GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Looks like I'll have to wait until I can enter something next contest, this one's proving to come together much less naturally than the ones I normally make. That on top of the fact that I'm working on about three other ones, DMing a handful of campaigns and maintaining PC's in a few other.

[ErrantX]

Looks like I'll have to wait until I can enter something next contest, this one's proving to come together much less naturally than the ones I normally make. That on top of the fact that I'm working on about three other ones, DMing a handful of campaigns and maintaining PC's in a few other.

Awww, no Megaman?

Oh well, I hear you though on the busy front!

-X

[Soup of Kings]

Baw...

I'm not smart enough to come up with something original. The best I can get is "Gun Mage"

Ooh, that's new and exciting. [/sarcasm]

Which sucks, because this looks fun, and I'm totally in a gunslinging mood. (I've been reading the Dark Tower over the last few weeks. I'm on Wolves of the Calla right now.)

[ErrantX]

Baw...

I'm not smart enough to come up with something original. The best I can get is "Gun Mage"

Ooh, that's new and exciting. [/sarcasm]

Which sucks, because this looks fun, and I'm totally in a gunslinging mood. (I've been reading the Dark Tower over the last few weeks. I'm on Wolves of the Calla right now.)

Maybe make a prestige class based on the style of gunfighting that Roland and his crew practice?

-X

[ErrantX]

2 weeks left of the contest folks! I hope to see at least a few more entries in here so we can have good spread to vote on.

Who else out there has something they're working on?

-X

[Samb]

Guns and the fantasy world just don't mix I guess. So far we have psionics, matrix style gunfu but no sniper type, or arcane/divine type shooters. I hope this doesn't mean that this PrC contest is losing it's luster, because I had fun with it.

I would still like a PEACH on my psi-shot revolver though. No one even mentioned the obvious references. Makes me kind of sad really.

[Bhu]

I'd try but my offline life has become suddenly complicated and depressing. Perhaps next month.

[Xallace]

Two weeks? Wow, I thought it ended on the 21st. Alright, more time!

So my first attempt at combining guns and necromancy failed horribly. I think the concept and flavor worked out (I basically compared social views on necromancy to views on gun control and said, "So they probably overlap sometimes?"), but coming up with actually interesting abilities was pretty tough. I wanted to come up with something more original than "You shoot negative energy from your gun. Maybe it makes zombies sometimes." All I could think of was that when you hold a two-handed gun in one hand ghostly or skeletal hands manifest from the air or ground to support and steady your aim.

So I tried a druid-marksman, and that went about as well. I got to "The guns are organic" and stopped. No, wait, I got to "The guns are organic and as such can grow or shift weapon types, don't pollute, and don't use ammo." Then I realized that wasn't a class, that was a magic item (a really sweet magic item).

So I may be going back to the divinely-inspired lawman with the crazy longarm skills. Dunno, but I guess gotta decide soon.

[Soup of Kings]

Maybe make a prestige class based on the style of gunfighting that Roland and his crew practice?

-X

I wanted to, but if I just make it revolvers and gunslinging, it's rather bland and unoriginal. Alternatively, I litter it with specific DT references, and it's an entirely new kind of unoriginal (Farther from cliched, more akin to plagiarism)

Both are bad, I ken (Reference!), but I suppose if it's not against the rules (Requesting clarification here) I'd go with the latter. The former doesn't seem "original" at all (It's just a class that uses handguns) but I think the latter could be fun. It would be openly influenced by King, though, and stated as such. I'm just too hare-brained to come up with something exciting on my own

For the moment, I'm gonna lie down. All this thinking is hurting my brain. I need an astin. (More reference!)

[Pramxnim]

I must say that the Rose Gunner intrigues me. I can't decide whether the class is overpowered or not, but it's definitely got something interesting and unique going for it.

