[4e] Let The Games Begin...

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm thinking of starting a 4e campaign, and I have a pretty decent idea for it, but I'm not exactly sure how to implement everything.

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The basic premise is that all the PC's come from very different backgrounds, but have one thing in common. They, like countless others before them, have been whisked away from their home worlds, and are now forced to play in the mysterious and deadly competition known only as The Games.

The PC's would start at level 1, and early on, they are teleported to some sort of temple that is inescapable, even by epic level characters. Since they're new, they are introduced to the rules of The Games. The top of the temple has a number of portals that each lead to a different "level" and each of the levels is a self-contained demi-plane with its own unique set of rules. For instance, one Level might be a vast jungle, requiring the players to find several totems scattered about and bring them to the correct shrines. Another might be a large battlefield, where the players are forced to fight large-scale battles with other players, and only when one side's battle-standard is captured are they allowed to leave.

The Levels are overseen by a group of mysterious beings known only as The Masters. They appear to be humanoid in form, and come in all shapes and sizes, but all wear masks and all have near deific power. Because of The Masters, the gods, archfey, devils, and Far Realm entities cannot enter the planes in which The Games take place. They're like Sigil's Lady of Pain in terms of power, but unlike the Lady of Pain, there are certain places where their powers weaken. In these places, they are able to be injured or even killed. Prominent players can gain favor from The Masters by performing special tasks for them, since The Masters are all vying for power in a system only they seem to know. If a player curries enough favor with The Masters, they may even recieve the offer to become a Master themselves.

Most players don't know what kind of prize The Games have to offer. Some theorize that becoming a Master is the prize, while others think that the prize is freedom from The Games and their twisted rules. Most experienced Players will tell you that the only prize is survival, that the only way out is death. Players may form alliances and friendships, but ultimately, all of them are competition, and in the right circumstances, anyone can be an enemy.

Into this strange and terrifying world, the PC's are forced, and they must band together if they hope to survive and unravel the mysteries of The Games and their Masters.

Each Level of The Games presents different challenges. Some are dungeons, others are a series of skill challenges. Others are arenas where Players are forced to fight each other, but each one is overseen by The Masters, each Master in charge of several levels. The goal of the PC's is to beat the challenges of The Masters and try to figure out just what is going on.

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The campaign goes through the three tiers like so:

Heroic:

The PC's are teleported to what I'll call "The Hub" for now, a general living area for Players to rest and recuperate in between levels. Here they are greeted by one of The Masters and the rules of The Games are explained to them. Here they get a taste of the competitive nature of The Games, since several more experienced Players try to help them, hurt them or trick them. As they explore The Levels and fulfill the challenges they start to find clues that something bigger is going on. As the PC's advance in level, The Masters begin to notice them as rising stars...

Paragon:

At this point, The Masters contact the PC's and inform them that in recognition of their skill and prowess, they are going to trust them with special tasks. The PC's continue to explore The Levels, but every so often one of The Masters contacts them and asks them to do something for him or her. This usually involves spying on or sabatoging the plans of other Masters. The PC's become the wild cards of The Masters, the centerpiece of their shadow war. As the PC's carry out these tasks, they learn more about the personalities, strengths and weaknesses of the various Masters, as well as clues that just as The Masters control The Levels, something even more powerful controls The Games. Things come to a head when one of The Masters asks the PC's to assassinate another Master. After the PC's carry out their mission, luring The Master into a trap that weakens them, and then using the opportunity to slay him/her/it, The Masters' conflict boils into open warfare, with The Masters rallying Players loyal to them and press-ganging Players who were either unaware of the conflict or who refused to get involved in it. The Games are thrown into chaos, and just as the PCs think it's all over, they recieve a mysterious summons...

Epic:

The PCs are brought before the true ruler of The Games, known only as The Grand Master. The Grand Master commends the PCs for figuring out the clues he/she/it has left for them, while at the same time scolding them for allowing The Masters to fight openly. He/She/It informs the PC's that they are now agents of The Grand Master, and will work his/her/its will within The Games. The Grand Master goes on to tell the PC's that order cannot be brought back to The Games until all The Masters stop fighting, but not that the Masters are all fighting each other openly, the only hope for peace is to kill them all. The PC's use what they've learned about The Levels and The Masters to lure them into traps like they did at the end of the Paragon segment. They have to be more careful now, since The Masters do not trust them, and are on the lookout for such traps. The war swings different ways as each Master falls, until finally the last one is killed. The PC's are then immediately teleported before The Grand Master, who reveals that the PC's have been decieved. It was in fact The Grand Master who contacted them and asked them to kill the first Master, because The Grand Master feared the other Masters, his/her/its servants, were becoming too powerful and might actually dare to defy him/her/it. By killing The Masters, the PC's have secured The Grand Master's undisputed dominance over The Games and all in them. He/She/It then offers each PC a choice. They can accept the role of Master and become a part of The Games, with the understanding that The Grand Master's word is law. They can be set free from The Games, and allowed to roam the multiverse at their leisure. They can become a sort of trainer at "The Hub" and teach the next crop of Players the rules of The Games. If the PC's want, they can also attack The Grand Master and try to slay him/her/it for his/her/its betrayals. If they kill The Grand Master, the demiplanes that contained The Games collapse, and the PC's and any other Players that survived the conflict are jettisoned into the Astral Sea, The Games over forever.

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There are a number of issues I have before starting this project. First, I've never DMed a campaign successfully, and I have no idea how to plan an adventure.

Secondly, I'm not sure how to stat up powerful beings like The Masters and The Grand Master, or railroading devices like the magic that prevents powerful characters from just Plane Shifting out of the dimension where The Games are.

Finally, these ideas are basically all I have. Can they be improved upon? Where do I go from here? How many PC's should I allow? What should the overall atmosphere and theme of this campaign be?

