Pricing In Tome of Battle

[Olo Demonsbane]

Is there a method for pricing items that give at will Tome of Battle Powers?

If so, What is it?

If not, What would you recommend?

[sonofzeal]

Price it as if they were spells. So that's 2000 * Maneuver Level ^2. Should be reasonable.

[RTGoodman]

That sounds pretty reasonable, but I'd check the items that already exist in ToB. They already give you access to the maneuvers of a certain discipline once per encounter, I believe, so you might could use those to eyeball a price, too.

[Waspinator]

Look at pages 149-150 of the Tome of Battle. Those items should give you an idea of what to do.

[Olo Demonsbane]

I know about the White Raven Crowns and that kind of stuff, but I was looking for it at will...would Zeal's idea be well priced? Thats what I thought at first.

[Douglas]

That strikes me as broken. No martial adept class ever gets any maneuver truly at will (not counting stances), and I don't think any non-artifact magic item should by itself allow better access to maneuvers than the classes themselves do. If you just mean usable as often as the character's existing recharge mechanic allows, then a Crown of the White Raven and similar items already do that.

[Olo Demonsbane]

By that logic, there should be no at-will/continous magic items either.

[Douglas]

For magic items that specifically duplicate spells, pretty much yes. Spells whose sole effect is to give a numeric bonus and the magic item is priced by the bonus rather than the spell are the exception. Now look through every magic item ever published in a book by WotC for 3.5, and you will find very very few items that give at will or continuous spell duplication that isn't a numeric bonus and priced by the magnitude of the bonus. I know of the Ring of Telekinesis, Amulet of the Planes, Wings of Flying, and Third Eye: Sense, and I'm pretty confident that is almost the entirety of the list.

Edit: What do you want this for, anyway, and why?

Edit2: Ok, so there are a few more. Rings of Blinking, Friend Shield, Invisibility, Mind Shielding, Feather Fall, Water Walking, Meld Into Stone, Elemental Command, Animal Friendship, Chameleon Power, along with the Hat of Disguise, Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Location, Boots of Levitation, and I'm going to stop now. However, the vast majority of these are strictly defensive or utility in nature, not attack spells.

[rampaging-poet]

*a bunch of magic items*

Don't forget the Hand of the Mage. Mage hand at will? Sign me up!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yea, but an item of Iron Heart Surge at-will is possibly even more broken than the infamous Weapon of True Strike (always on)...

Maneuvers should not be at-will. Perhaps x times/encounter, but not at-will.

[Fixer]

Yea, but an item of Iron Heart Surge at-will is possibly even more broken than the infamous Weapon of True Strike (always on)...

Maneuvers should not be at-will. Perhaps x times/encounter, but not at-will.

See, if a maneuver grants an ability that can be measured in metrics (+ to hit/damage) it should be priced according to the bonus IF it were at-will/continuous. If it is relative to the character's level, it should be priced more like a spell. The True-Strike-Always-On ability should be priced as the bonus (because it is a fixed bonus) with the addition of the avoiding concealment ability. That puts it into Epic cost territory.

The problem, as you say, is the infamous Iron Heart Surge ability. It doesn't possess a metric and, for its level, is horribly cheap. This one, in particular, requires DM adjudication and limitation.

[sonofzeal]

See, if a maneuver grants an ability that can be measured in metrics (+ to hit/damage) it should be priced according to the bonus IF it were at-will/continuous. If it is relative to the character's level, it should be priced more like a spell. The True-Strike-Always-On ability should be priced as the bonus (because it is a fixed bonus) with the addition of the avoiding concealment ability. That puts it into Epic cost territory.

The problem, as you say, is the infamous Iron Heart Surge ability. It doesn't possess a metric and, for its level, is horribly cheap. This one, in particular, requires DM adjudication and limitation.

I'd compare "Iron Heart Surge" items to "Wraithstrike" items, as neither provides a numeric bonus. There's plenty of spells that get utterly broken when made continuous/at-will. That's just part of the game, and a good DM will have to watch for that. Same thing goes for ToB.

I wouldn't allow continuous ToB items though. Almost all the boosts are single-round effects, and those are the ones that become the most broken continuous. Compare to the spells Wraithstrike and Permeable Form. Contrast with spells that have hour/level durations already.

I don't think maneuvers at-will is all that exploitable. The pricing curve is such that any maneuver a character would have that way would be significantly lower than what a martial adept could be using already. Of course there's some to watch out for (say, Mountain Hammer or White Raven Tactics), but a sensible DM can handle those on a case-by-case basis.

[Fixer]

I am suddenly imagining the utility of a bunch of 6th level dwarven warblades with Stone Power, Shards of Granite, and wielding heavy maces bashing their way through rock like it was glass to get to mineral veins. That would be very cost-efficient, actually (except the getting to 6th level part).

[Draz74]

Iron Heart Surge isn't really overpowered at all if you make some minimal assumptions about RAI. My Warblade character rarely even bothers readying it.

I'd be more worried about at-will White Raven Tactics (even if using it on yourself is banned, as per Sage Advice).

Still, either of these is a poor metric to use to determine pricing, much like using Wraithstrike to determine spell-at-will pricing.