GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread

[ErrantX]

@Ascension

Your Sword of God class fits the bill, where as the other one, while really neat (Build it and put it up!) does not fit. I say go with that. Either give it a small pool of divine (easier) OR... give it mantles like an Ardent or Divine Mind (Complete Psionic).

Either would be good, but I must personally say it would be neater for the Ardent or Divine Mind like progression with psionic mantles.

-X

[Ascension]

Problem is I don't have Complete Psionic, and I've never gone near an Ardent or Divine Mind. I'll take that under advice, though.

Sword of God it is... for the contest, at least. I actually think I might expand Bladewarper to a base class and simply present it as an alternative to Soulknife instead of an upgrade pack. Or at least I'll try.

[ErrantX]

Problem is I don't have Complete Psionic, and I've never gone near an Ardent or Divine Mind. I'll take that under advice, though.

Sword of God it is... for the contest, at least. I actually think I might expand Bladewarper to a base class and simply present it as an alternative to Soulknife instead of an upgrade pack. Or at least I'll try.

If nothing else it would make for an excellent PrC or for a great set of ACF's for Soulknife.

-X

[Lord_Gareth]

Alrighty; I'll get the Wretched written up and then try to post 'em sometime within the next week.

Are you accepting ideas for new contests?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Alrighty; I'll get the Wretched written up and then try to post 'em sometime within the next week.

Are you accepting ideas for new contests?

Speaking of new contests...I discussed this with ErrantX, and wanted to run it by everyone to see if there was any interest.

Speaking strictly for myself, I want to see more homebrew on the boards...and also always want to submit multiple entries into this particular contest. Thus, in the interest of generating more creations, I've toyed with the idea of starting a second PrC contest that will overlap with ErrantX's. His is six weeks long (42 days). My proposed contest would start 21 days into this (or July 17) and also run for weeks, giving a three week period to create a class for either contest without having to multitask (unless your entry is during the last two weeks of one contest).

I was also debating a new method of setting the "theme." Rather than posting criteria or a written theme, I thought of providing an image to be used for inspiration. The class so created wouldn't need to represent the image completely, but should be, in some manner, drawn from the picture. If the image was a tattooed shaman, for example, a mystic/wiseman class would be appropriate, a spirit shaman or Binder PrC with a bit of nature or spirit flavor, a tattooed caster of some sort, or anything else with some connection to the image...basically, it's a starting point to let your mind wander just like this current contest's prompts, but aiming at a different part of the brain.

Thoughts?

[Lord_Gareth]

That, my friend, sound like a plan ^_^

[Ascension]

I definitely like the idea of using an image as inspiration. For one thing, it'd relieve us of the burden of trying to find a picture representative of the class. You wouldn't believe how hard it is to find good pictures for Soulknife prestige classes. Light-swords aren't hard to find, but fully insubstantial blades? No hilt? It's a hassle.

[Lord_Gareth]

Okay, I've got a couple of mechanics that I'd like to get critiqued before I start doing the rest of the class:

Siphon Magic (Su): The Wretched can no longer use their own spells, but their addiction still demands to be fed, clawing away at their minds and souls in its hunger. By making a melee touch attack, a Wretched can bestow a single negative level upon a creature that casts arcane or divine spells. Each time the Wretched bestows a negative level this way, that creature loses all prepared spells (or spell slots) in the lowest-level of magic that it still has prepared spells (or slots) available in. The Wretched immediately gains those spells as if he knew them, and may cast them as normal (subject to his spells per day). Spells prepared with metamagic effects are stolen with those effects intact.

Each hour that the Wretched goes without a fresh infusion of spells, he loses the highest-level spells he knows. Should the Wretched go a day or more without spells, he is afflicted with the debilitating madness of his addiction; he is dealt 1 point of intelligence, wisdom, and charisma damage per day that he fails to drain spells in this manner.

[mercurymaline]

I think the stealing spells effect is plenty powerful, without also needing to bestow negative levels. And damage to 3 scores every day for not using it is...a lot. I hope it's a high magic world you're running.

[Lord_Gareth]

The reason they're bestowing negative levels is because they're sapping souls. And the damage/day is sort of an...emphasis. They're the wretched, not, "Those uber badasses that run around stealing everyone's spells, WEEEE!"

[Salvonus]

Hmm... I think I may have found another interesting idea that I might tackle. Still plenty of time.

[mercurymaline]

The reason they're bestowing negative levels is because they're sapping souls. And the damage/day is sort of an...emphasis. They're the wretched, not, "Those uber badasses that run around stealing everyone's spells, WEEEE!"