Any and all advice on this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[lordhack]

Your idea seems a little bit rail roady, but overall pretty good. When gathering your players, you should tell them the basics, about the games, and that they'll end up their, unable to escape for most of the campaign. This makes sure everyone is on the same page about the game, and won't be upset when their rituals to head to other planes don't work.

Adventure planning is somewhat hard to tackle with a single post, but your early adventures should simply be "The Games" which could be anything from a standard dungeon crawl, to some sort of sport that takes advantage of the characters' various abilities. Give an idea for the first Game you want to throw at them, the type of plane it will be on and such, and it'll be much easier to shape an adventure around it.

Simply put, don't stat out your rail road devices. They simply stop the PCs from doing what you don't want them to do. As I said, this works much better if you tell them so up front, so they aren't constantly trying to escape. As for the masters, take a monster of the appropriate level from the Monster Manual, give it a template if it's a non-elite or you think it fits, and refluff its abilities.

Number of players should be whatever you're comfortable with, 4-5 works best for 4e. The game already has a nice theme to it, as for ideas, as far as the overacrhing plot, what you need are individual adventure ideas, and back up ideas. For example, what if they choose not to kill the first master? It's not something you can easily force them to do if they don't want to, and could bring your meta-plot to a halt.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Your idea seems a little bit rail roady, but overall pretty good. When gathering your players, you should tell them the basics, about the games, and that they'll end up their, unable to escape for most of the campaign. This makes sure everyone is on the same page about the game, and won't be upset when their rituals to head to other planes don't work.

That makes sense. I got another reccomendation that if players do get access to plane-travelling power, instead of saying it simply doesn't work, have it transport them to another game demiplane. Say they use that ritual that opens a portal to the Feywild, instead of travelling to the Feywild proper, the arrive on a level made to be like the Feywild. It could be a valuable resource to traverse The Levels without detection.

Adventure planning is somewhat hard to tackle with a single post, but your early adventures should simply be "The Games" which could be anything from a standard dungeon crawl, to some sort of sport that takes advantage of the characters' various abilities. Give an idea for the first Game you want to throw at them, the type of plane it will be on and such, and it'll be much easier to shape an adventure around it.

That was my plan.

Simply put, don't stat out your rail road devices. They simply stop the PCs from doing what you don't want them to do. As I said, this works much better if you tell them so up front, so they aren't constantly trying to escape. As for the masters, take a monster of the appropriate level from the Monster Manual, give it a template if it's a non-elite or you think it fits, and refluff its abilities.

I think that's a good idea. Being up front about what the PC's can and cannot do will smooth out difficulties

Number of players should be whatever you're comfortable with, 4-5 works best for 4e. The game already has a nice theme to it, as for ideas, as far as the overacrhing plot, what you need are individual adventure ideas, and back up ideas. For example, what if they choose not to kill the first master? It's not something you can easily force them to do if they don't want to, and could bring your meta-plot to a halt.

That's going to be an issue, I think. What IF they refuse to do the bidding of The Masters, or of The Grand Master? As I've currently set it up, the only penalty is that you don't get the boon from The Master that proposed the task to them. Sort of a "If you don't like it then you're free to say no. I'll just ask someone else to do it."

[AgentPaper]

That's going to be an issue, I think. What IF they refuse to do the bidding of The Masters, or of The Grand Master? As I've currently set it up, the only penalty is that you don't get the boon from The Master that proposed the task to them. Sort of a "If you don't like it then you're free to say no. I'll just ask someone else to do it."

"So, will you do this for me? I care not if you refuse, I will simply find another."

"We won't do it, you fiend!"

"Oh my, it seems you do not want my favor..."

Next day, they are thrown into a horribly stacked game. Player deaths not a bad idea, though the Master would interfere before a TPK. (By stopping time and re-offering) If players didn't die, NPCs they know and like, or at least their characters like, dies.

"Well, it seems you haven't fared very well without my favor, have you? Hmm? We masters have complete control over this realm..including mastery over life...and death. Perhaps you'd like to reconsider?"

If the players refuse here, the master attacks, is weakened suddenly for some reason, (the grand master did it) and the players kill him as an epic boss battle. "What is this? What happened?! My power...gone!...NO MATTER! I WILL KILL YOU FOOLS REGARDLESS!"

[KillianHawkeye]

I would say that if the PCs refuse the first assassination mission, have one of the other "players" complete it a few days later. Since I am assuming that you'll have to create a bunch of NPC personalities for the players to interact with up to this point, have it be one that they've known the longest. A friendly (or unfriendly) rival in The Games.

After this, the rival becomes the Grand Master's pawn instead of the PCs, except the first mission he gets is to attack the PCs for their refusal to do the assassination job. (The rival probably wouldn't be told that that was the reason, though.) And when the PCs defeat him, they get approached by the Grand Master to replace him, Sith apprentice style. By then, the chaos caused by the Masters' open warfare has become evident enough that the PCs may agree to help the Grand Master put a stop to it.

Or if not, have EVERY SINGLE OTHER Master try to recruit them at some point (since they are pretty powerful players by then). Eventually they will have to join up with someone, especially since the actual Games will probably grind to a halt. Then you can either let them help their ally take out the other Masters, or have the Grand Master try one more time to recruit them as his subordinates (but this time, they'd use their new position of trust with their Master ally to manipulate things according to the Grand Master's designs).

Simply put, there's a way to work it to run no matter which master they end up allying themselves with, and possibly even if they refuse them all or even try to rally the other "players" in an uprising against the Masters. In any case, more Masters will start dying one by one until only the Grand Master remains. Their confontation with him will be determined by how this part of the campaign plays out, as he could be a secret threat, an obvious antagonist, or a manipulative ally.