At first glance, here's what the class offers:
- A HD upgrade (From what's usually a d4 to d8)
- A BAB upgrade (For most arcane casters)
- Upgrades in (usually) 2 saves
- Full spellcasting
- Unique Abilities

Yep, definitely an upgrade from base arcane casters. However, what's interesting is the mechanic which Arkdelta and his friend thought up to limit the class' power:

- Limited spellcasting per day (dependent on your Fort Save)
- Hp penalty for casting spells
- Cannot cast spells on oneself (including personal range spells)

The limit of 6 spells (of any level) that can be prepped at any one time opens up some insane amounts of cheesiness. Imagine slinging 6 9th level spells in 2 or 3 rounds of combat. This can be done at level 17th, soonest.
To examine the effectiveness of the hp penalty scheme, let us assume a Wizard 7/Rose Gunner 10 with 16 Constitution (very feasible with a 12 or 14 starting Con) has on average 111 hps, enough to do some serious gunslinging with an ally healing him (though 6 9th level spells would still cost him 45 hps, a considerable amount given his max).


The destruction of spell slots per day also make playing Wizards even more appealing than Sorcs (since they can know more spells), and doesn't help out the underdog (not to mention Sorcs get a slower spell progression).

The Fort Save mechanic is a good way to limit the number of spells that can be cast, but I believe a further penalty for failing the save should be implemented (like the fatigued status) to prevent people from just trying till they get that natural 20 (also you should state specifically that a natural 20 is not an automatic success on this save). Saves are not that hard to boost either. Most casters have an 18 or 20 in their Con at higher levels, and a cloak of Resistance +5 is only 25000gp. That's a +9/+10 to Fort save already.

Assuming a Wizard 7/Rose Gunner 10 with 20 Con and a +5 Cloak. They'll have a Fort save of +20, enough to guarantee them the ability to reliably cast 30 spells per day, and the potential to cast up to 54 spells per day (and all of them can be high level spells). This is... in short, very overpowered. Not to mention, with gish prestige classes, that Fort save can shoot up a few notches, up to the mid 20s range, allowing for even more spell-slinging goodies

In comparison, a Wizard 17 with 24 in Int (it's an avg score for any optimizer) can cast 44 spells per day, higher on average, but they're limited to only a few high level spells per day.



I think, in order to limit the amount of high level spells that can be prepared each day, you could add a rule that says the Rose Gunner may only prepare a number of spells of the highest level he can cast equal to his Con modifier per day. This limit also applies to his other spells as well, but for each spell level lower than the highest spell level he can cast, the limit increases by 1 (So a Wizard 7/Rose Gunner 10 with 18 Constitution can prepare up to a maximum of 4 9th level spells per day, 5 8th level spells, 6 7th level spells and so on).
Special: This limit does not apply to spells of 4th level or lower.


Finally, some comments on the unique abilities the class gets:

Pain Metamagic: How is metamagic handled before this ability is gained? Do you prepare a metamagicked spell beforehand? What about Sorcs who can do this before entering the class?

The Rose Gun ability states that you make Ranged Attacks with the gun but that the spell bullets are Ranged Touch Attacks. So which is it that you make? Making them all Ranged Attacks would be a serious nerf that would justify all the other abilities methinks. If you do so, I'd suggest handling Area effects by making one Attack Roll and seeing which ACs are hit with the attack.

If you decide instead to make all the Rose Gunner spells Ranged Touch Attacks, I would have to say his other abilities need to be nerfed. Either lower the HD to d6 (to prevent massive high level spell spamming) or implement a limit on high-level spellcasting. In addition, the good Reflex save probably should be removed (it can be represented by Rose Gunner's Accuracy) and a caster level or two should be lost to the class (most likely at entry and/or at 5th level). Area effects should be handled the way they always have been if using this variant (i.e. people make saves instead of you making a Ranged Touch Attack).

Really nice class, though. Just... I think it needs a bit of toning down.

[HeavySleeper]

So I tried a druid-marksman, and that went about as well. I got to "The guns are organic" and stopped. No, wait, I got to "The guns are organic and as such can grow or shift weapon types, don't pollute, and don't use ammo." Then I realized that wasn't a class, that was a magic item (a really sweet magic item).

