[4E] overpowered stuff in heroic and paragon

[Kurald Galain]

I'm curious what things people have found in 4E that are overpowered. By that, I do not mean "game breaking", I mean options that are way more powerful than anything else at the same level. This is about heroic and paragon, not epic; epic (and particularly level 30) is a different cup of tea.

This is what I've heard so far, based on what some DMs around here ban (or would like to ban):
* Consecrated Ground (cleric/5; essentially means your party can't die any more unless the DM starts coup-de-gracing; but people tend to overlook or disagree that the zone ends if the cleric moves away from it)
* Destructive Salutation (blood mage/20; because it stuns on a miss)
* Guileful Switch (warlord/6; on the first turn of each encounter, gives a party member of your choice an extra turn)
* Intimidate (the usage of the skill that forces opponents to surrender, if you assume the given DC applies in combat)
* Orb of Imposition combined with several items that penalize saving throws (because the penalties can get quite ludicrous in the paragon tier)
* Potion of Clarity (a consumable that duplicates elven accuracy and is cheap enough to use every important combat from high heroic levels onward)
* Rain of Blows (fighter/3; arguably gives four attacks, which does more damage than many higher-level powers)
* Righteous Rage of Tempus (a divinity feat; it is much stronger than any other divinity feat, and combos well)
* Sleep (wizard/1; multi-target paralysis effects are otherwise unheard of until much higher levels)

... and that's pretty much it. Not bad at all, considering there's several hundred powers printed so far.

To reiterate, I do not mean "game breaking", I mean options that are way more powerful than anything else at the same level.

[Break]

* Spitting-Cobra Stance (ranger daily 5, effectively grants threatening reach 5)
* Storm of Blades (barbarian encounter 13, making your Con mod in attacks; really, did no one think Blade Cascade was bad enough? And as an encounter power, without the limitation that missing will stop the power dead, to boot?)
* Arguably, Quicksilver Stance (fighter daily 15, extra attacks for a move action, with possible bonus damage if you've got combat advantage)

[eepop]

Storm of Blades is pretty powerful, but it does have a only hit limit:

Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage. Then repeat the
attack against the target or against another creature
within reach. You can make the attack a number of times
equal to your Constitution modifier.

Notice that the part that lets you repeat the attack is under the "Hit" label, thus that is only triggered when you hit.

[Mando Knight]

Certain Justice (Champion of Order 11 encounter). +4 innate bonus to the attack, dazes and weakens on a hit, condition continues until the mark it was under is removed. Divine Challenge doesn't wear off until the Paladin either DCs another target or fails to engage the target. Thus, the opponent has to fly away or else the Paladin will just re-engage, and it can't double-move, either. With weakening and some allies with Defensive Advantage, the target becomes impotent.

Oh yeah, and the target can't take opportunity actions, either, so it really eases up flanking maneuvers around the thing.

[JackMage666]

Knockout's the one I've seen - Weapon power vs Fort, target is Unconscious (save ends) on a hit.

[Darth Stabber]

Shield SlamStrength +2 vs Fortitude, Tr: You Hit enemy with attack; Hit: Push target 1 square and knock prone. Must have shield. Non-action. Works on OAs, so I can knock them down on their turn, giving the whole party a round of attacks against a prone foe. The only thing it is missing is damage, and given that the guy is prone, that will come alot easier for the other party members.

Rhino Strike Strength vs AC, Must Charge, If you have a shield you don't grant attacks of opportunity; Hit: 2[w]+strength modifier. It is essentially shift charging for sword and board fighters

Any Fighter AOE - Marks all around

Dwarven Armor - Free action Heal your HSV, and it doesn't cost a surge, so you never have to guess when you will need it, just wait till damage is rolled and if you need it pop it.

Elven Avengers of Tempus - They don't miss ever, they crit a lot, they get a ton of free movement, they just donkey stomp whatever you point them @, best single target DPR in the game.

[Hzurr]

I'm going to echo Guileful Switch (warlord/6; on the first turn of each encounter, gives a party member of your choice an extra turn), primarily because it's a minor action. This means, that in a round of combat, you can have:

Character A: full round
Character B: Standard, a move, then Guileful Switch with Character A
Character A: Another full round.

It's ridiculous, especially when combined with some of the buffs that are only meant to last 1 round (things like "An extra [W] damage", "grants combat advantage", etc. A number of abilities that do this are balanced because it assumes that a character will only be attacked once, (maybe twice with an action point) per round, and this breaks it. Especially if character A is a striker.

[TheOOB]

RRoT is I think the only thing I have ever explicitly banned from my game.