This sounds like a really interesting adventure, so please let us all know how everything goes!

[lordhack]

Sense you're going to have multiple planes any way, letting them use their interplanar magic to get to "lesser" versions of the planes that are within The Game seems like a great idea.

As for your problems with the PCs saying no, there are a couple of things. Agent Paper's ideas are all pretty solid, but that's really where your on the fly DM skills can shine. If they try to warn The Master they were supposed to kill, he can send them to kill the first one in revenge. If they refuse to kill any of The Masters, one might go mad, and start attacking other players of The Games. The PCs, being well known, come to the rescue. If that seems to cliche, maybe another team kills a Master and The Grand Master recruits them as he would in the original plot.

[Kylarra]

@Agent Paper- Having the Master stop an obvious TPK and such is just entirely too railroading for my tastes. Subtlety is the key.

I'd recommend something along the lines of: If they refuse a Master, they don't get the boon sure, but they'll encounter some other party who did get the boon.

Write out some cause-effect tables for your Masters. If the party helps <x>, then certain things will happen, otherwise they don't.

Eventually, they'll reach the point where remaining "neutral" is too dangerous due to the lack of support (most other parties they encounter will have the support of one master or another), much like true gladiatorial contests. At that point, they'll pick a master to support or start playing all the sides against each other, or possibly earn that TPK.

If they refuse to help the grandmaster, then just play it out like above. Kick them back into the games. They'll eventually have to kill the masters for their own survival or try to coerce one to conspire against the GM (pun intended), could be an interesting alternative ending storyline there too, depending on how attached they get to a certain master or another.

[AgentPaper]

Well, it's not supposed to be an obvious TPK, it should just be a rather difficult battle, significantly harder than many before, which will kill some of them if the players aren't smart. If the dice go badly, worst case scenario is they die, though, and since the master is trying to pressure them into helping him, of course he's going to intervene.

One of your themes is that the masters are powerful and in control of everything. For them to do that, that means they aren't going to let some puny slaves back-talk them. They'll pretend to not care, and that they could care less. (They're all powerful, so what do they care?) However, they aren't ALL-powerful, and they know that. Having someone refuse them isn't something they will take to kindly, and if they don't back that up, then they aren't doing very good jobs as villains.

In a normal campaign, that would probably be counted as railroading, sure, but one of the major themes this campaign has, by necessity, is that the players have no control of their fate. The masters are the embodiment of that, and having them "rail-road" the characters is an assumed trait your players will expect of them. You seem to be telling the players about this general theme in the first place (with the whole "You can't escape period" thing) so it shouldn't be a big problem for them, as long as you don't just go and TELL them they accept. You'll notice that the players always have the choice to refuse...and die. (enforcing the "the only way out is death" theme)

[Kylarra]

I still don't feel that that master should come in and save them. If you must use a railroad of that caliber, it should probably be another master that intervenes on the hopes of utilizing them. Emphasize the whole political rivalry thing, you've got players with a reason to strike back at the previous master now, plus the possible gratitude of being saved, perfect tools to use.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Quick question: why are the PCs adventuring together if the Games are so competitive? Is everyone assigned a team when they get there, or do you "register" them? Are there penalties for teaming? And do "players" work to undermine each other in the Hub (and what is to prevent assassination of your competitors?).

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Quick question: why are the PCs adventuring together if the Games are so competitive? Is everyone assigned a team when they get there, or do you "register" them? Are there penalties for teaming? And do "players" work to undermine each other in the Hub (and what is to prevent assassination of your competitors?).

I think the idea would be banding together for survival. One of the older players might tell them that banding together is essential when you're new, and that some of the challenges can get VERY nasty if you're on your own. I don't think there are any penalties for teaming aside from having to split whatever is found in the Levels (standard loot sharing.) I'd assume that players will try to mislead other players in the Hub, but outright violence is banned. Should someone try something as underhanded as attacking another player in the Hub, the Masters themselves have been known to appear and kill the offender. In the Levels though, PvP is totally tolerated, and in some places even encouraged by some particularly vicious Masters.

Should there be more incentive for banding together?

[Oracle_Hunter]

I think the idea would be banding together for survival. One of the older players might tell them that banding together is essential when you're new, and that some of the challenges can get VERY nasty if you're on your own. I don't think there are any penalties for teaming aside from having to split whatever is found in the Levels (standard loot sharing.) I'd assume that players will try to mislead other players in the Hub, but outright violence is banned. Should someone try something as underhanded as attacking another player in the Hub, the Masters themselves have been known to appear and kill the offender. In the Levels though, PvP is totally tolerated, and in some places even encouraged by some particularly vicious Masters.

Should there be more incentive for banding together?

Sounds pretty solid. How do the Masters monitor the Hub? Can it be circumvented? Has it ever been circumvented?

And what about commerce? Are the necessities (food, shelter, clothing, sanitation) supplied by the Masters for free, or must it be won? How is it provided?

IMHO, I'd make the First Task be a standardized weeding-out mission, which has a Meal Token (or perhaps Player Badge) as the reward; the badge is needed to gain those above necessities. Yeah, it's railroad-y but it also makes a lot of sense from the Master's point of view - uppity newbies starve to death.

Commerce is very important for a closed society like the Hub, since even if there is no formal economy, people will begin an informal economy where goods (spare loot, old weapons and armor) and services (smithing, ritual casting, prostitution) are available. It may be on the Gold Standard, or it may be completely barter-based. In any case, this will quickly become very important to your PCs.

As for teaming up, I think a "gentle word of advice" from the Master (or even The Master of Petitioners - someone in charge of orienting newcomers and providing basic services) will be enough. In general, players are pretty tolerant about being bound together - but there should still be a reason.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Sounds pretty solid. How do the Masters monitor the Hub? Can it be circumvented? Has it ever been circumvented?