Please, if you don't make the class, at least make the item. It was the "don't pollute" part that really got me. I'm imagining some sort of druidic gunman who opposes people on the grounds that their excessive use of ammunition is hurting and polluting the environment.

[TSED]

Guns and the fantasy world just don't mix I guess. So far we have psionics, matrix style gunfu but no sniper type, or arcane/divine type shooters. I hope this doesn't mean that this PrC contest is losing it's luster, because I had fun with it.

The whole 'don't mix well' thing is the crux of the problem, I feel. I'm thinking next one will get a better turn out, assuming the theme is easier to use.

I would still like a PEACH on my psi-shot revolver though. No one even mentioned the obvious references. Makes me kind of sad really.

A little embarrassing, but I haven't got a clue how to read psionics, so I always skip over anything that has the word 'power points' show up. Bad habit, sorry.


THAT BEING SAID: I am going to go re-read my class and maybe perform minor tweaks to what I need. I was more channeling old-wild-west when I wrote it, let's channel some more Matrix in and re-do.


To the necromancy-gun-guy: How about using undead as ammunition? Nothing's going to freak a guy out more than getting shot, and then finding the bullet wiggling around looking for vitals.

So we've got:
1) Negative energy
2) Spectral hands aim-steadying
3) Makes zombies sometimes
4) Undead Ammunition
5) ?
5 level prestige class is pretty standard, but we can do more. Hmm.

1) Exhaustion-type effects are common in necromancy. Exhaustion, Fatigue, etc.
2) So is fear.
3) Paralyzation and Blindness / Deafness at 3rd level. Feel like making a note here.
4) Could add in 'shoot a gun and imbue the bullet with a spell you are casting.' Maybe upgrade it to 'at higher levels, skips SR if it hits.'
5) Some sort of undead-controlling mind-burrowing bullet.

Basically, look at what necromancy IS and then try to do some effects with that and guns in mind. Dangnabbit, you got me wanting to run with your idea a bit now.

[Samb]

I'm a bit conflicted about rose gun. I'll start with the bad first.

Losing hp on each shot seems a bit harsh especially when you are just starting out and had d4s from your seed class. Having your gun do all the casting of all your spells brings up some issues as well such as:

no self buffs: again i find this harsh. A caster should be able to rely on his spells to provide with a boost.

spells requiring concentration checks to maintain: It is written as no concentration checks needed. What does this mean exactly? The spell stops the instant it is discharged? Or is it always on and never requires a check to maintain it? Either or it is rather broken.

The parameters of the spells cast from the gun need to be more specific, or it will be open to too much interpretation.

Reloading: full round action does it provoke an AoO? Anything make it faster? Does the fort save accumulate throughout the day or each encounter? When does it reset? How long are you dazed for if you fail (i can't assume one round unless you say so)? Why even have a fort save for reloading?

Shots: This does use up spell slots right? Or can you just put whatever spells you picked the night before/ cast spontaneously? The reason I am confused is because you said there is no limit to how many times you can reload, which makes it sound like no spell slots where used.


Gunner's celerity: I don't see this jiving very well with this class. Using a rose gun you don't have to worry about arcane spell failure and yet you have an ability that is not usable if wearing heavy armor. Seems out of place.







and now the good:
Full caster level: might be too good, if you catch my drift.
Pain metamagic: nice capstone, but does it take up a higher level slot as well?


I think, as written this class is still incomplete. Many things about the gun still needs to be defined. I don't mean to sound overly critical but it doesn't really feel all that different from an evoker fluff wise.

[Samb]

The whole 'don't mix well' thing is the crux of the problem, I feel. I'm thinking next one will get a better turn out, assuming the theme is easier to use.



A little embarrassing, but I haven't got a clue how to read psionics, so I always skip over anything that has the word 'power points' show up. Bad habit, sorry.


