Demons and negative energy.

[krossbow]

This is just a bit of musing. Now, i realize the reason why this works in the D&D universe, but just kicking the idea around a bit.



Undead are fueled by negative energy. This is one of the most basic tenets of their design, and is a very commonly understood one.

However, then when one starts to think about demons, it just kind of always hit a kink there for me. Demons, despite being forces of darkness and evil, still require positive energy for healing spells, and negative energy spells will harm them. They don't possess "unlife" like an undead, and presumably work the 'right' way, but still. It seems somewhat off that the epitome of evil in the universe still requires benefits from healing energy.




I may just be nitpicking; but it just always bothered me that incarnations of evil aren't harmed by energy generally regarded as "good" in nature, and harmed by energy regarded as evil in nature.

Anyone feel similiarly on the subject?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Positive Energy is not Good, Negative Energy is not Evil. All living things are animated by Positive Energy, Undead are animated by Negative Energy. Demons count as living, therefore they are animated by Positive Energy. Alignment never enters into it.

[Xuincherguixe]

Positive Energy is not Good, Negative Energy is not Evil.

... Except when it is. The rules are a little inconsistent.

[krossbow]

Positive Energy is not Good, Negative Energy is not Evil. All living things are animated by Positive Energy, Undead are animated by Negative Energy. Demons count as living, therefore they are animated by Positive Energy. Alignment never enters into it.

When good Clerics stop channeling Cure spells and Evil clerics stop Channeling Inflict wounds spells, then i'll consent to that. As is, Which type of energy you channel is very clearly tied to alignment for many.

[SurlySeraph]

When good Clerics stop channeling Cure spells and Evil clerics stop Channeling Inflict wounds spells, then i'll consent to that. As is, Which type of energy you channel is very clearly tied to alignment for many.

The way I see it, destructive (negative) energy is more often useful to evil beings, and creative (positive) energy is more often useful to good creatures. Neither is inherently good or evil, it's just a matter of which a given cleric will want to have available more often.

[Innis Cabal]

... Except when it is. The rules are a little inconsistent.

Except that when they are either good or evil its through a spell not the nature of the "element" itself.

[Collin152]

Well, Consecrate and Desecrate describe their effects as imbuing an area with, respectively, positive and negative energy. Good and evil effects differing only in which energy they tap.

[krossbow]

It is open to interpretation of why a cleric channels his energy, and i will admit it is a valid point. A good cleric will most likely find positive energy to be more useful, and an evil one negative. That being said, with that interpretation, i think it would be good to change the cleric class to just require one to choose upon creating their character which type they'd rather channel. I for one, when i play lawful evil clerics, believe its better to heal your allies to go kill more foes than to get giggles out of melting a face, and would gladly have chosen to channel positive energy if it is a matter of usefulness.



With that interpretation, there'd be no issue with demons being healed by positive energy. Its just with the interpretation implied by other wording that exists that i had issues.

[newbDM]

From what I understand, negative energy represents decay and atrophy. Positive energy represents creation and life.

It supposed to be a universal balance. Without positive energy there would literally be nothing. Without negative energy there would be way too much, and no more room for positive energy. Together they create change and progress.

The problem I see is that too many people instinctive relate evil with things such as destruction, death, and decay, while instinctively relating good with things such as creation, life, and order. This is one of the reasons I love the pre-4.0 four-part alignment axes. An evil lawful government/nation is just as interested in increasing it's people(s) population, creating cities and incredible monuments, keeping order, and similar things as a good lawful government/nation would be. The same could probably be said about chaotic evil communities vs. chaotic good ones, minus the construction and order parts. The key difference is that the evil ones are not as concerned about their neighbors' welfare.

It is just that a good 99.9% of the people on this forum were raised in communities/cultures/nations where we were taught to associate certain traits (exp.decay vs. growth, life vs. death, order vs. chaos, etc) with either good or evil.

I would go a step further and guesstimate that the vast majority of us come from communities/cultures/nations where we are also raised to associate said traits (decay vs. growth, life vs. death, order vs. chaos, etc) with either chaos or law. Can you guess which are associated with which?

[Hat-Trick]

Ain't this an eye opener. I've been an advocate for benign Necromancy for a while and this actually gives some of my necromancers a new argument for the next paladin that attacks him in the library. Death isn't evil, if anything it's lawful. It does it's job, doesn't discriminate, and follows the laws of the universe. It's those chaotic bastards who mess with the system by resurrection that need a good thumping.

[monty]

Look at the descriptions of the positive and negative energy planes. Notice that they have no alignment descriptors.

[Collin152]

I am suddenly reminded of my idea of a line of spells and such that mixes Negative Energy with a little Shadowstuff. The idea being that neither are inherantly evil, but negative energy is hard to find completley good (Or, say, Exalted, :p) uses for and the plane of Shadow tends to be reeeally unnerving and creepy, but ultimatley neutral, thus creating edgy not-quite-evil spells.
I'll get back to you on that.

But to the original topic, I think some fiends should be composed of Negative energy, as it does, in fact, just make sense.

[lsfreak]

Look at the descriptions of the positive and negative energy planes. Notice that they have no alignment descriptors.

