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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    So, I'm starting a new campaign in which I finally get to be a player (yay!!) and I am taking Leadership. The upshot of all this is that I am being permitted to take a wyrmling gold dragon (for story reasons, I've been told) as my cohort. The DM is permitting me to build the dragon, so I'm a little lost as to how I should construct him. I figured I'd turn to you knowledgeable folk for advice.

    The party consists of a Rogue 3/Fighter 3/Barbarian 2, a Warmage 8, and my character, a Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 2 (yes yes, not optimized, I know, but LOOK at my party!!). I have access to most any book, but absolutely no Dragon Magazines.

    tl;dr- Pimp my wyrmling gold dragon.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Well, despite being the strongest of the bunch, he's still a wyrmling. So, not teribly strong and since he won't advance in age categories, he'll be even more weaker. Your best shot at his survival is taking ranks in Ride so he can avoid blows.

    Also, a better option would be for you to wait a few levels and take the feat Dragon Familiar, which would make him, you guessed it, your familiar meaning he'd get to share your spells and get some NA bonuses etc, which would help out.

    Entangling Exhalation is a must feat for anyone capable of using breath weapon.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Where can that feat be found, Draconomicon?

    Also, he'll be gaining levels alongside us, and I wanted to build him so that he can start towards a prestige class ASAP. What direction should I take him?

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Yup, Draconomicon.

    Also, which race are you? I forgot you can't ride creatures that are your size, so it would help out if you're a gnome, halfling or some other small races.

    You should suggest to your DM that instead of taking levels in classes, he lets you use the Gold Dragon class (I'm not sure where those are located, but I'm sure somebody will fill in).

    If not, as crazy as it sounds he should be an unnarmed Swordsage.
    Common sense is not so common.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    I'm medium (Dvati). Also, we don't use ToB (totally forgot that).

    Though... what is the Gold Dragon class? Just a racial progression for dragons? Cause... that sounds most excellent!

    As for his levels... I was thinking about something that would improve his already considerable battle prowess at this level (considering we're only level 8, he's more than on par with us at the moment). Maybe a level of Sorcerer for Blood Wind, then some levels of something to keep improving his melee ability (currently thinking some sort of arcane gish, like Abjurant Champion).

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Unfortunately, Gold Dragon monster class is from Dragon Magazine. And yeah, it's just racial progression from Wyrmling to Young Dragon over 20 levels.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Damnit. >_<

    You think that a Sorc/Paladin/Abjurant Champion would be a good level progression for the wyrmling? He's got a +4 Cha, Sorc gives some nice spells (read: some abjurations and Blood Wind), Pally gives better saves and martial weapon prof (needed for Abjurant Champ), and the Champ is a good class overall. It seems like a good way to get his casting running early, and a solid progression.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Well, if you want a caster, Cleric is a better choice. He'll be a better fighter than sorcerer/paladin/AC.
    Common sense is not so common.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Considering my party, I don't need a super-powerful fighter, just something that synergizes well with his innate powers.

    Though, I may consider cleric. I'm already pretty healing focused on my Archivist half though. Damn useless party members, making me fulfill every major role save skills.

    I REALLY like Blood Wind though. That's just such a damn powerful spell for a dragon. There any feats/spells that increase natural weapon damage?
    Last edited by arguskos; 2009-04-07 at 06:53 PM. Reason: Spot checks failed hardcore.....

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Improved Natural Attack.

    And Clerics are THE Super-Powered Fighters.
    Last edited by Gorbash; 2009-04-07 at 06:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm da Rogue!
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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    >_< DERP. I meant to say I DON'T need one. Wooooooow, my Spot check went straight to hell there.

    Anyways, Imp. Nat. Attack. Monster Manual, I assume? Any other good feats that give anything nice for natural attacks?

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    It's too bad Dragon magazine is banned. 320 has metallic dragon classes, 332 has chromatic. It's a Savage Species style 1-20 progression with the LA built in due to not every level giving more HD. I've thought for awhile now that a Silver Dragon Warblade could be neat to play. Half of the dragon HD count for advancing the maximum level of maneuvers you know plus the dragon side eventually gives you flight and the ability to assume humanoid form as spell-like ability. You can build much stronger characters, but I think it's hard to beat the awesomeness of a tiny dragon using sheer combat skill to defeat opponents, not brute force and size.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    This is a very powerful cohort. His hit dice equal your level and he normally has 4 la. He may outshine you all.

    Does he get PC-style stats or is he stuck with the all tens array before racial adjustments?

    He's viable both as a tank and as a skill monkey. For things like feat and equipment selection, he may have to choose between the roles, but in many ways he can excel at both.

    On the tank side he has 8 BAB, d12 hd, 5 attacks and stat bonuses. Multi-attack is vital. Power attack is standard. Look for pounce if you can get it. The damage dice are low and magical weapons are hard to apply -- look for damage bonuses.

    On the skillmonkey side, he gets 6+int skills and an int bonus, but an awkward list of class skills. Conspicuously absent are hide, move silently, bluff and gather information. Still, spot, listen and search are always useful, as is sense motive. It's probably worth maxing out lots of knowledge skills. There's a feat in Draconomicon called Draconic Knowledge, which lets you access ancestral memory like a bardic knowledge check, except that DCs are determined by how important the subject is. The creation of the universe is DC 10.