THAT BEING SAID: I am going to go re-read my class and maybe perform minor tweaks to what I need. I was more channeling old-wild-west when I wrote it, let's channel some more Matrix in and re-do.


To the necromancy-gun-guy: How about using undead as ammunition? Nothing's going to freak a guy out more than getting shot, and then finding the bullet wiggling around looking for vitals.

So we've got:
1) Negative energy
2) Spectral hands aim-steadying
3) Makes zombies sometimes
4) Undead Ammunition
5) ?
5 level prestige class is pretty standard, but we can do more. Hmm.

1) Exhaustion-type effects are common in necromancy. Exhaustion, Fatigue, etc.
2) So is fear.
3) Paralyzation and Blindness / Deafness at 3rd level. Feel like making a note here.
4) Could add in 'shoot a gun and imbue the bullet with a spell you are casting.' Maybe upgrade it to 'at higher levels, skips SR if it hits.'
5) Some sort of undead-controlling mind-burrowing bullet.

Basically, look at what necromancy IS and then try to do some effects with that and guns in mind. Dangnabbit, you got me wanting to run with your idea a bit now.

Man, if i lose this competition because no one understands or likes psionics I'll be pissed.

I was hoping to see you put in slow time and/or time stop to cap off the matrix thing you had going but you didn't :(

I like your nerco gun ideas too, "bang! now you have cancer!!!" Very evil thing to do indeed.


Will give a PEACH for megaman later.



PS Adam Sharashka is a reference of revolver ocelot from the metal gear solid series the coolest fictional character to use two revolvers. D'nte Vespa is referencing Dante Sparda of Devil May Cry, and Killy is straight from Blame!
Shame on you for not picking up on that, you should have your geek status revoked.

[TSED]

But I didn't read those! I would've gotten them. Honest.

Kind of surprised no one did a ToB gunsman.


I kind of put an 'always-crazy-reflex' thing going on. Maybe I should have put Uncanny Dodge in there too, but it's already pretty crowded for abilities (with at least one per level, and often two).

Man, stop and think about how many attacks my class can get.

Start as monk.
4 Iterative attacks thanks to full BAB at higher levels.
6 from Greater Flurry.
7 from Rapid Shot
14 from dual-wielding, but you'll probably need epic levels to get enough feats for that.

I suddenly fear precision damage dips in this class. Luckily they still suffer from the main monk problem (ie: flurry of misses). Get one of those fancy 'modern firearms' pistols at 2d6 a pop, and go scout 4 / monk 1 / Bullet Storm 10 / scout [4 to] 9. 5d6 a pop, and assuming you got enough TWF bonus feats... Let's see. 7 [mainhand] + [3 from GF, 1 from rapid shot, 1 from iterative bonus feat] = 12 attacks. Assuming they all hit, 60d6 a round. (2d6 from pistol, 3d6 from skirmish).

Ummm.

Definitely need a really good tumble mod to get the 10' as a free action thing though. (+40 I think it was. Totally doable.) And luckily they can only reload one a round, so that won't be every round. Still.

Scary. How's that for a BBEG?

[Samb]

now now I never said your creation didn't have a lot of attacks, it's called bullet storm afterall. But something should mess with time just for flavors sake. Maybe it is the hardcore RPer in me but flavor matters to me.

Maybe something like temporal acceleration?

[Pramxnim]

If you look at the Cybernetic Soldier entry I just submitted (and edited), you'd see a ToB gunman right there :D

I'm just wondering why the first table turned out so differently. It was fine before the edit. Anyone know why?

