[3.5] Isn't sorcerer worse than the SRD generic Spellcaster?

[Eeezee]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...tm#spellcaster
Assuming you go the arcane spellcaster route...

Benefits:
Bonus feats as a Wizard but without restrictions

More class skills than sorcerer (all knowledges instead of just Arcana), can choose 4 class skills (2 will end up being concentration/spellcraft)

Choose your casting stat (ie choose Int instead of Cha)

Choose your good save, it doesn't have to be Will (very minor benefit)

Edit: And you can choose any spell from the druid, cleric, and sorcerer/wizard spell lists

Neutral: (or class features that are the same)
One good save, 2 poor

d4 hit die

Same spell progression, same total spells known at every level

Disadvantages:
Spells/Day progression is just barely slower

No familiar (or no PHB II variant for rapid metamagic)

Only proficient with one simple weapon (as opposed to all), but this barely registers as a disadvantage



So it looks to me that the benefits, especially choosing your casting stat, skills, and the bonus feats, greatly outweigh the somewhat mediocre disadvantages of being a generic spellcaster. The only real disadvantage is slower spells/day progression, which hurts.

[olentu]

Well if I am remembering correctly the generic classes are not designed to be used with standard classes.

[Fizban]

Actually you're forgetting the most important thing:

Benefit: class spell list includes all cleric and druid spells in addition to sorcerer.

A spellcaster learns and casts spells as a sorcerer. She may select her spells known from the cleric, druid, and sorcerer/wizard spell lists.

Emphasis mine.

[Keld Denar]

Generic Classes aren't supposed to be used in the same arena as regular classes. That said, a sorcerer is slightly weaker than a wizard for a few reasons, the primary of which is the delayed spell access and very limited spells known. Its still only slightly behind the wizard which is WAY ahead of nearly everyone else. I'd say Sorcerers are stronger than Clerics and Druids simply because Arcane >>>>>> Divine in nearly all cases.

That said, sorcerers still have some funky tricks up their sleaves, but most of them deal with Kobalds pretending to be Dragons (Greater Draconic Rites and Loredrake shanananananananananagins). Also, there are some sorc only spells like Wings of Cover and Wings of Flurry that are absolutely amazing.

[Myrmex]

And that one Dragon Magic spell that reduces the casting time of your spells.

[Keld Denar]

Arcane Spellsurge?

Yea...Arcane Spellsurge + Residual Metamagic means you basically hemorhage spell slots, but it doesn't matter, since you'll probably have asploded the world with the amount of abusively metamagiced spells you unleashed. The only problem with that combo is THINGS DON'T LIVE LONG ENOUGH TO COMBO THIS FOR MORE THAN 1-2 ROUNDS!

/cry

[Eeezee]

Actually you're forgetting the most important thing:

Benefit: class spell list includes all cleric and druid spells in addition to sorcerer.

Emphasis mine.

Geeze, you're right, I didn't even notice that. There's even a line that specifies that the choice of arcane or divine spellcasting does not effect the spells that you can learn. Nice

[Chronos]

Of course, if you don't mind using Wis instead of Cha as your casting stat, then you can just use the exact same spell list, but in armor.

[Devils_Advocate]

Well, the Generic Spellcaster has no armor proficiency, but the penalties for nonproficiency actually aren't that bad if you avoid making attack rolls. Which you should avoid doing if you're going to have bad Dex anyway. And if you have good Dex, there's no good reason to wear armor with a high check penalty, since those also have low max Dex bonus to AC. You can always spend a feat on light armor proficiency, but even without it you can wear leather, masterwork studded leather, and eventually a mithril chain shirt without penalty. Having Wisdom as your casting stat instead of Int is arguably a bigger disadvantage, since it makes you less of a MAD knowledge-monkey.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Mostly depends on the PRCs and other game options available along with the level of the campaign.

With PRCs usually the PC will only pick up the L5 bonus feat and not the L10, L15 and L20 bonus feats which have some nice choices if playing without PRCs.

At high level 18+ you can cast Miracles as arcane spells and with Archmage can cast 2/day as spell like abilities.

Your arcane spellcaster could be a Thaumaturgist - 5 with a Genie cohort (Efretti or Noble Djinni for daily Wishes) mixing up levels in Lore Master and Archmage just limiting the PC to the SRD PRCs.

[holywhippet]

Generic Classes aren't supposed to be used in the same arena as regular classes. That said, a sorcerer is slightly weaker than a wizard for a few reasons, the primary of which is the delayed spell access and very limited spells known. Its still only slightly behind the wizard which is WAY ahead of nearly everyone else. I'd say Sorcerers are stronger than Clerics and Druids simply because Arcane >>>>>> Divine in nearly all cases.

