inside, and you'll be walking around the squares looking for icons placed in certain squares. There's never any attempt to explain what these squares are supposed to be. Using the system takes freaking forever, and the other players can basically just go for pizza for an hour or two.

In Cyberpunk 2013, the system seems to have been more sensical, with the Matrix divided more sensibly into abstract nodes etc., but it was still more than a little odd.

In Cyberpunk 203X, they just gave up. ICE just exist in the real world, where they compose bodies out of nanite dust - they're basically just fantasy RPG guardian demons that appear out of nowhere when you enter a room. Then you shoot them with guns until they die, and are free to use the computer in the room. (If there is one.) There's no Matrix, Internet, or even WANs, apparently - just local enclave LANs that are basically just forums with Wikipedia.

In GURPS Cyberpunk, the 'net is a little more sensible, but again, it takes forever to use it.

In Deus Ex Machina, the 'net is way too simple to really be fun, and works the same as the real world.

In d20 Cyberscape, the 'net is probably the worst possible: it just works like a D&D dungeon crawl. You walk around the net (dungeon) hitting ICE (monsters) with your programs (sword). It made me cry.

Bubblegum Crisis has no netrunning, probably because the anime ran from '87 to '91 (pretty impressive for a show consisting only of 8 ~30 minute OVAs!) and featured no netrunning or Internet or Matrix. But it's more of a cyberpunk superhero game anyway - you're supposed to kick the asses of shapechanging giant robots while wearing a battlesuit. (It's way better than it sounds, trust me.)

In older Shadowrun editions (well, 2nd is the one I had), things seemed pretty Cyberpunk 2020ish, although I never really did figure the Matrix rules out fully back then. But in SR4, it's plain great. Because everything's wireless (and I mean everything; although if you're stupid enough not to turn off your gun's wireless and use cords instead, it's your own fault when it gets hacked), netrunners are actually incredibly useful in all stages of a run, and their players can have fun actually joining the action physically. (Or stay true to style and just stay home/in an armored van and support the party.) The rules just generally work better: hacking, decrypting, sniffing, etc. - the potential for creativity is ridiculous and wonderful. Moreover, every PC is online all the time, and can make great use of that fact. (Although splitting your skills that way is a pain.)

[Winterwind]

Regarding ShadowRun 3e (which is the only cyberpunk-system I'm familiar with, incidentally, but which I found quite satisfying) and its netrunning rules, I find a very simple and immediate fix for the Matrix rules can be found if one simply kicks out the clause that says time passes at a different rate in the Matrix. Instantly deckers are capable of supervising and aiding the team's progress from the Matrix, or at least it becomes possible to switch between the decker and the rest of the team frequently without breaking the time flow.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Regarding ShadowRun 3e (which is the only cyberpunk-system I'm familiar with, incidentally, but which I found quite satisfying) and its netrunning rules, I find a very simple and immediate fix for the Matrix rules can be found if one simply kicks out the clause that says time passes at a different rate in the Matrix. Instantly deckers are capable of supervising and aiding the team's progress from the Matrix, or at least it becomes possible to switch between the decker and the rest of the team frequently without breaking the time flow.

This sounds like a good fix. In SR4, it's already in place; netrunners just have more initiative passes (the same as a reflex-boosted samurai or projecting magician will have).

The whole "the rest of the group can go off to eat for hours" syndrome is a bit separate from this, though. The above fixes the whole "hacking during a run takes for ever." The other, big, problem is "hacking outside of a run makes more sense and no one else has anything to do." I don't know how ICE and hacking into systems works in SR3, but the usual problem in systems is that it takes time, and dealing with ICE is basically combat (and a mage-duel at that, to make a D&D comparison).

Netrunning needs to be streamlined to a minimal number of steps/rolls that still allow for depth and cleverness. It's not easy, but sometimes it works out.

[Winterwind]

The whole "the rest of the group can go off to eat for hours" syndrome is a bit separate from this, though. The above fixes the whole "hacking during a run takes for ever." The other, big, problem is "hacking outside of a run makes more sense and no one else has anything to do." I don't know how ICE and hacking into systems works in SR3, but the usual problem in systems is that it takes time, and dealing with ICE is basically combat (and a mage-duel at that, to make a D&D comparison).

That's pretty much how it works in SR3 too. The way I would solve it, well... if the decker hacks before the run, the other characters might be looking for information in the real world, be bargaining with mob bosses, fighting off assailants or engaging in some sub-arc involving their private life - in summary, they would get just as much to do as the decker.