I've made a few damage calculations for the CS based on ideal conditions (Using TWF, a Sniper Rifle on one hand, and a Light Pistol on another, assuming we took Extra Capacity twice so that the Sniper Rifle has enough bullets to sustain a full attack. Elemental Charged shot is assumed). This is what I came up with:

I/ Full attack with a Charged Shot with TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Haste, Rapid Shot:

6 attacks with Sniper Rifle (1 is with Charged Shot)
3 attacks with Light Pistol

Deals:
24d6 + 3d10 + 20d8 = 87 + 80 = 167 dam on avg, range: 47-334



II/ Overcharged Combined Shot:

Deals:
4d6 + 1d10 + 40d8 = 17 + 160 = 178 dam on avg, range: 45-354

III/ Quad Shot:

Deals:
24d6 + 3d10 + 56d6 = 87 + 168 = 255 dam on avg, range: 83-510

IV/ Split Shot:

Deals:
4d6 + 10d8 = 52 dam on avg to 1 target, range: 14-104
Hits 3 targets for a total of 156 dam on avg, range: 42-312


The damage can be PRETTY high, although very unlikely. This is also at the higher end of optimization, and won't realistically be seen in normal play. Belts of Battle won't be as effective in trying to break this class, since it can't continuously produce that damage output (reloading time, charging time etc.).

What do you guys think? Is the damage output too high? Are the abilities too loaded?

[TSED]

The attacks and the reflexes were two different thoughts.


BUT: That +reflex +ac-vs-missile-weapons was supposed to be a bullet-timey thing. If you don't like it just mentally replace it in your head with something with bigger effects for a short duration. :P


... Alternate class feature for a prestige class?


@Pramxmin: Heh.

[Pramxnim]

@ Samb: Thanks for offering to PEACH my class. To show my appreciation, I'll do a rundown of yours as well :D. I must admit I didn't really look at it close enough since it was Psionics (After a stunt a player I know tried to pull with an Incarnate Shadow Creature Warforged Psychic Warrior 2/Fighter 2/Monk 2 with Expansion and Little Red Raiding Hood stuff, my group's become veeeeeery paranoid of Psionics. Not to mention the various broken builds that one of my friend keeps coming up that involves Psionics). But anyways:

Requirements: Are too high. Your class needs 6 feats by level 6 (Point Blank Shot is a prerequisite for Rapid Shot). This severely limits the entry, no? The skill requirement and BAB requirement disagree a bit (skill suggests that you need to be level 5, but BAB means you need to be level 6 for a straight Psychic Warrior before taking this class), but that's ok. I've seen such requirements elsewhere as well. No problem about that there. I'd just suggest you lower the feat requirements a bit.

The table looks a bit messy. I suggest you make a separate table for the manifester level increase, or add another column to show that.

Psi-Gun: The wording of this ability disagrees with itself. First you say Swift Bolt, then you mention Swift Creation. I believe this to be a typo, just like when you used "shot" instead of "shoot" when mentioning the use of normal bullets with a Psi-Gun.
The ability itself has a good foundation. I like the fact that the Psi-Gun is independent of bullets. I'd hate to keep track of bullets anyways.

Revolver Upgrades: In order to prevent some unneeded confusion, I'd suggest you include the initial statistics of a Psi-Gun in the ability description itself instead of putting it here. By that I mean you should list things like "The starting pistol has six chambers etc.". The mechanics of how a Psi-Gun functions should be well-established before you wish to improve upon them.
More unique Revolver Upgrades would be fantastic.
The Shot Speed Upgrade also renders Rapid Shot useless before it is taken. I don't think players want to take a useless feat before entering a PrC. This should allow you to remove Rapid Shot from the prerequisites without causing any problem at all.

Greater Bolt and Perfect Bolt are fine. Don't they count as Magic for overcoming DR as well?

Shot selection is quite wonky and the table doesn't help. What you've listed on the table are the powers required to learn the shots. It would take a few cross-readings to realize.
I would recommend putting the shot names instead of the power names. Also, you need to put somewhere in the table that you get the Dislocator and Coup de Grace qualities. Put them as separate abilities instead of in the same place as Shot selection.