As I said, the Masters have Lady of Pain level power except in specific areas or under specific circumstances. They'd immediately know if there was a disturbance in the Hub, and would either have their agents break it up, or make a personal appearance to stop it. When a Master appears, everyone stops what they're doing and pays attention. It would be interesting to see if perhaps the Hub's security had been beaten. A clue like that might help the PC's understand that as powerful as the Masters are, they're not all-powerful.

And what about commerce? Are the necessities (food, shelter, clothing, sanitation) supplied by the Masters for free, or must it be won? How is it provided?

IMHO, I'd make the First Task be a standardized weeding-out mission, which has a Meal Token (or perhaps Player Badge) as the reward; the badge is needed to gain those above necessities. Yeah, it's railroad-y but it also makes a lot of sense from the Master's point of view - uppity newbies starve to death.

Commerce is very important for a closed society like the Hub, since even if there is no formal economy, people will begin an informal economy where goods (spare loot, old weapons and armor) and services (smithing, ritual casting, prostitution) are available. It may be on the Gold Standard, or it may be completely barter-based. In any case, this will quickly become very important to your PCs.

These are VERY good ideas. That's exactly what I had in mind. Some players "retired" after becoming powerful enough that the newbies don't mess with them, and set themselves up as merchants in the Hub, taking loot and salvage that younger players dredge up from the Levels, and selling them to other players.

I especially like the idea that they have to participate at least once or twice to be allowed basic amenities in the Hub. I'll probably throw in a horror story about a new player who refused to take part for moral reasons, and he starved to death since the Masters were unsympathetic to his plight. It'd help explain the hopelessness the more experienced players feel and just how amoral and cruel the Masters can be.

The catch is that The Masters only provide the most basic of necessities. They give the characters meals, they provide modest rooms for them with the basic necessities. Like a cheap, but clean hotel room. The rest of the services comes from what enterprising players have set up for themselves. If you need something, one of these "merchants" can usually provide it for the right price. Some of The Masters look down on this, believing the players to be their prisoners, and they should only make do with what the Masters give them. That this economy promotes disorder in what should be the most controlled part of The Games' environment. The only reason they don't step in is because the other Masters disagree. They believe it builds communal spirit, makes things more interesting or simply that it's not worth their time to remove. The Hub sometimes feels more like an overcrowded city than some sort of temple, with the halls feeling more like city streets.

As for teaming up, I think a "gentle word of advice" from the Master (or even The Master of Petitioners - someone in charge of orienting newcomers and providing basic services) will be enough. In general, players are pretty tolerant about being bound together - but there should still be a reason.

Another good idea. I think that this Master of Petitioners, however, should be one of those "retired" players, rather than an actual master. I like the idea of them being called "petitioners" too.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Another good idea. I think that this Master of Petitioners, however, should be one of those "retired" players, rather than an actual master. I like the idea of them being called "petitioners" too.

How about making a rank for such mortals - let's call it Favored. So one of the more beneficent Masters (or perhaps a more Lawful one) had taken a particular shine to one of these Retired Players and perhaps invested him with some limited powers to aid him in his duty of orienting Petitioners.

It'll be an intermediary rank between Players and Masters; these enhanced mortals are often the first point of contact for Players seeking to curry the favor of the Masters. Makes the Masters more remote (and more mysterious!) while providing a stable class of important NPCs that the PCs can get to know.

Why, at Paragon there Favored can serve as Champions for Masters who become opposed to the PCs - tasked with causing the PCs downfall without getting the Master's hands dirty.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Again, a great idea, Oracle Hunter! You're awesome!

[Oracle_Hunter]

Again, a great idea, Oracle Hunter! You're awesome!

Oh, I loves me some world-building

You still haven't nailed down the issue of currency.

Spoiler

Show

Presuming the Masters don't issue currency themselves (possible - a special reward that can be converted into gifts from the Masters themselves?) a strict barter-system would make the most sense. However, it can be very awkward to run - a Gold Standard is so much easier.

Hmm... I think you have to go with a Token system. Have the Grand Master make the Masters play a game in which Tokens play a large role. To this end, the Grand Master secrets Tokens in the various levels and forbids the Masters from gathering them directly. This now provides some impetus for the Master's Game in the first place, and makes the Masters particularly interested in good Token collectors (e.g. good players).

The Masters should have "temples" in the Hub where their Favored hang out and can try to recruit promising types. Different Masters favor different styles of recruitment - often based on whomever their strongest Favored is. At these "temples" Tokens can be given in exchange for Gifts or Boons from the Masters - special gear or some temporary power. Since Tokens are intrinsically valuable, they are a good medium of exchange for more mundane services.

As an extra feature, make the actual Master's Currency something that can only be made by combining a large number of Tokens together at a time in special circumstances - I'll call it a Master Gem. This allows small numbers of Tokens to be used as currency (rather than being immediately converted into Gifts) since Masters require a certain number of Tokens before they're actually useful to them.

So yeah, more ideas.

New Question: what are the laws of the Hub? Killing is out, but what about lesser violence? Theft? Deception? And do all violations carry a standard penalty, or is there a "court" one can try to sway?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Oh, I loves me some world-building

You still haven't nailed down the issue of currency.

Spoiler

Show

Presuming the Masters don't issue currency themselves (possible - a special reward that can be converted into gifts from the Masters themselves?) a strict barter-system would make the most sense. However, it can be very awkward to run - a Gold Standard is so much easier.

Hmm... I think you have to go with a Token system. Have the Grand Master make the Masters play a game in which Tokens play a large role. To this end, the Grand Master secrets Tokens in the various levels and forbids the Masters from gathering them directly. This now provides some impetus for the Master's Game in the first place, and makes the Masters particularly interested in good Token collectors (e.g. good players).