[Darth Stabber]

I propose a simple fix to the issues with RRoT, and the clergy of Tempus. Keep Tempus around and give him the same channel divinity as Kord. They both serve the same role in their respective pantheons, I.E. both patrons of honorable combat, so reasonably It would still gives tempus's worshipers a channel divinity in flavor with their deity, and it would cut out the RRoT Cheese.

On another note, why do some of the gods have just crappy channel divinities. Most notably Moradin.

[Kurald Galain]

Shield SlamStrength +2 vs Fortitude, Tr: You Hit enemy with attack; Hit: Push target 1 square and knock prone.

Wait, what? Something that grants combat advantage for a turn is now overpowered? Then what about Color Spray?

And are you saying that dragonborn fighters are overpowered, since they come with an AOE at level 1?

[ocato]

I prefer Shield Bash over Shield Slam, but that is mostly because:

A) I don't like 'piggy back' powers. I feel like it's too easy to blow your load on what can often be over kill. Worse yet, piggy back powers can be useless in some situations because you can't or don't perform the proper action to allow the use of them. That doesn't necessarily apply to this situation (unless you have a foe with high AC that you're trying to work down by granting CA to all allies via prone). It's just my preference for powers, piggy-backing isn't fluid enough for my tastes.

B) Shield Bash attacks reflex instead of fortitude (fort being typically higher than reflex) and does its own damage. Dwarves may find that it does comparable damage to a 1|w| power at lower-medium levels depending on your wisdom.

C) Sweeping Blow! Assuming that you are using an Axe, Heavy Blade, Flail, or a pick (which isn't a bad list of weapon choices) or even if you aren't, Sweeping blow is probably one of the best choices for a 3rd level attack power for a defender (in my opinion) because it lets you mark multiple targets. Wardens might have the upper hand in multi-target marking in lower level situations, but Sweeping blow (and later Come and Get It and Thicket of Blades) form a cornerstone of a heroic defender fighter's meteoric rise to defensive greatness. Shield Slam doesn't compare to the utility of a good multi-mark.

So, I personally think Shield Slam doesn't need to be on the list. Knocking somebody prone isn't holy-cats amazing. It's good and it's worth doing. No more, no less.

[JackMage666]

Bugbears (or other creatures who can wield Large weapons) who use Large Executioner's Axes. It's a 2d6 Brutal 2 weapon, meaning you're doing 6-12 damage with it, before anything else. Is it overpowered? No, but it's pretty good for consistent damage output.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Knockout's the one I've seen - Weapon power vs Fort, target is Unconscious (save ends) on a hit.

Ah, but there is a clause after that which says if the target takes damage, he wakes up.

Sleep is OP because it lacks such a clause, is a 1st level Daily, and an Area of Effect power. Oh, and it will always, at the very least, Slow your opponents.

Since it hasn't been Errata'd by now, I can only assume that that omission was intentional. Incredible.

[JMobius]

My party's warlock has condemned minions to utter irrelevance, with a combination of a Rod of Corruption, tactically directing teammates targeting, and Cursebite from the Forgotten Realm's handbook.

I liked minions.

[Oracle_Hunter]

My party's warlock has condemned minions to utter irrelevance, with a combination of a Rod of Corruption, tactically directing teammates targeting, and Cursebite from the Forgotten Realm's handbook.

I liked minions.

This is why you never give out Rods of Corruption. Make 'em work for those kills!

What is Cursebite, BTW?

[JMobius]

A level one Warlock Encounter power. All marked targets take 2d8 necrotic damage, +INT mod if you're Dark Pact.

Yeah...

[RTGoodman]

What is Cursebite, BTW?

A pretty ridiculous power from FRPG, apparently.

Warlock encounter attack 1, Close burst 20, targets each enemy in the burst who's under your curse, Charisma vs. Fort, 2d8 necrotic damage (+Int with Dark Pact)

[Oracle_Hunter]

A pretty ridiculous power from FRPG, apparently.

Warlock encounter attack 1, Close burst 20, targets each enemy in the burst who's under your curse, Charisma vs. Fort, 2d8 necrotic damage (+Int with Dark Pact)

Hmm. Yes, I can see how that would be a problem. Basically the Warlock spends a few turns Cursing everyone, and then nukes the world.

It's no RROT, but it's really friggin' good.

[ocato]

I dunno, I think that area effects and corruption cursing doesn't invalidate minions. Minions are just action/healing surge siphons. If you make the warlock spend his entire turn blipping little guys for 1 damage each, then he isn't contributing to whatever else is going on. Even if he only uses his minor action to blip a minion, that's 1d6 less damage the other monsters are taking (or you're depriving the warlock of moves, which can also work very well). If anything, I take the presence of Area powers and corruption cursing as a valid excuse to dump 10 extra minions into a fight. Gives it that epic feel.