The 10th level ability listed on the table has Power: Bend Reality, but that is not used at all in the final class. You should fix this methinks.
Are you giving the powers required for the Shots as bonus Powers Known? Or are they just requirements for the Shots? If it's the latter, then you can list it as a prerequisite to take the shot, and format Shot Selection so that it resembles Revolver Upgrades more.

You could also do what I did and adapt Krimm Blackleaf's most coherent format used in a lot of his homebrew where you get a list of special abilities that each have prerequisites that you may choose. With a healthy amount of those, each Psi-Shot Revolver created will be unique.

What I'm basically suggesting is to make Shot Selection like Revolver Upgrade, a choice of abilities that may be chosen at odd levels (and maybe even at 10th, cause you need a capstone, kinda). Add a few more Shots that are based off of powers, clean up the display so that each ability has a clear prerequisite in its description, and you're golden.


PS: I'd make the skill points 4+Int, since the class is not really that geared towards being a skill monkey. Just my 2 copper pieces there.

PS2: I just noticed that you never mentioned anything regarding infusing your shots with Powers. That ability seems to really conflict with Shot Selection, as they are basically the same thing (but Shot Selection has a few extra goodies attached).

EDIT: I just noticed that a lot of the powers included in Shot Selection are not Psy War powers, whereas Psy War is the most obvious choice for entry into this class (due to the amount of feats needed). You would be really limiting the class if that were so. giving them those powers as bonus powers known would be a bit too strong. If you do that, I suggest cutting down on the existing manifesting class increase in terms of PP/Powers Known (but have a method of increasing Manifesting Level to overcome Psionic Resistance for example).



@TSED: No problemo. I just wanted to clear it up. Will put up a PEACH for the Bullet Storm a bit later.

[TSED]

Sorry, I was in a time crunch and was responding to "well the last class I just put up was ToB!"

What I was hoping to convey (you're totally right, sorry) was "If you open your mouth and aren't looking, you'll somehow find your foot in it."

[Xallace]

Please, if you don't make the class, at least make the item. It was the "don't pollute" part that really got me. I'm imagining some sort of druidic gunman who opposes people on the grounds that their excessive use of ammunition is hurting and polluting the environment.

Ask and you shall receive! I'm working the class right now; Your post somehow kick-started the idea part of my brain.

To the necromancy-gun-guy: How about using undead as ammunition? Nothing's going to freak a guy out more than getting shot, and then finding the bullet wiggling around looking for vitals.

So we've got:
1) Negative energy
2) Spectral hands aim-steadying
3) Makes zombies sometimes
4) Undead Ammunition
5) ?
5 level prestige class is pretty standard, but we can do more. Hmm.

1) Exhaustion-type effects are common in necromancy. Exhaustion, Fatigue, etc.
2) So is fear.
3) Paralyzation and Blindness / Deafness at 3rd level. Feel like making a note here.
4) Could add in 'shoot a gun and imbue the bullet with a spell you are casting.' Maybe upgrade it to 'at higher levels, skips SR if it hits.'
5) Some sort of undead-controlling mind-burrowing bullet.

Basically, look at what necromancy IS and then try to do some effects with that and guns in mind. Dangnabbit, you got me wanting to run with your idea a bit now.

All good ideas. And you can run with it all you want, I'm glad I could kick-start something myself.

[HeavySleeper]

Ask and you shall receive! I'm working the class right now; Your post somehow kick-started the idea part of my brain.

Excellent. I look forward to it.

[Pramxnim]

The Cybernetic Gunner is all done. Rip 'er apart, guys!

[Arkdelta]

I have updated the Rose Gunner class to reflect comments on balancing and to clarify certain aspects which were unclear. Rejoice as gumdrops and flowers rain from the sky to mark our advancement on the unending quest towards a better creation!


To Pramxnim:

I’m very glad that you find the class interesting, and I think that you raised some very good questions, I’m glad for the feedback. Balancing a class that, at high levels, can sling 3 to 4 9th level spells is not something I have any prior experience with, so any help is much appreciated.