The Masters should have "temples" in the Hub where their Favored hang out and can try to recruit promising types. Different Masters favor different styles of recruitment - often based on whomever their strongest Favored is. At these "temples" Tokens can be given in exchange for Gifts or Boons from the Masters - special gear or some temporary power. Since Tokens are intrinsically valuable, they are a good medium of exchange for more mundane services.

As an extra feature, make the actual Master's Currency something that can only be made by combining a large number of Tokens together at a time in special circumstances - I'll call it a Master Gem. This allows small numbers of Tokens to be used as currency (rather than being immediately converted into Gifts) since Masters require a certain number of Tokens before they're actually useful to them.

So yeah, more ideas.

New Question: what are the laws of the Hub? Killing is out, but what about lesser violence? Theft? Deception? And do all violations carry a standard penalty, or is there a "court" one can try to sway?

I like the token idea, but would tokens = gold? For example, would a longsword cost 15 tokens, or would the token system have different values for items?

I think most of the basic laws people have apply in the Hub. Things like theft, fighting, rape, etc are outlawed. In the Hub, the Masters are like Big Brother. They see when you commit crimes. I was thinking maybe an equality system of punishment would be what the Masters use. You steal something precious from someone, then The Masters force you to give the offended party something you value just as much. You injure someone, then the Masters give you a matching injury, etc. The Masters enforce these laws very strictly, but that doesn't meant they don't happen. Even the Masters can't be everywhere at once, and if by some lucky chance The Masters are all occupied when a crime occurs, then it goes unnoticed. I don't know if prostitution should be considered against the rules too, since it IS the world's oldest profession. The Masters certainly have no issue with Players having sex with each other for free, but should they have a problem with it happening for money? If they did, then they'd at least make sure that the ladies in question are well-treated. A pimp slaps his girl, the Masters slap him back.

What do you think? Fair or inflexible?

[Oracle_Hunter]

I like the token idea, but would tokens = gold? For example, would a longsword cost 15 tokens, or would the token system have different values for items

It'd be the easiest way to do it. Actually make Tokens = Copper, so that all PHB prices work out. Yeah, that's a lot of Tokens, but maybe you have someone act as a "Bank" who produces currency equal to large amount of Tokens - good for mortal trading, useless for Masters.

I think most of the basic laws people have apply in the Hub. Things like theft, fighting, rape, etc are outlawed. In the Hub, the Masters are like Big Brother. They see when you commit crimes. I was thinking maybe an equality system of punishment would be what the Masters use. You steal something precious from someone, then The Masters force you to give the offended party something you value just as much. You injure someone, then the Masters give you a matching injury, etc. The Masters enforce these laws very strictly, but that doesn't meant they don't happen. Even the Masters can't be everywhere at once, and if by some lucky chance The Masters are all occupied when a crime occurs, then it goes unnoticed. I don't know if prostitution should be considered against the rules too, since it IS the world's oldest profession. The Masters certainly have no issue with Players having sex with each other for free, but should they have a problem with it happening for money? If they did, then they'd at least make sure that the ladies in question are well-treated. A pimp slaps his girl, the Masters slap him back.

OK, but boil it down to this - Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth. Much more imposing

BTW, Prostitution would not be illegal - doesn't fall under The Rule - though abuse and so forth would be punished.

I'd make local legends about The Man Who Cheated The Masters - someone who was able to avoid the Masters' monitors. Obviously the Masters discourage this legend - and most of the stories are made up - but it may provide some real hints about how you could get away with crimes in The Hub.

OK, next concern: Ritual Components. Can you gather them yourself, or must you get Residuum directly from the Masters?

That'll be it for me tonight. Post up more questions and a "revised" description of The Hub & Society sometime so that we can keep track of the new features of the World

[lordhack]

Another thing to think about, is what do the Gods think of this? This could be a non issue, but if you have a Cleric or Avenger or other divine character in the party, they may well petition their God for help, especially at higher levels. Can they influence The Games directly at all? If not, why? And why do divine characters retain their powers if they're cut off from their gods? You could say that divine power is cut off entirely, but one of The Masters with a similar outlook to that diety provides the power instead. Or, the gods might just not care, depends on how you run gods in general.

[KillianHawkeye]

Wow, there's been some great ideas here while I was at work! I particularly like the Player Badge, the Master of Petitioners guy, the Masters' Favored, and the token/barter economy. But I think each token should be worth around 5 gp or so, and round all the prices up to the nearest token. Yes, this would mean that a lot of cheap stuff will cost more, but I think it kinda makes sense that there'd be some inflation in an environment like this. It also dramatically cuts down on the need to carry around hundreds of tokens.

As for the Game missions, are they strictly voluntary? If the players don't want to go to the Game Level, can they sit out? Or do they get forced somehow? Is the only penalty for refusal the lack of victory prizes?

And what sort of Agents do the Masters have? It seems like the Masters shouldn't be walking around all the time enforcing all their rules themselves when they could have minions who do it for them.

An idea I had at work was similar to the idea of the Favored, a group of reliable "players" who worked as enforcers keeping order in the hub, but who are treated normally as players and are fair game on the Game Levels. This setup has a few benefits: First, these enforcers are chosen for their skills and because they all are interested in keeping up the status quo. They are all in favor of keeping The Games going as they are, because they like it and have gotten into a favorable position. Second, if the policing is done by other "players" the system becomes self-correcting, which is much easier on the Masters but also imperfect and gives the PCs a chance to get away with something if they need to. This will allow you to lower the crazy-high power level of the Masters a little (they're OVER 9000!!!), which means it takes less deus ex machina to start killing them. But the REAL benefit for the Masters is that it draws attention and dislike away from the Masters and onto the enforcers (reducing the probability of an outright uprising). It also allows the Masters to retain their air of power and mystery for most of the heroic tier.