Alright, rather powerful ability, hefty drawback. If that's what you're going for, groovy, and I think it does balance. It's just not something I would use, is all I'm saying.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Okay, I've got a couple of mechanics that I'd like to get critiqued before I start doing the rest of the class:

Siphon Magic (Su): The Wretched can no longer use their own spells, but their addiction still demands to be fed, clawing away at their minds and souls in its hunger. By making a melee touch attack, a Wretched can bestow a single negative level upon a creature that casts arcane or divine spells. Each time the Wretched bestows a negative level this way, that creature loses all prepared spells (or spell slots) in the lowest-level of magic that it still has prepared spells (or slots) available in. The Wretched immediately gains those spells as if he knew them, and may cast them as normal (subject to his spells per day). Spells prepared with metamagic effects are stolen with those effects intact.

Each hour that the Wretched goes without a fresh infusion of spells, he loses the highest-level spells he knows. Should the Wretched go a day or more without spells, he is afflicted with the debilitating madness of his addiction; he is dealt 1 point of intelligence, wisdom, and charisma damage per day that he fails to drain spells in this manner.

Since it's the lowest spell level they possess, this is probably fairly balanced. I would, however, make the attack take a standard action (no need to be dealing 3 negative levels/round as WELL as sapping three levels of spells). Also, possibly allow a Will save to negate part (the spell-sapping) or all of the attack.

The drawback is hefty, but understandable, and not to hard to deal with. I like it.

[TSED]

Speaking of new contests...I discussed this with ErrantX, and wanted to run it by everyone to see if there was any interest.

Speaking strictly for myself, I want to see more homebrew on the boards...and also always want to submit multiple entries into this particular contest. Thus, in the interest of generating more creations, I've toyed with the idea of starting a second PrC contest that will overlap with ErrantX's. His is six weeks long (42 days). My proposed contest would start 21 days into this (or July 17) and also run for weeks, giving a three week period to create a class for either contest without having to multitask (unless your entry is during the last two weeks of one contest).

I was also debating a new method of setting the "theme." Rather than posting criteria or a written theme, I thought of providing an image to be used for inspiration. The class so created wouldn't need to represent the image completely, but should be, in some manner, drawn from the picture. If the image was a tattooed shaman, for example, a mystic/wiseman class would be appropriate, a spirit shaman or Binder PrC with a bit of nature or spirit flavor, a tattooed caster of some sort, or anything else with some connection to the image...basically, it's a starting point to let your mind wander just like this current contest's prompts, but aiming at a different part of the brain.

Thoughts?

I'll participate.

I know that I keep wishing that you could make more than one entry to this contest.

[Dante & Vergil]

I have had an idea for a presteige class that gains an some great arcane power at the cost of selling one's soul to dark masters. The problem is I don't have anything in the crunch department to finalize this price, other than not being able to be brought back to life by any means short of divine intervention.

[Emong]

I have had an idea for a presteige class that gains an some great arcane power at the cost of selling one's soul to dark masters. The problem is I don't have anything in the crunch department to finalize this price, other than not being able to be brought back to life by any means short of divine intervention.

Maybe you could use Con penalties to represent the fact that their power wasn't meant to be used by mortals. (Or whatever justification you want to use.)

[Dante & Vergil]

Maybe you could use Con penalties to represent the fact that their power wasn't meant to be used by mortals. (Or whatever justification you want to use.)

That might work, but I'll make it wisdom drain or something if the character is undead. That way there's no evading it.

[TSED]

That might work, but I'll make it wisdom drain or something if the character is undead. That way there's no evading it.

You could make it a penalty to all stats except 2 of their choice, and they cannot choose a stat they don't have a score for?

[Kellus]

My entry is up– the Demon Corsair, a pirate who has sold his soul to the Lower Planes in exchange for a ship of pure evil.

[Kellus]

I finally finished my monster of a stat block, and thought I'd post my thoughts on the other entries.

Reshaped

Very interesting idea. I really like the idea of somebody embracing their new form, and it allows for all sorts of fairy tale creatures that couldn't really have worked before. The mechanics seem fairly simple, but they work. A hard class to get into, but it certainly offers a lot.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how fond I am of you losing all your previous spellcasting. It makes sense with the character concept, but it would still be pretty annoying to a character to suddenly lose all their previous abilities. Since all reshaped start off pretty much identically at 11th level, there's going to be very little variation between individuals. Unfortunately, I don't really see a solution that keeps the idea of the class.

Still, it's very nice and the spellcasting formulas work out great so you really just trade your spellcasting in for a new progression. You still get 9th level spells, so it's all good.

EDIT: See my additional comments at the bottom.

Eerie Traveller

Very very cool. This class has character. The mechanics and the abilities seem to be fairly complex, which is a good thing. There are a lot of cool things you can do with this class, and any number of possible entry paths. Very interesting and very cool. I do like the invoking, but I'd suggest actually writing out the new ones you're making instead of summarizing it in a few words. If people are going to be playing it, they need all the information they'd normally have, such as effective spell level.