EDIT: A second look at the Warlock's curse shows that it's once per turn, something I never noticed/was told otherwise. I know a Darklock who's getting his Rod of Corruption shoved where the sun don't shine.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I dunno, I think that area effects and corruption cursing doesn't invalidate minions. Minions are just action/healing surge siphons. If you make the warlock spend his entire turn blipping little guys for 1 damage each, then he isn't contributing to whatever else is going on. Even if he only uses his minor action to blip a minion, that's 1d6 less damage the other monsters are taking (or you're depriving the warlock of moves, which can also work very well). If anything, I take the presence of Area powers and corruption cursing as a valid excuse to dump 10 extra minions into a fight. Gives it that epic feel.

EDIT: A second look at the Warlock's curse shows that it's once per turn, something I never noticed/was told otherwise. I know a Darklock who's getting his Rod of Corruption shoved where the sun don't shine.

Well yeah, you can dump more minions in, but that just gives more free XP to the PCs.

Y'see, the point of minions is that they're still supposed to be kind-of threatening while not overwhelming the party. That's why they have good defenses and do a goodly amount of damage on an attack. Being able to, as a minor action kill 1 minion per turn - no rolls - is ridiculous. Other auto-damage effects are either Daily powers or Paragon Path features - not a basic class feature combined with a low-level magic item.

Plus, Warlocks can just spend one turn putting a Curse on someone who's going to stay around for awhile and then spend the rest of his time killing 1 minion per turn while whaling on the BBEG. It's ridiculous!

[Reinboom]

Oracle:
I'm kind of curious.
How many minions do you believe a standard action should be able to remove on average?

Interestingly, none of the named powers have come up for me yet. About the furthest extreme I've had is noting that Twin Strike is really, really, good for an at-will 1.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Oracle:
I'm kind of curious.
How many minions do you believe a standard action should be able to remove on average?

Interestingly, none of the named powers have come up for me yet. About the furthest extreme I've had is noting that Twin Strike is really, really, good for an at-will 1.

Oh, it's not the standard action bit, it's the auto-hit at-will that gets me. The closest power I've seen is Cloud of Daggers, which has a limited range and requires a Standard Action to use. If you don't hit on the first try, then the minion dies on its turn.

Curse? It has a line-of-sight range and takes a minor action to use. It takes out minions instantly and without an attack roll.

Other anti-minion powers either require attack rolls (Scorching Burst) or the expenditure of significant resources (i.e. a Daily power). For example, the party I'm DMing for has a Paladin, Warlord, and Warlock in it - no easy anti-minion choice. So, when the party gets swarmed by minions, the Warlock pops Armor of Agathesis and goes to town. But, she has to get into melee range with the baddies to do so and, if they fight more minions later in the day, she's out of luck. This makes minions Serious Business for my PCs.

The party with a Warlock who can whack-a-mole minions all day without mussing his hair? Not so much

[Alteran]

Twin Strike isn't that great until you get to epic tier. You do 2[W] instead of 1[W] + str/dex mod, and it shows.

A level 1 TWF Ranger with a longsword:

1[W] + STR Mod:
4.5 (d8 damage)
4 (18 STR)

=8.5 average damage, not counting hunter's quarry.

Twin Strike:
4.5 (d8 damage)
4.5 (d8 damage)

=9 average damage.

However, at 21st level:

2[W] + STR Mod:
4.5 (d8 damage)
4.5 (d8 damage)
4 (18 STR)

= 13 average damage.

Twin Strike:

4.5 (d8 damage)
4.5 (d8 damage)
4.5 (d8 damage)
4.5 (d8 damage)

= 18 average damage.

Larger weapon dice and damage boosts are better for twin strike, but the other at-will powers let you do something else. The average damage is actually quite similar until you reach epic tier, since the modifier on other at-will powers does not get doubled, but both dice for twin strike do. One of the reasons twin strike is so useful is that you're more likely to hit at least once and deal hunter's quarry damage.

Good, yes. Overpowered, no. Maybe at epic tier.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Twin Strike isn't that great until you get to epic tier. You do 2[W] instead of 1[W] + str/dex mod, and it shows.

Well, you're ignoring non-ability score damage bonuses to that roll. Anything from Weapon Focus to Power Attack and various Warlord powers can boost your damage amount on Twin Strike with ease.

No, it's not quite Two-Fang Strike, but it is a very good power that can get downright nasty if you work at it.

[ocato]

That's my favorite thing about minions! You can throw a grunch of them into a fight and increase the experience per party member by a fairly small amount. For a party that doesn't have an easy mop up on minions, I use them more conservatively. But if the party has a wizard or somesuch? Then minions are everywhere.