I still have doubts about the sorcerer being weaker. Yes you have delayed spell access, but you get more spells to cast per day. Both have their own type of versatility too - the wizard can learn new spells from scrolls and thus have a larger list of possible spells to memorise. But that really only helps if you walk into a fight/situation knowing what you will be facing. If you have prepared a bunch of fire related spells but suddenly find yourself facing fire elementals - all those spells are effectively dead weight. The sorcerer can just switch spells though, or use metamagic to cast stronger spells from a lower level instead. Of course, this assumes you are playing a blaster type spellcaster. If you are looking to be batman then the wizard might be a better option.

I definetly don't know about wizards/sorcerers being better than a cleric though. Wizards can't get an obscenely high AC by wearing plate mail and using a tower shield for one thing. Not to mention some of the buffing spells the cleric and druid have access to.

[Keld Denar]

I still have doubts about the sorcerer being weaker. Yes you have delayed spell access, but you get more spells to cast per day. Both have their own type of versatility too - the wizard can learn new spells from scrolls and thus have a larger list of possible spells to memorise. But that really only helps if you walk into a fight/situation knowing what you will be facing. If you have prepared a bunch of fire related spells but suddenly find yourself facing fire elementals - all those spells are effectively dead weight. The sorcerer can just switch spells though, or use metamagic to cast stronger spells from a lower level instead. Of course, this assumes you are playing a blaster type spellcaster. If you are looking to be batman then the wizard might be a better option.

Show me a spell with the [Fire] descriptor that is worth memorizing. This Wizard doesn't have any spells with it. He doesn't need them. Everything worth killing is either vulnerable to the spells he has prepped, or can be highly inconvenienced to the point where his allies can kill it. Fire elemental or otherwise. High SR? No problem. High Saves? Covered. Nearly every possible circumstance is prepared for with multipurpose spells. Other spells can be swapped out as needed. A smart wizard (with Int as a primary stat after all) should never pigeonhole himself into being screwed by your sample Fire Elemental.

I definetly don't know about wizards/sorcerers being better than a cleric though. Wizards can't get an obscenely high AC by wearing plate mail and using a tower shield for one thing. Not to mention some of the buffing spells the cleric and druid have access to.

Wizards don't need AC. AC is a fruitless endevor past about level 4. The wizard keeps himself safe via clever positioning, magical protections such as Mirror Image and Energy Resistances, and other features to remain protected.

[Myrmex]

Wizards don't need AC. AC is a fruitless endevor past about level 4. The wizard keeps himself safe via clever positioning, magical protections such as Mirror Image and Energy Resistances, and other features to remain protected.

You know, I've found that a lot of those illusions that are supposed to help only help in fights that aren't supposed to be dangerous, anyway. If you are playing your wizard like a charop board wizard, then either your DM scales the encounters to be appropriate, or you walk over everything and rocks fall.

Pretty much all illusionary protection will be pierced by a single spell- True Seeing. There's a sweet spot between level 3 and level 7, but once you get higher, the rogues will be carrying a scroll or two of it, wizards will have it up, monsters will be using it. At least in games where the DM wasn't going to put up with shenanigans.

[holywhippet]

Show me a spell with the [Fire] descriptor that is worth memorizing. This Wizard doesn't have any spells with it. He doesn't need them. Everything worth killing is either vulnerable to the spells he has prepped, or can be highly inconvenienced to the point where his allies can kill it. Fire elemental or otherwise. High SR? No problem. High Saves? Covered. Nearly every possible circumstance is prepared for with multipurpose spells. Other spells can be swapped out as needed. A smart wizard (with Int as a primary stat after all) should never pigeonhole himself into being screwed by your sample Fire Elemental.

Fireball for one. A lot of those spells are single target only. If he runs into massed numbers - especially massed numbers with ranged weapons then he starts having trouble.

Wizards don't need AC. AC is a fruitless endevor past about level 4. The wizard keeps himself safe via clever positioning, magical protections such as Mirror Image and Energy Resistances, and other features to remain protected.

Clever positioning? If you see them, they can see you and if they have ranged weapons you need a decent AC.

Mirror image? A few alchemists fires will get rid of them pretty quickly since even a miss will damage everything in range for 1 hp which is enough to take out an image. For that matter, the aforementioned fireball spell could potentially take them all out - and damage the wizard. Sure, energy resistance will stop the wizard taking damage but the mirror images aren't protected by it.