Great class, though. One thing that does annoy me a little is that Survival is the requisite skill to get in (which, okay, I guess for a wanderer) but you don't do anything with that skill once you're in the class. It's all about madness and chaos and terrible secrets. Doesn't really make sense. Knowledge (the Planes) would probably be a better bet for the 8 rank skill to get in. I do love the invocation progression, though. You've really thought it out nicely as far as the advancement goes.

Pariahmind

It's a funny one. I guess the basic idea is somebody that discovers latent powers and figures out how to use them by guesswork? It could work, but it strikes me as a concept that might work better as a shorter class that wouldn't interrupt your original path as much. I assume that the class has a medium BAB and a higher HD so as to represent that you're continuing your previous studies at the same time, and it would probably similarly make sense to raise skill points to 4 + Int for the same reason. Also, am I missing something, or does it not say what his manifester level is or the save DC for his powers?

As for his class features, they're very cool and relevant to the theme, but some info's missing. Take for example usurp. Do you get the drained power points? What if the drained power points exceed you total pp/day? Do the drained power power points come from the power points used to manifest the power against him, or from the manifester's unused power points? What if the manifester doesn't have enough power points to pay it? What if the extra power point cost makes him exceed his limit of power points spent on a single power?

Questions that need to be answered.

Also, sequester is a cool idea, but it's missing a saving throw. As it stands, anybody that touches your mind pretty much dies. A cool concept, but I'd say pretty broken. I don't imagine many players being happy about this when they run into a pariahmind. At least put in a save, or require the pariahmind to spend power points to use it as an immediate action. Also, the text says 9th level, but the table says 10th.

Still, very cool idea that hasn't been explored in psionics so far! Neat!

Geomancer

It's certainly unique! A totally new 'casting' system! I need a bit more time before I can comment on this one, because I need to crunch some numbers and see what all it can actually do. I'll get back to this one!

Knight Unmaker

One of my favourites. Shadowcasting is awesome, and does not get enough support (or any, for that matter). Looks very awesome, and I like that you're making new mysteries for it too. However, and it's a big however, the spellcasting progression doesn't quite make sense. If you enter the class when you're supposed to (7th level?) you get a reasonable progression of shadowcasting. But the longer you delay your entry into it, the more powerful it becomes when you take your first level. Take, for example, a paladin 19/knight unmaker 1. On his first level into the class, he suddenly learns 12 mysteries of up to 9th level. In a single level. Obviously this is an extreme example, but I think it's a mistake to base it on effective paladin level rather than knight unmaker level. I understand the reason you chose to go with it, but I think having just the prestige class grant it might capture the feel of it better.

I LOVE that they cast them as divine spells, though. Does this qualify them to enter prestige classes that advance divine spellcasting? You might want to put a note in there about it. Otherwise, completely awesome. I love the steed, and the abilities fit perfectly.

Energy Initiate

Never mind. I had a whole comment planned out, but then I realized that he withdrew this one from the contest. My bad!

... Now to start reading the geomancer in detail.

EDIT: The daelkyr bloodlord, too. Also a very complex class, and I think I'm missing something. I'll have to get back to you on that one too.

EDIT the SECOND– On the topic of the reshaped again. After reading a bit more indepth on how relearning works, it alleviates some of my concerns. On the other hand, most spellcasting classes don't have that many Su or Ex abilities floating around. Also, you use an example of a warlock, who I suppose could enter with an invocation imitating dispel magic or baleful polymorph. But their incovations are spell-like abilities, which aren't applicable to relearning. So he wouldn't be able to relearn his eldritch blast, for example, as you claim.

Another thought I had for it, maybe allow them to retrain some of their feats that might not be relevant anymore? Maybe the same thing for skill points as well.

[mercurymaline]

I had meant for Sequester to mimic the microcosm power, which has no saving throw. Though, it is a 9th level power, and I agree, a bit broken. I'll add a save.

As for the rest, I'm glad for the critique, but it's come just before I leave for vacation. I'll hammer out the kinks as soon as I get back.

[Eurus]

Knight Unmaker

One of my favourites. Shadowcasting is awesome, and does not get enough support (or any, for that matter). Looks very awesome, and I like that you're making new mysteries for it too. However, and it's a big however, the spellcasting progression doesn't quite make sense. If you enter the class when you're supposed to (7th level?) you get a reasonable progression of shadowcasting. But the longer you delay your entry into it, the more powerful it becomes when you take your first level. Take, for example, a paladin 19/knight unmaker 1. On his first level into the class, he suddenly learns 12 mysteries of up to 9th level. In a single level. Obviously this is an extreme example, but I think it's a mistake to base it on effective paladin level rather than knight unmaker level. I understand the reason you chose to go with it, but I think having just the prestige class grant it might capture the feel of it better.