I think of them more or less the same as a trap. A trap is a low experience hassle that is meant to drain resources and morale, not kill people. You don't throw minions into a fight to frighten players, you throw them in there to waste an action or three and maybe drain an extra healing surge.

As for twin strike, I think the concern isn't the damage it deals on its own but the ability to break other powers and feats used in conjunction. The Warlord gives you +10 to damage until the end of his next turn? Sweet! Twin Strike! 1|w|+weapon enhancement/feats/etc+10 x2! I'm sure that's the absolute worst example. The better examples probably include some sort of ridiculous warlord/bard nova coupled with a combination of feats/paragon paths/magical items that let the Ranger (or Half Elf) attack a billion times and crit on 18-20, dealing some ludicrous amount of damage that is only supposed to be balanced because it is expected that the person dealing the damage would attack once, not twice or more.

[Mando Knight]

*Maths*

Not quite. Remember Weapon Focus and Enhancement Bonuses? They apply to each damage roll of Twin Strike, so a heroic tier 18 Str TWF Ranger with Weapon Focus, and two +1 longswords would deal
1[W]+Str = 4.5+4+1+1 = 10.5 average damage on a basic attack,
or two attacks of 1[W] that would come out to
(1d8+1+1)+(1d8+1+1) = 2(6.5) = 13 average damage when both attacks hit. (this is, of course, neglecting Hunter's Quarry, which is assumed to be the same for both sides)

If he takes Demigod and boosts Strength all 10 points possible and switches to Bastard Swords, then his average hit damage for his basic attacks at level 30 becomes
2[W]+Str = 2(5.5)+9+6+3 = 29 average damage,
or
2 x 2[W] = 2(2(5.5)+3+6) = 40 average damage.

Of course, this is just average damage on a pair of hits, so the actual average damage per round would be a bit lower once you calculate in hit chance, and more severely impact Twin Strike.

[Reinboom]

Good, yes. Overpowered, no. Maybe at epic tier.

There are faults in your math, as pointed out. By others.
Further, I said very very good, which I will stand by. I did not, however, say overpowered.

-snip-

I meant for my question to be more in a bubble. Without referring to the rest of the topic at hand, really. I like gathering information like others views on autohits, especially with my recent issue of balancing against minions, comes to light. For personal design inspection.
However, you answered what I needed, thank you.

Of course, this is just average damage on a pair of hits, so the actual average damage per round would be a bit lower once you calculate in hit chance, and more severely impact Twin Strike.

Actually, not quite. Most of the time, the hit chance is consistent for both hits. Which means, the average is the same divided then summed.
The only result is that twin strike is more consistent on reaching an average damage.

Edit: Calculated, assuming 18 stats and +1 1d10 weaponry, for hits, assuming 11 is a hit:
Twinstrike: 7.2 damage average
Other: 5.4 damage average

[Oracle_Hunter]

I meant for my question to be more in a bubble. Without referring to the rest of the topic at hand, really. I like gathering information like others views on autohits, especially with my recent issue of balancing against minions, comes to light. For personal design inspection.
However, you answered what I needed, thank you.

Happy to oblige

I seem to be in a rant-y mood today, so a little more about minions:

Spoiler

Show

They should not terrify your PCs, but they should frighten them. The very moment that minions become a speed-bump is the moment they become boring. A PC staring down a horde of (mostly minion) skeletons lead by a Necromancer should be worried about having to cleave through them without getting too badly damaged (or tied up long enough for the Skeleton Archers in the back to turn you into a pincushion) but not that they will curbstomp the party without a chance to survive.

Putting more minions in to fix a Corruption Warlock does not change the minions back into a frightening force - it is still only a question of degree, not kind. The PCs know that they can eliminate the minions with little personal risk if given enough time - there is no uncertainty. And it's not like the Warlock can't keep pounding the Real Bad Guys while he snaps a minion away as an afterthought either.

But the Rain of Steel Fighter, Cleaving his way up the middle? He knows he's sunk substantial resources into this fight and that every round he's tied up with Skeletons is another round for the Necromancer to lance his buddies with Fell Powers (tm) unopposed. He gives his full attention to those minions - they are a challenge, not a speedbump.

[1of3]

Bugbears (or other creatures who can wield Large weapons) who use Large Executioner's Axes.

Relax, no race is supposed to have Oversized any more. According to mearls. Minotaurs already lost it, the others will, too.

[Colmarr]

Curse? It has a line-of-sight range and takes a minor action to use. It takes out minions instantly and without an attack roll.

Isn't curse nearest enemy only? If so, it actually as a range of however far away the nearest enemy is, which is not quite the same as line-of-sight.

Having said that, the curse/minion problem is more a problem with the Rod of Corruption than a problem with either warlock's curse or minions IMO.