[arguskos]

Show me a spell with the [Fire] descriptor that is worth memorizing. This Wizard doesn't have any spells with it. He doesn't need them. Everything worth killing is either vulnerable to the spells he has prepped, or can be highly inconvenienced to the point where his allies can kill it. Fire elemental or otherwise. High SR? No problem. High Saves? Covered. Nearly every possible circumstance is prepared for with multipurpose spells. Other spells can be swapped out as needed. A smart wizard (with Int as a primary stat after all) should never pigeonhole himself into being screwed by your sample Fire Elemental.

Just wanted to say that Orb of Fire and Scorching Ray can both be good. Just sayin'.

[NEO|Phyte]

Mirror image? A few alchemists fires will get rid of them pretty quickly since even a miss will damage everything in range for 1 hp which is enough to take out an image. For that matter, the aforementioned fireball spell could potentially take them all out - and damage the wizard. Sure, energy resistance will stop the wizard taking damage but the mirror images aren't protected by it.

Interestingly enough, damage doesn't pop mirror images, a successful attack does. Heck, fireball is used as the example spell when saying that figments appear to react 'normally' to area spells.

[wadledo]

Fireball for one. A lot of those spells are single target only. If he runs into massed numbers - especially massed numbers with ranged weapons then he starts having trouble.


Clever positioning? If you see them, they can see you and if they have ranged weapons you need a decent AC.

Mirror image? A few alchemists fires will get rid of them pretty quickly since even a miss will damage everything in range for 1 hp which is enough to take out an image. For that matter, the aforementioned fireball spell could potentially take them all out - and damage the wizard. Sure, energy resistance will stop the wizard taking damage but the mirror images aren't protected by it.

Wind Wall, a third level spell, solves most of those problems quite handily.

[Gorbash]

Mirror image? A few alchemists fires will get rid of them pretty quickly since even a miss will damage everything in range for 1 hp which is enough to take out an image. For that matter, the aforementioned fireball spell could potentially take them all out - and damage the wizard.

If you're facing opponents who're wasting actions casting Fireball and throwing Alchemist's Fires you don't really need protection...

[ericgrau]

The generic spellcaster has 2 and 3 high level spells per day instead of 3 or 4, with the same spells known. That's significant. Not huge, but worth the feats anyway. That whole divine thing seems kinda significant though.

Mirror image is ridiculously easy to overcome with either magical or martial counters. Martially you just full attack a ranged weapon at the images. You're almost guaranteed to hit since their AC is a measly 10 + dex. Magically you spread magic missile on multiple targets or scorching ray or any multi-target, but not area spells. People really need to read the spell descriptions of their spells once in a while. Plus once you get a hit you can choose to focus your remaining attacks against that same target, b/c the images have to move before through each other before they re-scramble. Or intentionally go for other targets to use your low AB attacks on the images.

AC scales. Anyone who says otherwise just doesn't know how to optimize cheap AC at higher levels. There are tips at www.wizards.com => resources => 3.5 archives => tactics & tips or rules. Basically you vary your sources.

And what holywhippet said about fireball. To quote someone' sig, "This is my fireball. There are many like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my fireball is useless. Without my fireball, I am useless." The only comparison I've ever seen trying to invalidate fireball compares a 5d6 (not 10d6) fireball targetting a single target (not an area) against the almighty haste (another must-have spell)... and it takes a couple rounds or so for haste to come out ahead, depending on how long it takes to get full attacks. Scorching ray isn't too shabby either, especially if you're sticking to core. It helps to have backup energy types, but that tends to be a lot easier than dealing with immunities/counters/etc with SoD's. Try your usual tactics on a dragon, read his description, then find out, "Nope, ability #37 negates that" or his saves are way too high (fort & will for a dragon) or etc. And you don't need to choose; you bring different kinds of spells for different kinds of foes.

[Starbuck_II]

Pretty much all illusionary protection will be pierced by a single spell- True Seeing. There's a sweet spot between level 3 and level 7, but once you get higher, the rogues will be carrying a scroll or two of it, wizards will have it up, monsters will be using it. At least in games where the DM wasn't going to put up with shenanigans.

At that point, you get UMD, a Cloak of Shadows (from Tome of Magic), UPD, etc to use non-arcane magic (which is immune to True seeing).

Psionic displacement (Concealing Amorpha), Dancing Shadows (on one targe it acts as 50% concealment unlike Displacement spell is untargetable), etc are immune to True Seeing.