    When it comes time to take class levels, I might recommend rogue. It keeps the skills coming (with an expanded class set) and gives the bonus damage you need more than BAB or HP. You'll want to be flanking to give the party's existing rogue sa anyway.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Draconomicon is good.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by dspeyer View Post
    This is a very powerful cohort. His hit dice equal your level and he normally has 4 la. He may outshine you all.

    Does he get PC-style stats or is he stuck with the all tens array before racial adjustments?

    He's viable both as a tank and as a skill monkey. For things like feat and equipment selection, he may have to choose between the roles, but in many ways he can excel at both.

    On the tank side he has 8 BAB, d12 hd, 5 attacks and stat bonuses. Multi-attack is vital. Power attack is standard. Look for pounce if you can get it. The damage dice are low and magical weapons are hard to apply -- look for damage bonuses.

    On the skillmonkey side, he gets 6+int skills and an int bonus, but an awkward list of class skills. Conspicuously absent are hide, move silently, bluff and gather information. Still, spot, listen and search are always useful, as is sense motive. It's probably worth maxing out lots of knowledge skills. There's a feat in Draconomicon called Draconic Knowledge, which lets you access ancestral memory like a bardic knowledge check, except that DCs are determined by how important the subject is. The creation of the universe is DC 10.

    When it comes time to take class levels, I might recommend rogue. It keeps the skills coming (with an expanded class set) and gives the bonus damage you need more than BAB or HP. You'll want to be flanking to give the party's existing rogue sa anyway.
    Hmm. Good advice there dspeyer. As for the party, don't worry. The Warmage and the... Fighter (he changed to a Fighter/Dervish? I think?) are level 9 rather than level 8. I've been given orders to keep him reasonable and plan to make him a combat dude.

    As for his stats, I got to roll them up (and rolled AMAZINGLY well, 14, 15, 15, 17, 17, 18). His stats, after adjustment (and +2 for level 8) are as follows (in Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha order):
    Str 24 +7
    Dex 18 +4
    Con 22 +6
    Int 19 +4
    Wis 18 +4
    Cha 19 +4

    Given that block, I was thinking about a combat guy, who uses his talents to smite evil and defend those who do good (read: my party).

    As for his feats/gear, I was going to go with Multiattack+Improved Multiattack, Power Attack, and probably Improved Natural Attack (bite). Unless, there is a way to get Pounce that I don't know of (I can't find one, any way you know of?). Gear gives him a Amulet of Mighty Fists and something to give him some extra damage on attacks (maybe get that Amulet enchanted with vicious or some energy properties).

    As for skills, I was going with Listen, Spot, Search, UMD, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Disguise, Heal, and.... maybe a Knowledge skill? I've already got Dungeoneering, Arcana, and History maxed, I'll give him something else, maybe Religion (the Planes doesn't apply to this game, so ignore it).

    Concerning classes... yeah, I see your point. That's a good idea. Hmm. I need the extra damage, but don't like rogue for a dragon. Maybe... Fly-by Attacking charge fighter?

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Give him one level in Barbarian for Pounce, 2 levels in Paladin for amazing saves, then...go into a prestige class?

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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    As for his feats/gear, I was going to go with Multiattack+Improved Multiattack, Power Attack, and probably Improved Natural Attack (bite). Unless, there is a way to get Pounce that I don't know of (I can't find one, any way you know of?).
    Turns out there are many, many ways to get that.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    I'd allow the Lion's Pounce feat. A Gold Dragon does have at least a version of wild shape. It's easy to make a case for it. It's also not from ToB which has the most options...
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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Olo Demonsbane View Post
    Give him one level in Barbarian for Pounce
    Gold dragons are always lawful. They can't be barbarians.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Ok, Pounce seems pretty good. Lion's Pounce is an idea, but he doesn't have wild shape, so that's out. I WOULD give him a level of barbarian, but the alignments are overlapping. I can talk to the DM perhaps.

    Anyways, does a charger dragon seem alright?
    Last edited by arguskos; 2009-04-08 at 11:08 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Sorry for the double, but anyone else have any other thoughts about where to take a wyrmling gold dragon?

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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Ok, Pounce seems pretty good. Lion's Pounce is an idea, but he doesn't have wild shape, so that's out. I WOULD give him a level of barbarian, but the alignments are overlapping. I can talk to the DM perhaps.
    Give him Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws & Open Least Chakra. That'll get you Pounce with natural weapons, and a random bonus to Strength-checks.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Give him Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws & Open Least Chakra. That'll get you Pounce with natural weapons, and a random bonus to Strength-checks.
    ...is there a five second explanation of how soulmelds actually function? Is it as easy as "every morning, I bind X, Y, and Z to the correct bits of my body and TA-DA! I've got cool powers!" or is it more complex than that?

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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    ...is there a five second explanation of how soulmelds actually function? Is it as easy as "every morning, I bind X, Y, and Z to the correct bits of my body and TA-DA! I've got cool powers!" or is it more complex than that?
    That's...pretty much it.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Wyrmling Dragon Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by monty View Post
    That's...pretty much it.
    Yay! Then that's two feats, correct? If so, then it sounds pretty damn awesome, and like a winner.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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