Of course, then look at the fluff in BoVD (and to a lesser extent, Libris Mortis). Animating undead in its very nature is evil, because it brings negative energy into the world.

[krossbow]

Ain't this an eye opener. I've been an advocate for benign Necromancy for a while and this actually gives some of my necromancers a new argument for the next paladin that attacks him in the library. Death isn't evil, if anything it's lawful. It does it's job, doesn't discriminate, and follows the laws of the universe. It's those chaotic bastards who mess with the system by resurrection that need a good thumping.

The undead argument goes hand in hand somewhat with lichdom. Becoming a lich is stated to be an undeniably evil process, yet there exist in the forgotten realms some good liches.
Truth be told, lots of D&D fluff is contradictory on the subject.

[Hat-Trick]

They need to clear up the "Liching Process." I've always thought it needed life sacrifices within the hundreds range lashed to death and then the imbibing of their blood, sweat, and tears, or something. Then they say "Oh and you can be good to," and now I have to visualize some sort of good version of all that. I like that it isn't evil anymore, but how do you become a lich? Good or Evil? The confusion, it ensues.

[Collin152]

They need to clear up the "Liching Process." I've always thought it needed life sacrifices within the hundreds range lashed to death and then the imbibing of their blood, sweat, and tears, or something. Then they say "Oh and you can be good to," and now I have to visualize some sort of good version of all that. I like that it isn't evil anymore, but how do you become a lich? Good or Evil? The confusion, it ensues.

Oh, it's just a matter of submitting some paperwork. It's just that the only feasible way to get it done in any kind of timely manner involves the senseless slaughter of the millions of people in line ahead of you. Until now.

[Agrippa]

The lich is not a thing of this world. Although it was once a living creature, it has entered into an unnatural existence. In order to become a lich, the wizard must prepare its phylactery by the use of the enchant an item, magic jar, permanency and reincarnation spells. The phylactery, which can be almost any manner of object, must be of the finest craftsmanship and materials with a value of not less than 1,500 gold pieces per level of the wizard.
Once this object is created, the would-be lich must craft a potion of extreme toxicity, which is then enchanted with the following spells: wraithform, permanency, cone of cold, feign death, and animate dead. When next the moon is full, the potion is imbibed. Rather than death, the potion causes the wizard to undergo a transformation into its new state.

2nd edition ingredients for the lichdom potion:

2 pinches of pure arsenic
1 pinch of belladona
1 measure of fresh phase spider venom (less than 30 days old)
1 measure of fresh wyvern venom (less than 60 days old )
The blood of a humanoid killed by a phase spider
The blood of a humanoid killed by a mixture of arsenic and
belladona,
The heart of a humanoid killed by wyvern venom
1 quart of blood from a vampire or a human infected with
vampirism.

All this items must be mixed and drunk by the light of a full moon, when he drinks it, roll a percentile die:

01-10. No effect, start over.
11-40. Fall into coma for 2-7 days. The potion works.
41-70. Feebleminded until dispelled. The potion works.
71-90. Paralyzed for 4-14 days. 30% of 1-6 DEX pts lost
the potion works.
91-96. Permanently deaf, dumb or blind, only wish can regain
senses. The potion works.
97-00. Dead. Start over if you can be resurrected.

This is pretty much what it took to become a lich in 2nd edition. Wish Wizards of the Coast was this explicit on lichdom in 3rd edition?

[TheOOB]

Fiends really don't have any connection to negative energy. It is just as deadly to them as it is to humans(barring the odd resistance), and positive energy heals them.

While true positive energy is easier to use to good ends, and negative energy is easier to use to evil ends, there is nothing good or evil about the energy itself. They are life and death, creation and destruction, they are no more good or evil then any of the other primal elemental forces in D&D(fire, water, earth, and air).

Note that both the plane of positive and negative energy are exceedingly dangerous to mortals.

[ghost_warlock]

Fiends really don't have any connection to negative energy. It is just as deadly to them as it is to humans(barring the odd resistance), and positive energy heals them.

While true positive energy is easier to use to good ends, and negative energy is easier to use to evil ends, there is nothing good or evil about the energy itself. They are life and death, creation and destruction, they are no more good or evil then any of the other primal elemental forces in D&D(fire, water, earth, and air).

Note that both the plane of positive and negative energy are exceedingly dangerous to mortals.

Welcome to the positive energy plane! You now have cancer! =D

Welcome to the negative energy plane! You now have lupus! =D

[Hat-Trick]

Positive plane is more heart explodes from sheer power being forced into it, which also goes with the you blow up part of being there.

[Icewalker]

It's all relative stuff. The elements themselves aren't inherently either. In my campaign world, there are two major gods, one of whom is the god of Life, Time, Fire, and is borderline evil, worshiped by the corrupt oppressive nation. The other god is the god of Magic, the Ocean, and Death, and is more leaning towards good. Mostly this is just to break convention, because that almost always makes for more interesting set ups.

Anyways. Neither are inherently aligned, as many have said. I've heard an interesting idea for a necromancer who is entirely good, raising only bodies that are stone-to-fleshed statues, and not the actual dead.