[AmberVael]

You know, I've found that a lot of those illusions that are supposed to help only help in fights that aren't supposed to be dangerous, anyway. If you are playing your wizard like a charop board wizard, then either your DM scales the encounters to be appropriate, or you walk over everything and rocks fall.

Pretty much all illusionary protection will be pierced by a single spell- True Seeing. There's a sweet spot between level 3 and level 7, but once you get higher, the rogues will be carrying a scroll or two of it, wizards will have it up, monsters will be using it. At least in games where the DM wasn't going to put up with shenanigans.

At nearly 2000 a pop, and a UMD DC minimum of 31, your average rogue is going to have difficulty with that True Seeing scroll. Assuming Charisma of 14 and +5 in miscellaneous bonuses (skill focus, extra high charisma, a magic item- etc), you're going to want to at least have 18 ranks before attempting to use that scroll (75% chance of activation). This puts you at level 15 before you're using that scroll.
A more UMD focused rogue might scrounge up a few more bonuses (say another +5) but by then you're spending even more money/resources on this endeavor, and you're still level 10 before you can risk using that scroll.

What is more, there are plenty of monsters without access to true seeing, and plenty of characters without access to true seeing (fighters, rangers, etc.) Yes, Illusions can be bypassed, but an antagonist is going to be putting significant investment in it until the highest levels (At which point a wizard will hardly have to rely on puny illusions to save them.)

Fireball for one. A lot of those spells are single target only. If he runs into massed numbers - especially massed numbers with ranged weapons then he starts having trouble.

He has Freezing Fog, Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, glitterdust, and quite a number of split rays. He's got ways of dealing with multiple people at once- especially once you factor in his Rod of Chaining and Circlet of Rapid Casting.

Clever positioning? If you see them, they can see you and if they have ranged weapons you need a decent AC.

I'm skipping over this part because I'm not entirely sure what he meant by clever positioning.

Mirror image? A few alchemists fires will get rid of them pretty quickly since even a miss will damage everything in range for 1 hp which is enough to take out an image. For that matter, the aforementioned fireball spell could potentially take them all out - and damage the wizard. Sure, energy resistance will stop the wizard taking damage but the mirror images aren't protected by it.

By the time you've tossed a number of alchemist's fires, you've wasted a number of turns, meaning the caster in question has had a number of chances to either attack you, pull up more protection, or flee.

A fireball, however, is far more efficient. That would be a proper response to mirror image. The number of monsters and people out there with area attacks, however, is reasonably low enough that mirror image makes an effective (if not entirely impassable) low spell level defense.

Edit: For some reason I had a major lapse of reasoning in regards to area spells. I blame it on lack of sleep. Forgive my lapse of rules-fu.

[Draz74]

Mirror image? A few alchemists fires will get rid of them pretty quickly since even a miss will damage everything in range for 1 hp which is enough to take out an image. For that matter, the aforementioned fireball spell could potentially take them all out - and damage the wizard. Sure, energy resistance will stop the wizard taking damage but the mirror images aren't protected by it.

Uh, you're underestimating and misinterpreting Mirror Image. Area effects don't hurt the images. Explicitly. (Whoops ... majorly ninja'd.)

[Gorbash]

and it takes a couple rounds or so for haste to come out ahead.

Not really... It can come out ahead in one round, as well. The more rounds pass, the greater its effect. If you have 4 melee fighters facing 4 enemies, the damage of haste would be about the same as that of a Fireball (on a successful save). The next round the same happens, but Fireball doesn't last 2 rounds.

For example, in my party I have a Cleric/Stormlord, Ranger/Beastmaster, Rogue/Invisible Blade and a Barbarian. The round I cast Haste on them, every single one of them gets that extra attack (I wait for the second round to begin in order for them to get into position to full attack), and at 10th lvl, every single one of them will be doing quite some damage with each attack. It just gets better with each passing round.

[afroakuma]

Guys, can we not rehash this endless debate? It's off-topic in any event; we're supposed to be comparing the generic spellcaster to the sorcerer, not debating the merits of fireball over haste as wizard spell selections.

[MeklorIlavator]

AC scales. Anyone who says otherwise just doesn't know how to optimize cheap AC at higher levels. There are tips at www.wizards.com => resources => 3.5 archives => tactics & tips or rules. Basically you vary your sources.

This should probably go in another thread, but can you prove this? I've seen you claim this many times, but never seen any evidence that you can do this while still remaining an effective force in the party.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Mirror image is ridiculously easy to overcome with either magical or martial counters. Martially you just full attack a ranged weapon at the images. You're almost guaranteed to hit since their AC is a measly 10 + dex.