And then you can always allow some of the PCs to become enforcers if they do well and ally with a sympathetic Master.

I really like this adventure concept, Zousha! Do you mind if I use it for my next D&D campaign?

[Oracle_Hunter]

An idea I had at work was similar to the idea of the Favored, a group of reliable "players" who worked as enforcers keeping order in the hub, but who are treated normally as players and are fair game on the Game Levels. This setup has a few benefits: First, these enforcers are chosen for their skills and because they all are interested in keeping up the status quo. They are all in favor of keeping The Games going as they are, because they like it and have gotten into a favorable position. Second, if the policing is done by other "players" the system becomes self-correcting, which is much easier on the Masters but also imperfect and gives the PCs a chance to get away with something if they need to. This will allow you to lower the crazy-high power level of the Masters a little (they're OVER 9000!!!), which means it takes less deus ex machina to start killing them. But the REAL benefit for the Masters is that it draws attention and dislike away from the Masters and onto the enforcers (reducing the probability of an outright uprising). It also allows the Masters to retain their air of power and mystery for most of the heroic tier.

But, the Masters are supposed to be disliked (and no care about being liked). And "Big Brother"-type perfect security is much scarier than Masters you never see. And the Masters are not at all concerned about uprisings - they can just cut off food, and kill the main agitators.

You could have certain informal "judges" for dealing with non-violent disagreements. They could resolve disputes which nobody dares to escalate to violence (in the Hub) while also allowing for more complex "contracts" between mortals. I'd say these guys aren't attached to Masters - they're just the "old men" of the community, with reputations for impartiality.

[KillianHawkeye]

But, the Masters are supposed to be disliked (and no care about being liked). And "Big Brother"-type perfect security is much scarier than Masters you never see. And the Masters are not at all concerned about uprisings - they can just cut off food, and kill the main agitators.

Hmm... well you have a point. Having nearly-omnipotent guys just appear to spank rules-breakers is scarier. I just thought maybe they would show up too often if they did everything themselves like that, and thus they became less sinister in my mind. IMO the Masters should be incomprehensible and uncaring, at least at first. And they can still be "Big Brothery" without sending the omnipotent guys to punish the criminals. I guess I just had a different idea for how things might work. It could just be my desire to have the Masters weakened, since having a whole pack of guys with "Lady of Pain-like powers" seems ludicrous to me.

And while I agree that the Masters wouldn't care if they're liked or disliked, they still would have reasons to make certain an uprising doesn't occur. They clearly want to maintain control over their prisoners, but the more flashy magic and unstoppable force they use, the more likely a resistance movement will form (even if it's ultimately futile). They'd do better to paint themselves as administrators or officiators rather than jailers and villains, and pit the players against each other instead. This is especially true considering that there are things scattered about that can either kill them or at least make them vulnerable. Also, unrest could have an impact on the Masters' internal political struggles, or whatever purpose is being fulfilled by The Games. If the players are rebelling, then they won't be playing. Maybe the Master's just don't want to be forced to kill them all and start over?

You could have certain informal "judges" for dealing with non-violent disagreements. They could resolve disputes which nobody dares to escalate to violence (in the Hub) while also allowing for more complex "contracts" between mortals. I'd say these guys aren't attached to Masters - they're just the "old men" of the community, with reputations for impartiality.

OTOH, the enforcers could be a self-appointed group within the Hub. They'd still behave the same way, but without the Master-given authority they'd become more of a wild card. It's interesting that there could be other such factions among the players as well. Kinda like gangs. Some could be neutral, while others could be more helpful or serve as minor rivals or antagonists.

[Oracle_Hunter]

OTOH, the enforcers could be a self-appointed group within the Hub. They'd still behave the same way, but without the Master-given authority they'd become more of a wild card. It's interesting that there could be other such factions among the players as well. Kinda like gangs. Some could be neutral, while others could be more helpful or serve as minor rivals or antagonists.

The one problem is that, if The Rule is used, any violence in the Hub results in pain/death - the Enforcers included.

I'm not so sure about unstoppable force = more uprisings either. If the force is truly unstoppable but otherwise passive, there is little reason to rebel & die. Remember that while the Masters demand adventuring, they don't interfere in the personal lives of people while in The Hub - so long as nobody gets hurt.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

It'd be the easiest way to do it. Actually make Tokens = Copper, so that all PHB prices work out. Yeah, that's a lot of Tokens, but maybe you have someone act as a "Bank" who produces currency equal to large amount of Tokens - good for mortal trading, useless for Masters.

That's a good idea. One or maybe several of The Favored operate banks in the Hub for the Masters. The tokens are traded for money. For some reason, The Masters seem to have an unlimited supply of mortal currency, and any tokens are taken by them at the end of the day. Not sure how they should decide which tokens go to whom though. Perhaps the tokens are minted with a symbol unique to a Master, and the Master only recieves tokens with his symbol on them? Or should there multiple banks, for each Master, and the more popular Masters get more tokens since more Petitioners use their banks?

OK, but boil it down to this - Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth. Much more imposing

...Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say.

BTW, Prostitution would not be illegal - doesn't fall under The Rule - though abuse and so forth would be punished.

I can think of a few players who might take advantage of that.

I'd make local legends about The Man Who Cheated The Masters - someone who was able to avoid the Masters' monitors. Obviously the Masters discourage this legend - and most of the stories are made up - but it may provide some real hints about how you could get away with crimes in The Hub.

Again, a great idea. I plan on having the various urban legends of the Hub be a major source of clues as to how The Games work. These will start off as legends, but will later be supported with evidence found while exploring the levels, until finally the Masters and later The Grand Master confirm them.

OK, next concern: Ritual Components. Can you gather them yourself, or must you get Residuum directly from the Masters?