[Baalthazaq]

I wish people would stop repeating the rules to the original poster.

He knows what negative energy does. Repeating to him that demons get healed is pointless when he opens his post with

Demons, despite being forces of darkness and evil, still require positive energy for healing spells, and negative energy spells will harm them.

"Demons get healed by positive energy". He knows. He even goes so far as to explain he understands why that would be.

Having said all that, it makes more sense for demons to be healed by negative energy than undead. If you want to call negative energy "just destructive, but not inherently evil" then it should just blast away more of the thing.

It is made of exactly the same stuff as it was while living, yet it's doing the opposite thing to harming it now? If I raise someone somehow as an intelligent undead, how am I doing anything different from a resurrection?

This is not cut and dry at all.

[krossbow]

While a horrifically painful way to deal with the situation, a mortal can easily circumvent problems arising from the positive energy plane by just knifing themselves in the spleen every few seconds.

[Tam_OConnor]

Well, you can always do what I do. For certain fiends (especially nabassus and other things with negative energy or [death] effects), give them the [Necrotic] subtype.

Benefits: Healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy. Immune to physical ability damage and drain.

Just a simple way to switch them over.

[Noble Savant]

It is made of exactly the same stuff as it was while living, yet it's doing the opposite thing to harming it now? If I raise someone somehow as an intelligent undead, how am I doing anything different from a resurrection?

This is not cut and dry at all.

Negative Energy is what gives the undead their twisted equivalent of life. That's the reason why it heals them. Not because it's evil and they are evil. They may be evil themselves, but the energy is simply another force.

A force that is the exact opposite of the positive energy which keeps most people alive. And a force that was tapped to bring them back to life.

[Ravens_cry]

The whole 'positive/negative' energy thing is based on the old, almost instinctive (as we are not born with microscopes), but in our world unscientific, idea of a vital force. That something is intrinsically different about life and non-life and un-dead. This is described as 'positive' and 'negative' energy. One is as hostile to the other as oxygen is to an anaerobic organism. I personally don't see either as evil, as a strongly positive aligned plane is quickly deadly even to 'positive' life. An example of too much of a good thing I would gather.They are merely the animating forces for different creatures. No more, no less. With all the connotations of 'positive' and 'negative', you might as well call them noughts and crosses, cheese and crackers, milk and tea.
In-game, the biggest advantage is that it allows the priestly type, usually with few strictly offensive spells, to kick absolute butt against their traditional fantasy foe, the undead, by simply doing what they do best, healing.

[krossbow]

Actually, this reminds me of a debate me and my friends got into about Vampires.


We personally were of the mind that vampires should be susceptable to critical blows and the like, and possess organs in their physical structure so as to better blend in with mortals, differing from the Undead template that is stated for them.

This brought up the question of though, WHY were vampires undead then? In such a situation, they'd have working organs, hearts, blood, all the things normally seen in living humans.

The only real reason we were able to come up with was their life force; by being fueled by Negative energy, a natural anathema to life, the being would thereby be classified as undead and an enemy of normal living beings, irrelevent of other Characteristics.






By that definition that we use for vampires and undead, it would beg the question of the true definition of Evil outsider for their definition. As the current state is, it merely requires them to be corrupt and live on a plane differing from the material one, as "devils" and "demons" are just one of the different subtypes of outsiders.

[BlueWizard]

Negative is merely the opposite of Positive.

[Baalthazaq]

Negative Energy is what gives the undead their twisted equivalent of life. That's the reason why it heals them. Not because it's evil and they are evil. They may be evil themselves, but the energy is simply another force.

A force that is the exact opposite of the positive energy which keeps most people alive. And a force that was tapped to bring them back to life.

But then healing spells shouldn't be healing. You're channeling positive energy into someone and it all becomes very metagamey. "I'm giving this person 20 hitpoints" rather than "I'm curing wounds" or "inflicting wounds".

You're healing the body with positive energy, flesh, muscle and sinew are coming back together, bones are uncracking, bruises are evening over and regaining their colour.

Now a hero does the same to a zombie, and now positive energy cannot mend the same sinew, muscle, flesh and bone. Even if this is the same person as it was last round but has been the victim of Demise Unseen or something.

I was also speaking specifically to the Negative = Destructive, Positive = Creative crowd.

[Ravens_cry]

But then healing spells shouldn't be healing. You're channeling positive energy into someone and it all becomes very metagamey. "I'm giving this person 20 hitpoints" rather than "I'm curing wounds" or "inflicting wounds".

You're healing the body with positive energy, flesh, muscle and sinew are coming back together, bones are uncracking, bruises are evening over and regaining their colour.

Elan Vital meets Different strokes for Different folks. Maybe an un-metagame way to think of it, is that the positive energy is what positive energy life runs on. By adding more, locally, you accelerate drastically the bodies own healing mechanisms. The closest real world analogue is over pressure oxygen from an oxygen tent. Still thinking in-game here, maybe why zombies and such do that whole rotting corpse thing is that negative energy is not so much Evil, as alien. The weird effects come incompatibilities.