_____The issue with the Fortitude saves is a good point. I feel that the case you present for a character with 20 Constitution and a cloak of +5 fortitude is somewhat extreme as the class suffers from MAD (Constitution, Dexterity, and either Intelligence or Charisma, and its going to need at least 19 in the last department while). But I think that there needs to be a penalty that hurts even in a case where the character has effectively unlimited health, like having 2 focused healers in the party. Based on what you have said, we decided to increase the penalty for failing a fortitude save to reload. (Each time you fail a reload check, you lose the ability to load your highest spell level. This is cumulative, so if you can cast level 9 spells, and you fail two reloads, you can only cast up to level 7 spells.) Hopefully this will offset some of that, but this adjustment needs to be tested in actual game play (which I have not yet done).

_____>As for metamagic, it works the same as usual, though I realized that I should be more explicit about that. Wizards can prepare spells with metamagic when they load or reload their spells, sorcerers can spontaneously cast metamagic, but doing so increases the casting time of the spell to a full round action (meaning you can’t sling multiple spells when using metamagic). Pain Metamagic allows both to spontaneously apply one metamagic feat to a spell without taking any sort of action at all. I'll update the class to make this more clear.

_____>One thing that’s important to understand about this class is that the (usually) improved BaB is less an advantage and more something that offsets a downside (the fact that you now have to hit people with spells that normally you didn’t have to make any sort of roll at all with). That’s not to say that it isn’t an advantage in some cases (most notably, for ray spells which you had to hit people with anyway), but its to offset the fact that now, you can only curse a person if you can hit them. The improved health is somewhat similar, though it falls more into the “advantage” column than the “makes a disadvantage less bad” column.

_____>I decided to test the class out briefly using regular ranged attacks versus ranged touch attacks. Short answer: it didn't work out, not at all.

====

To Samb:

Shots: This does use up spell slots right? Or can you just put whatever spells you picked the night before/ cast spontaneously? The reason I am confused is because you said there is no limit to how many times you can reload, which makes it sound like no spell slots where used.


_____Indeed there are no “spell slots”, just the six spells that you can reload as many times as you can make the check. That’s pretty much one of the main advantages of the class.

Gunner's celerity: I don't see this jiving very well with this class. Using a rose gun you don't have to worry about arcane spell failure and yet you have an ability that is not usable if wearing heavy armor. Seems out of place.

_____ Gunner’s Celerity being inhibited by heavy armor has nothing to do with spellcasting. Its like the vast number of other reflex enhancing abilities in existence that don’t work with heavy armor because heavy armor inhibits movement too much and its an ability based on enhanced movement (like the Swashbuckler’s dodge bonus, or any number of Rouge abilities). I will edit the text of that ability to make that clear. One thing I really don’t want, and would hate, is someone taking one level of fighter, then Rose Gunner, then attempting to be gunslinger in heavy armor, that completely ruins the style of the class, and I wish to discourage that as much as possible.

spells requiring concentration checks to maintain: It is written as no concentration checks needed. What does this mean exactly? The spell stops the instant it is discharged? Or is it always on and never requires a check to maintain it? Either or it is rather broken.

From the Rose Gunner:

A Rose Gunner does not cast spells in the traditional sense, that is handled by the gun, thus the Rose Gunner does not have to make concentration checks to keep hold of a spell when distracted.

_____The key phrase here is “when distracted.” Normally, if you are hit by an attack of opportunity when casting a spell or casting in harsh conditions (like a Maw of Chaos or Ectoplasmic Shambler) you have to make a concentration check or lose the spell because you are distracted. This means nothing for the spells with the duration of “concentration.” That is entirely different, and I have edited the wording to make this more clear.