If you're in a position to full-attack a Wizard, he almost certainly deserves to die. Besides, you probably only hit him once, which is better than he could have expected from boosting AC, meaning the spell did the job. But really, he should be flying, 30'+ away, behind minionsparty members, and therefore only vulnerable to charges, which are by nature single attacks for anything that can reach him.

Magically you spread magic missile on multiple targets or scorching ray or any multi-target, but not area spells.

You pretty much just listed the options. Fortunately, a single missile/ray doesn't actually hurt.

AC scales. Anyone who says otherwise just doesn't know how to optimize cheap AC at higher levels. There are tips at www.wizards.com => resources => 3.5 archives => tactics & tips or rules. Basically you vary your sources.

Post a build, level 10, that is able to utilize reach this AC and still remain dangerous to the opponents. You're going to find the only option for getting level+23 AC(what I consider the baseline) generally involves Full-Plate+Tower Shield.

The only comparison I've ever seen trying to invalidate fireball compares a 5d6 (not 10d6) fireball

The lowest level you gain access to it, since the numbers are easy to figure then

targetting a single target (not an area) against the almighty haste (another must-have spell)... and it takes a couple rounds or so for haste to come out ahead, depending on how long it takes to get full attacks.

Actually, the Fireball falls behind after one round. Rogue attacks for 3d6(SA)+4(Craven)+1(Weapon Enhancement)+1d6(Weapon), which alone is better against a single target. Add in Fighter/Barbarian attacks for 2d6(Weapon)+1(Weapon Enhancement)+8(Str[Half-Orc+Rage])+2(Weapon Specialization) and suddenly the Haste is better, in a single round, than Fireball against 2 enemies. Want me to run the numbers with a Druid in the party?

Scorching ray isn't too shabby either, especially if you're sticking to core. It helps to have backup energy types, but that tends to be a lot easier than dealing with immunities/counters/etc with SoD's. Try your usual tactics on a dragon, read his description, then find out, "Nope, ability #37 negates that" or his saves are way too high (fort & will for a dragon) or etc.

Quickened Ray of Clumsiness/Split Ray of Exhastion. Dead Dragon, one round, 2 spells. How many spells would it take to deal with a Dragon's HP? Looking at the SRD, they generally have between 1.5 and 2 times their CR in HD. That's between 3 and four spells, minimum. Toss in another spell for every 3-4 points of Con mod. And don't forget the Dragon has good Reflex saves, that's another spell every 2 times he saves. How many rounds are you looking at then?

And you don't need to choose; you bring different kinds of spells for different kinds of foes.

See, that's what people say about Batman spell lists, to which you usually reply "But some monsters are immune".

[lsfreak]

The lowest level you gain access to it, since the numbers are easy to figure then

... and if you really want to compare 10d6 Fireball, you've got to keep in mind everyone else scales up too. A rogue does roughly 7d6+15 damage per attack with a little bit of optimizing. A fighter/barb/warblade with pounce and Leap Attack, 2d6+30 without a problem. And so on.
/semiofftopic

[AmberVael]

Guys, can we not rehash this endless debate? It's off-topic in any event; we're supposed to be comparing the generic spellcaster to the sorcerer, not debating the merits of fireball over haste as wizard spell selections.

Yeah, to get back on topic...
Yes, Generic Spellcaster is better. They lose out a tiny bit on spells per day, but Sorcerer gets quite a few anyways.

Properly made, they can also wear armor and choose the best spells from Wizard AND Cleric lists. Sure, arcane spells may generally be better than divine, but the ability to use some of the cleric spells could come in handy.

They also get feats. If you really want a familiar, get the Obtain familiar feat. You now have a familiar AND four feats.

Honestly I find that Generic Spellcaster makes for a better sorcerer class to include in games than Sorcerer- it emphasizes the randomness of people who develop sorcerer powers, and allows far more versatility in creating them.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding whether Arcane or Divine casting is better, I'd argue that Divine is better due to classing healing as essential (one problem with relying on CLW wands is that they soon become useless in battle, and I've often found that using healing magic in battle is essential). One problem with mentioning all the defences Wizards hae access to is that they take time to use, so, unless you can ambush the enemy, it's a choice between using the 1st round to protect yourself or buff allies/ hinder or blast enemies. Considering how fragile Wizards and Sorcerers are, I'd say that Ckerics and Druids definitly have an advantage over them.

Regarding Generic Classes, I started a thread about whether they were better then normal classes, and I think most people thought they were due to having more options.

[Myrmex]

Wind Wall, a third level spell, solves most of those problems quite handily.

Too bad he banned evocation.