Many ritual components can be gathered out in the Levels or bought in the Hub, and petitioners can make their own residuum by disenchanting magic items they find or buy.

That'll be it for me tonight. Post up more questions and a "revised" description of The Hub & Society sometime so that we can keep track of the new features of the World

I will as soon as I have time. It's a busy day today!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Another thing to think about, is what do the Gods think of this? This could be a non issue, but if you have a Cleric or Avenger or other divine character in the party, they may well petition their God for help, especially at higher levels. Can they influence The Games directly at all? If not, why? And why do divine characters retain their powers if they're cut off from their gods? You could say that divine power is cut off entirely, but one of The Masters with a similar outlook to that diety provides the power instead. Or, the gods might just not care, depends on how you run gods in general.

I think many of the Gods, especially the good aligned ones, think the Games are barbaric and would like to bring them down. To this end, they've managed to send some of their agents in as petitioners. But they find it's a very limited connection. The gods are able to provide power and speak to their followers, but they can't actually enter the Games themselves. The Masters are aware that some players draw power from the Gods, and they allow this, but the only way the Gods can influence the games is through proxies, like the Masters.

Other gods, especially ones who like violence or competition, don't mind the Games, and sometimes send their agents in just to compete.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Wow, there's been some great ideas here while I was at work! I particularly like the Player Badge, the Master of Petitioners guy, the Masters' Favored, and the token/barter economy. But I think each token should be worth around 5 gp or so, and round all the prices up to the nearest token. Yes, this would mean that a lot of cheap stuff will cost more, but I think it kinda makes sense that there'd be some inflation in an environment like this. It also dramatically cuts down on the need to carry around hundreds of tokens.

I think that might work too. The idea is that the tokens go to the Masters though, so the Favored making the exchange have to profit somehow. How?

As for the Game missions, are they strictly voluntary? If the players don't want to go to the Game Level, can they sit out? Or do they get forced somehow? Is the only penalty for refusal the lack of victory prizes?

All levels are voluntary. You can travel to the levels via special portals in the Hub whenever you want, but you have to complete the challenge of the level in order to return to the Hub. The only penalty for refusal is that you don't get tokens or badges to trade in the Hub, and you're not gaining any levels while sitting there.

And what sort of Agents do the Masters have? It seems like the Masters shouldn't be walking around all the time enforcing all their rules themselves when they could have minions who do it for them.

Most of the agents of the Masters are their Favored or players that the Masters or their Favored have recruited, usually for some sort of boon or the promise of extra tokens. The Masters enforce all their rules themselves because they are virtually gods in The Games, and those who defy them are punished severely to make an example to other uppity players. Also, the Masters believe that they are the only ones smart enough or wise enough to judge these conflicts. Mortals can make mistakes, or be bribed, and they can't be everywhere at once.

An idea I had at work was similar to the idea of the Favored, a group of reliable "players" who worked as enforcers keeping order in the hub, but who are treated normally as players and are fair game on the Game Levels. This setup has a few benefits: First, these enforcers are chosen for their skills and because they all are interested in keeping up the status quo. They are all in favor of keeping The Games going as they are, because they like it and have gotten into a favorable position. Second, if the policing is done by other "players" the system becomes self-correcting, which is much easier on the Masters but also imperfect and gives the PCs a chance to get away with something if they need to. This will allow you to lower the crazy-high power level of the Masters a little (they're OVER 9000!!!), which means it takes less deus ex machina to start killing them. But the REAL benefit for the Masters is that it draws attention and dislike away from the Masters and onto the enforcers (reducing the probability of an outright uprising). It also allows the Masters to retain their air of power and mystery for most of the heroic tier.

While the idea is interesting, I think it takes some of the fangs away from the Masters. The idea is that they're powerful beings maintaining this artificial society like a garden. When crimes happen, it's like weeding for them. They aren't judging crimes or being cruel. They're removing undesirable elements from their "garden." The idea that it takes deus ex machina to kill the Masters is a bit off. The PC's have to engineer the circumstances that weaken the Master's powers. It's not random chance.

On the other hand, out in the Levels the Masters are a lot more distant. That's when the enforcers come into play. The Masters use these sorts of people to make sure the rules of their level are being obeyed, and to kill any who try to cheat. A Master can't just teleport in like they do in the Hub, since their attention is focused on multiple levels at once, and they take a lot more power to maintain.

And then you can always allow some of the PCs to become enforcers if they do well and ally with a sympathetic Master.

That's part of the plan. Several of the tasks the PCs will recieve during the paragon levels will be little more than acting as the Master's ears, eyes and arms in one of the Master's levels, terminating cheaters.

I really like this adventure concept, Zousha! Do you mind if I use it for my next D&D campaign?

Oh, I don't mind at all! Go for it!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

But, the Masters are supposed to be disliked (and no care about being liked). And "Big Brother"-type perfect security is much scarier than Masters you never see. And the Masters are not at all concerned about uprisings - they can just cut off food, and kill the main agitators.

Exactly. That could be another legend of the Hub. The last time some idealist tried to lead a rebellion, that person was smote by the Masters and the rest of the rebels were denied food until they recanted for their actions. The idea is that The Games cannot be beaten by trying to break the rules. You have to play by the rules to win.

You could have certain informal "judges" for dealing with non-violent disagreements. They could resolve disputes which nobody dares to escalate to violence (in the Hub) while also allowing for more complex "contracts" between mortals. I'd say these guys aren't attached to Masters - they're just the "old men" of the community, with reputations for impartiality.

This is exactly what I was thinking. However, some of them aren't exactly impartial. Many a naive player has been swindled by other more experienced players who didn't take anything, but tricked them into a bad contract.