====

I really, strongly considered removing a level in their spellcasting progression, but then I looked at classes like the Malconvoker (which, by 5th level, basically gives you the free benefit of a 4th level metamagic on your conjurations with no downsides, at the cost of only 1 level of spellcasting progression), and I though otherwise. If you can get that kind of benefit without taking the huge penalties like life loss when spellcasting, having to hit people with each spell, and being unable to cast buff spells on yourself, at the price of one spell level, then it seems to me like taking a spell level away from the Rose Gunner would be giving the class too much of a disservice compared to certain other spellcaster prestige classes. That said, I’m still feeling very indecisive about that decision, and could potentially swing either way.

EDIT: The Rose Gunner now loses a level of spellcasting. I still feel very conflicted about this.

[Owrtho]

I rather like the idea of the rose gunner (though I haven't looked at many of the others in detail). That said, I feel like someone should make one based on Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha... I'm tempted to do so myself if I can get around to it. I like the theme for this contest though and wish I'd noticed it sooner.

Owrtho

[Samb]

@Arkdelta: you know what? Full casting is fine, since it seems you can't make use of a lot spells that buff or require concentration to maintain. You make up for endurance and reliabilty in exchange for versitility.

@Pramxnim: great feedback, I always thought my shot selection and powers would be confusing. I'll simplify it by just giving them 7/10 ML and bonus EK on the powers needed.

On megaman: I really enjoyed it but I didn't like the whole two gun thing. I personally don't see megaman using twin blasters, but mechanically speaking it is pretty nice.
Could you change your manuvers and stances known to show total known instead of how many are gained?
I liked that you had more upgrades than the ten levels allowed. It will ensure that every cyberntic gunner will be unique. I think you should set which element the elemental stance fires though as the megaman mythos states that how it should be.

I had a hard time understanding the charge shot. How do I charge it? You state that I can use swift, move, or standard but then say full round actions will not charge it. This has me confused because each turn you get 5 "action points" first that makes swift and move much more worthwhile and second contradictory. Not all actions are worth the same hence they should do the same unless other investments are in place (like feats). Also a full round action included 3 types of actions that you state charge the shots, so by definition you could get a fully charged shot by waiting a full turn. I would suggest making all charges cost one standard action with upgrades along the way and full charge withfull round.
And that leads to my next big suggestion. Make all cyberntic gunners weapons of legacy!!! When two of these PrC clash against eachother the victor can acquire an upgrade from the loser. That will full out the whole megaman feel to this class.

[Xallace]

The Redeemer is up.

I went with the druid/ranger idea, I thought I got some good mileage out of it.

[ErrantX]

I'm really impressed with the entries that have come in lately, especially the the Redeemer and the Blackened Soul Gunman. The Rose Gunner at first was confusing to me but as I reread it I was very intrigued by its mechanics. I think it needs some tweaking in the mechanics for the Fort save, but to be honest I'm not really sure what to do with it yet. It's something I'll think on before I make any suggestions or real critique. I do love the concept of it though.

The Nameless Gunman is a very classic and simple archetype for the gunman, something I was hoping someone would come up with and the Bullet Storm smacks of gun fu. Sadly, Draco Dei, you're killing me here :P

Good stuff, and we've got less than a week to go!

-X

[Lord_Gareth]

Once again, I'll be tossing my hat into the ring. Expect something from me in the next few hours/days.

[Samb]

Major revamp on psi-shot revolver.

Changed the requirement feats; they were really harsh before, especiallyy when you consider that Bolt is not on psiwarrior list of powers.

changed powers granted to scribing tattoos; this was confusing to most people, as they gained in manifesting levels but not get the traditional powers. This way they gain the ability to scribe the powers but not be able to manifest them as often.

Better defined starting psi-gun stats. Added full automatic option to upgrades.

Energy shot was taken out so now only burst shot remains. Energy burst effects are put into a chart to make it less wonky.

Added capstone: singularity shot. inspired by Blame! and Trigun (anyone get those references?). AoE death effect with no chance of raise on failed save, or massive damage and stun for 4-16 rounds. All at the cost of one level and life span. Thinking about making this harsher, need a PEACH on this one.

Glad to see more entries, i'll get to some feedback (if you guys want it that is) once I get to reading them.