I LOVE that they cast them as divine spells, though. Does this qualify them to enter prestige classes that advance divine spellcasting? You might want to put a note in there about it. Otherwise, completely awesome. I love the steed, and the abilities fit perfectly.

Ah, I didn't think about the impact of entering it at a later level. Maybe if I altered it so that you can trade in a number of levels of Paladin spellcasting progression up to your Knight Unmaker level, instead of all at once? You'd advance at a fast pace, but only if you have the Paladin levels to back it up.

As to the prestige class question, I'm not entirely sure. The question is, how balanced would it be? Right now I'm leaning toward only letting them qualify for prestige classes that don't specify arcane or divine, like Shadowcasters do. On the other hand, if a Paladin already had levels in a PrC that required divine spellcasting, it would be rather cruel to suddenly deprive them of it...

[Kellus]

Ah, I didn't think about the impact of entering it at a later level. Maybe if I altered it so that you can trade in a number of levels of Paladin spellcasting progression up to your Knight Unmaker level, instead of all at once? You'd advance at a fast pace, but only if you have the Paladin levels to back it up.

As to the prestige class question, I'm not entirely sure. The question is, how balanced would it be? Right now I'm leaning toward only letting them qualify for prestige classes that don't specify arcane or divine, like Shadowcasters do. On the other hand, if a Paladin already had levels in a PrC that required divine spellcasting, it would be rather cruel to suddenly deprive them of it...

Yeah, that's a toughie. What might work would be to specify that even if you enter at a higher level, you still need to have, say, at least one mystery of a lower level before you can learn a higher level mystery.

As for the PrCening, I think it would be fine (and a nice twist) to actually allow them to qualify for "divine caster level x" and "able to cast xth level divine spells" PrCs, and let them stack. Since they never transform them into spell-like and supernatural abilities, shouldn't be a problem.

Would I be able to get a PEACH on the Demon Corsair?

[Vaynor]

I'm working on my entry for this right now, gish type with strength based casting.


Question: does the PrC have to use actual spells, or is utilizing magic in some fashion enough?

[Dante & Vergil]

I'm working on my entry for this right now, gish type with strength based casting.


Question: does the PrC have to use actual spells, or is utilizing magic in some fashion enough?

I'm sure any magic is fine. Look at the Geomancer.

[ErrantX]

I'm working on my entry for this right now, gish type with strength based casting.


Question: does the PrC have to use actual spells, or is utilizing magic in some fashion enough?

As Dante & Virgil said, any magic is fine so long as it doesn't advance a different class's casting.

-X

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

As Dante & Virgil said, any magic is fine so long as it doesn't advance a different class's casting.

True. It's in the Inferno, canto XII, line 117.

Really.

[Dante & Vergil]

True. It's in the Inferno, canto XII, line 117.

Really.

This is hillarious and awsome!
Edit:It's been sigged!

[Vaynor]

There we go, done with my entry. Thoughts/criticism would be nice.

[Kellus]

Hellfire Blade

Actually a really cool idea. You might want to cite Fiendish Codex II for people that don't actually know what hellfire is, though.

Hellfire Infusion is nice, although I don't think DR/+x exists in 3.5, so that aspects sort of unneccessary. It's enough to count as magic. Also, how exactly do you split +3d6 damage in half for a double weapon? Also, it strikes me that your attacks should also count as lawful-aligned.

The wording on suffering is unclear in two places. I think I know what you mean, but clarify 'the timer resets'. Also, 'double hellfire blade class level + Strength modifier' is a bad way to write it. It could be interpreted two ways.

Hellfire resistance would be really really really REALLY cool if it could recharge hellfirt power when it reduced a hellfire attack to 0 damage.

Hellfire burst is cool, but the DC is written unneccessarily complicated. Just say DC 10 + 1/2 class level + the hellfire blade's Strength modifier. Also, I'd probably make this cost more hellfire power.

Hellfire blast is worse than hellfire burst in almost every way. Also, don't use 1ft. increments. The system works on 5ft. squares.

Hellfire wings is just cool.

I think I'd avoid new feats just for a PrC, though. Prestige classes don't normally have feats specifically for them. Hellforged steel is very cool, though, although I feel like it should have some token benefit relating to hellfire. Maybe if armors also provided 1 point of hellfire resistance and weapons dealt 1 point of hellfire damage on each attack? (Although you'd have to increase the price of weapons with it)

Overall, very nice! We were clearly thinking along the same lines! This is a cool class, although I'm not sure if I'd really consider hellfire power 'spellcasting'. I don't even care, though, because it's awesome.

Any chance I could get some thoughts or criticisms of the demon corsair?