[Oracle_Hunter]

That's a good idea. One or maybe several of The Favored operate banks in the Hub for the Masters. The tokens are traded for money. For some reason, The Masters seem to have an unlimited supply of mortal currency, and any tokens are taken by them at the end of the day. Not sure how they should decide which tokens go to whom though. Perhaps the tokens are minted with a symbol unique to a Master, and the Master only recieves tokens with his symbol on them? Or should there multiple banks, for each Master, and the more popular Masters get more tokens since more Petitioners use their banks?

No... what I'm thinking is the "banks" just exist as secure places to stock Tokens. The Tokens should be unmarked - part of the Master's Game is that they need many Tokens, but the only entity that makes Tokens is the Grand Master - and he hides them in Levels and forbids the Masters from collecting them directly.

The Bank's only function is to allow the economy to function without people carting around wheelbarrows of Tokens to buy a Longsword. The Bank issues coins for Tokens - and gives out Tokens for coins. Presumably the Bank takes a service fee for converting Tokens to coins (but not coins to Tokens) in order for the Bank Owner to survive off this trade. The Bank should also have a mint that can turn precious metals into engraved coins.

The Masters may give out "Master Coins" as treasure, but those coins are worthless in terms of trade - in such a closed economy, gold is hardly as precious as a Magic Sword. You can convert Master Coins into Bank Coins, but at a steep discount - like 10% of value - since the Bank Owner does need more precious metals to keep making Bank Coins. This also turns the "traditional treasure" of GP into a farce, the dark joke of a Master.

N.B. even with infinite gold, the Bank Owner could not just "print money" (mint more coins than he has Tokens)... for long. The reason Bank Coins are valuable is because they can be redeemed (at a 1-for-1 ratio) for Tokens, which can be used to buy Boons and Gifts from the Masters directly - rather than adventuring. A "bank run" (everyone turning in their Bank Coins for Tokens) would turn the Bank insolvent if there are more Bank Coins in circulation than the Banker has Tokens in reserve... which likely counts as Fraud in the eyes of the Masters.

As a rule of thumb, you should never be able to get more Bank Coins out than you give Tokens. The "Master Coin" conversion is paid out by the Bank Owner's personal capital - which is why it is irregular and a "bad deal" for the sellers. But the Bank Owner is the only person who accepts gold as valuable, so whatever deal you get is the best deal in town

EDIT:

I think that might work too. The idea is that the tokens go to the Masters though, so the Favored making the exchange have to profit somehow. How?

The Favored can also pay the Masters for Boons (special powers) and Gifts (magical items) - but they probably get a better exchange rate than the rabble. Ideally the Masters need to spend Tokens to maintain their own power level, so they charge more Tokens for these gifts than it costs to grant them.

Another thought for the Favored is that, once it is granted to you, you need to deliver a certain number of Tokens per week to you Master to maintain your status. Fail and... well, bad things happen. This can also lead to bloodthirsty Favored jumping n00bs in the Levels to gank their Tokens.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Hmm... well you have a point. Having nearly-omnipotent guys just appear to spank rules-breakers is scarier. I just thought maybe they would show up too often if they did everything themselves like that, and thus they became less sinister in my mind. IMO the Masters should be incomprehensible and uncaring, at least at first. And they can still be "Big Brothery" without sending the omnipotent guys to punish the criminals. I guess I just had a different idea for how things might work. It could just be my desire to have the Masters weakened, since having a whole pack of guys with "Lady of Pain-like powers" seems ludicrous to me.

And while I agree that the Masters wouldn't care if they're liked or disliked, they still would have reasons to make certain an uprising doesn't occur. They clearly want to maintain control over their prisoners, but the more flashy magic and unstoppable force they use, the more likely a resistance movement will form (even if it's ultimately futile). They'd do better to paint themselves as administrators or officiators rather than jailers and villains, and pit the players against each other instead. This is especially true considering that there are things scattered about that can either kill them or at least make them vulnerable. Also, unrest could have an impact on the Masters' internal political struggles, or whatever purpose is being fulfilled by The Games. If the players are rebelling, then they won't be playing. Maybe the Master's just don't want to be forced to kill them all and start over?

They don't really paint themselve as administrators and officiators so much as they do gods. The thing about the Masters is that while they try to maintain an uncaring and impartial visage, nearly all of them are drunk on the power they have. Several of them would kill everyone in the Hub just because they could. Only the will of The Grand Master, as well as the machinations of some of the more benevolent Masters keep the morally bankrupt ones in check. This doens't, however, prevent them from exercising truly sick challenges out in their levels. One of them, I'm thinking, reads the minds of all who pass through portals to his levels, and then he twists and shapes the Levels to play to the players fears, their desires, their dreams, their nightmares. Some leave with their minds broken beyond repair.

OTOH, the enforcers could be a self-appointed group within the Hub. They'd still behave the same way, but without the Master-given authority they'd become more of a wild card. It's interesting that there could be other such factions among the players as well. Kinda like gangs. Some could be neutral, while others could be more helpful or serve as minor rivals or antagonists.

They wouldn't be allowed to use violence though, and the Masters wouldn't think them capable enough to prevent rule-breaking in the Hub. But yes, factions or gangs are a major part of hub life. Some gangs compete out in the levels, others try to make life in The Hub better, while others just like to harass new players. At heroic levels, it's the factions the PC's have to learn how to navigate, which prepares them for the more byzantine plots of The Masters, and the massive Xanatos Roulette that the Grand Master has in the works.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

The one problem is that, if The Rule is used, any violence in the Hub results in pain/death - the Enforcers included.

I'm not so sure about unstoppable force = more uprisings either. If the force is truly unstoppable but otherwise passive, there is little reason to rebel & die. Remember that while the Masters demand adventuring, they don't interfere in the personal lives of people while in The Hub - so long as nobody gets hurt.

Precisely!